Shouldn't all Evangelicals want Christian Nationalism?

[MarkSB]

I wouldn't place you in any community. Let us suppose Christians I am sympathetic to, come to power in your locality and that implementing their vision of society. They forbid pornography. They forbid Satanic Temples and obscene displays of a sacrilegious nature. They do stuff like this. It would be up to you to either try to seize power from them in order for these things to be freely done and consumed or you move. Why do you think Christians shouldn't have power or be in charge of any particular locality?

If this doesn't perfectly illustrate how un-Christlike your propositions and christian nationalism as a whole is, I don't know what does. So at the end of the day, it's all about gaining power - and not about following God, loving your neighbor and living peacefully with them, and having God and the Holy Spirit work through you to change hearts. In other words, its not about all the things which Christ taught - it's about worldly power and trying to rule over another.

This thread has reached levels of ridiculousness which I no longer have time for, and I think the point against christian nationalism has been adequately made. I hope that your heart turns back to God.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Let's examine that statement. Was there no difference between Christian and Islamic societies? While we don't live in an explicitly Atheistic society, are you saying there is no difference between the Soviet Union and Tsarist Russia? Can you demonstrate to me how all these things are the same despite looking and acting in different ways? Sometimes radically different ways.

They are all the same because they contradict Biblical principles.

Jesus was explicit that the Kingdom of God is not of this earth. Christians who seek to establish a Christian nation contradict this Biblical principle. Similarly, Muslims aiming to create an Islamic state also contradict this principle. Atheists advocating for a secular world devoid of God equally contradict the Biblical principle.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

I don't see how it's a strawman. You are advocating radical pacificism. Which by definition separates you from power and what you believe other Christians should do in how they interact with power. Pacifists have no say. Just as you have no say on whether or not someone wants to assault you or your family. You are powerless and have given in to what the evildoer wants and desires.

Here is a profound example of passivism throughout history, attributed to the founder of Christianity.

Philippians 2:5-7

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

 

[Vambram]

Here is a profound example of passivism throughout history, attributed to the founder of Christianity.

Philippians 2:5-7

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

Philippians 2:5-7 is an excellent passage of Scripture. I believe those verses ought to be understood in the context of verses 1-4, and also verses 9-11 of that chapter. It doesn't look like to me at all that passivism is the main topic of Philippians 2:1-11

 

[The Liturgist]

Even though, at least it seems to me, accusations of blasphemy got your Lord crucified?

Our Lord, God and Savior was falsely accused of blasphemy and did not resist these allegations, because all of this was essential according to His plan for our salvation - it was essential, for us to be saved, to facilitate His glorious triumph over death on the Cross.

Thus, it is not an apples to apples comparison. I would further oppose the death penalty. I merely am of the view that atheists and certain other religious leaders should be constrained in their ability to blaspheme our Lord, specifically, blasphemy should be treated in the same category as pornography and other forms of vulgar and obscene material, which can be prohibited or restricted in their consumption.

In the absence of a Christian regime I support the First Ammendment, which does not permit persecution for hate speech, but in countries that have legislation outlawing hate speech, I believe that Christians should use this legislation to prosecute people who slander or libel them, in particular Roman Catholics, who have been subjected by atheists, non-Christians, and most unfortunately, members of some other denominations, and non-denominational Christians, to incredibly hateful and slanderous or libelous material which also in many cases slanders or libels traditional liturgical Protestants such as the Lutherans and Anglicans, and the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian/Ancient Church of the East, often because of shared beliefs which may include the use of liturgical prayer, veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary, intercessory prayers to the saints, the existence of an episcopacy, worship on Sundays and observance of the holidays of Christmas and Pascha (also known as Easter), which are falsely alleged to be of pagan origin, or specifically with Lutherans, Orthodox and Anglo-Catholics, a belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

And ideally this kind of abusive language directed against any Christians, and also extended, in accordance with the Golden Rule, to other established religions, since a Christian nation would apply the Christian precepts of loving our neighbors as ourselves and putting charity foremost, and since treating people poorly will not incline them to convert, should be unlawful, particularly in the mass media. As it presently stands, entertainment companies wage an ongoing war against Christianity and other religions, by including remarks in their productions abusive of the Christian faith, particularly Roman Catholicism.

 

[The Liturgist]

By the way, to be clear, I am of the belief, also espoused by my friend Hammster, that laws ought to be based on Christian principles. I do not favor the creation of a Christian version of the Islamic Republic of Iran but merely a return to the respectful treatment of Christianity that existed across what at the time could be called “Christendom” until the 20th century, when the Christian religion began to come under organized attack from the government, media and educational institutions, starting with the rise of the Bolsheviks and the overthrow of the Provisional Government in Russia 107 years ago as of last Thursday.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Philippians 2:5-7 is an excellent passage of Scripture. I believe those verses ought to be understood in the context of verses 1-4, and also verses 9-11 of that chapter. It doesn't look like to me at all that passivism is the main topic of Philippians 2:1-11

Excellent point. thank you for pointing out. The chapter discusses imitating Christ's humility, obedience all the way to cross, (v3)Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4(v4) not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

By the way, to be clear, I am of the belief, also espoused by my friend Hammster, that laws ought to be based on Christian principles. I do not favor the creation of a Christian version of the Islamic Republic of Iran but merely a return to the respectful treatment of Christianity that existed across what at the time could be called “Christendom” until the 20th century, when the Christian religion began to come under organized attack from the government, media and educational institutions, starting with the rise of the Bolsheviks and the overthrow of the Provisional Government in Russia 107 years ago as of last Thursday.

Here is a list of conflicts in Europe over 250 years involving Catholics and Reformers. Europe never seen religious harmony.

• Pre-Reformation wars:
  • The Oldcastle Revolt (1414) in England[16] (sometimes considered to have "foreshadowed the wars of religion"[17])
  • The Hussite Wars (1419–1434) in the Lands of the Bohemian Crown
• Conflicts immediately connected with the Reformation:
  • The Knights' War (1522–1523) in the Holy Roman Empire[18]
  • The First Dalecarlian Rebellion (1524–1525) in Sweden.
  • The German Peasants' War (1524–1526) in the Holy Roman Empire[18]
  • The Second Dalecarlian Rebellion (1527–1528) in Sweden.
  • The Wars of Kappel (1529–1531) in the Old Swiss Confederacy[19]
  • The Tudor conquest of Ireland (1529–1603) on the Catholic population of Ireland by the Tudor kings of England and their Protestant allies
    • The Kildare Rebellion (1534–1535)
    • The First Desmond Rebellion (1569–1573)
    • The Second Desmond Rebellion (1579–1583)
    • The Nine Years' War (1593–1603)
  • The Third Dalecarlian Rebellion (1531–1533) in Sweden.
  • The War of Two Kings (1531–1532) in the Kalmar Union (Denmark and Norway)
  • The Count's Feud (1534–1536) in the Kalmar Union (Denmark and Norway)
  • The Münster rebellion (1534–1535) in the Prince-Bishopric of Münster
  • The Anabaptist riot (1535) in Amsterdam[20]
  • Olav Engelbrektsson's rebellion (1536–1537) in Norway
  • Bigod's rebellion (1537) in England
  • The Dacke War (1542–1543) in Sweden
• Conflicts after the death of Martin Luther:
  • The Schmalkaldic War (1546–1547) in the Holy Roman Empire[18]
  • The Prayer Book Rebellion (1549) in England
  • The Battle of Sauðafell (1550) on Iceland
  • The Second Schmalkaldic War or Princes' Revolt (1552–1555)[19]
  • Wyatt's rebellion (1554) in England over Mary I of England's decision to marry the Catholic non-English prince Philip II of Spain. Mary's repression of the rebellion earned her the nickname "Bloody Mary" amongst Protestants.[21]
  • The French Wars of Religion (1562–1598) in France[1][19]
  • The Eighty Years' War (1566/68–1648) in the Low Countries[1][19]
  • The Cologne War (1583–1588) in the Electorate of Cologne
  • The Strasbourg Bishops' War (1592–1604) in the Prince-Bishopric of Strasbourg
  • The War against Sigismund (1598–1599) in the Polish–Swedish union
  • The Bocskai uprising (1604–1606) in Hungary and Transylvania
  • The War of the Jülich Succession (1609–10, 1614) in the United Duchies of Jülich-Cleves-Berg[22]
• The Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), affecting the Holy Roman Empire including the Habsburg monarchy and Bohemia and Moravia, France, Denmark-Norway and Sweden[1][19]
  • Bohemian Revolt (1618–1620) between the Protestant nobility of the Bohemian Crown and their Catholic Habsburg king. This revolt started the Thirty Years' War, causing additional conflicts elsewhere in Europe, and subsuming other already ongoing conflicts.
  • Hessian War (1567–1648) between the Lutheran Landgraviate of Hesse-Darmstadt (member of the Catholic League) and the Calvinist Landgraviate of Hesse-Kassel (member of the Protestant Union)
• The Huguenot rebellions (1621–1629) in France[1]
• The Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639–1653), affecting England, Scotland and Ireland[1]
  • Bishops' Wars (1639–1640)
  • English Civil War (1642–1651)
  • Scotland in the Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639–1652)
  • Irish Confederate Wars (1641–1653) and the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland (1649–1653)[23]
• The post-Westphalian wars:[2]
  • The Düsseldorf Cow War (1651) [24]
  • The Savoyard–Waldensian wars (1655–1690) beginning with the Piedmontese Easter (Pasque piemontesi) of April 1655,[7][25] in the Duchy of Savoy
  • The First War of Villmergen (1656) in the Old Swiss Confederacy[23][26]
  • The Second Anglo-Dutch War (1665–1667) between England and the Dutch Republic[23]
  • The Nine Years' War (1688–1697)[2]
    • The Glorious Revolution (1688–1689)[2]
    • The Williamite War in Ireland (1688–1691)[2]
    • The Jacobite rising of 1689 in Scotland saw Roman Catholics and Anglican Tories supporting the deposed Catholic king James Stuart take up arms against the newly enthroned Calvinist William of Orange and his Presbyterian Covenanter allies; the religious component may be regarded as secondary to the dynastic factor, however.[27]
  • The War of the Spanish Succession (1701–1714) across Europe had a strong religious component[2]
  • The War in the Cevennes (1702–1710) in France[23]
  • The Toggenburg War (Second War of Villmergen) (1712) in the Old Swiss Confederacy[23][26]

Even if we identify a time of religious harmony in Europe, is the concept of “Christendom” actually Biblical? I have not yet found a biblical principle for establishing "Christendom".

 

[The Liturgist]

Here is a list of conflicts in Europe over 250 years involving Catholics and Reformers. Europe never seen religious harmony.

• Pre-Reformation wars:
  • The Oldcastle Revolt (1414) in England[16] (sometimes considered to have "foreshadowed the wars of religion"[17])
  • The Hussite Wars (1419–1434) in the Lands of the Bohemian Crown
• Conflicts immediately connected with the Reformation:
  • The Knights' War (1522–1523) in the Holy Roman Empire[18]
  • The First Dalecarlian Rebellion (1524–1525) in Sweden.
  • The German Peasants' War (1524–1526) in the Holy Roman Empire[18]
  • The Second Dalecarlian Rebellion (1527–1528) in Sweden.
  • The Wars of Kappel (1529–1531) in the Old Swiss Confederacy[19]
  • The Tudor conquest of Ireland (1529–1603) on the Catholic population of Ireland by the Tudor kings of England and their Protestant allies

• • The Kildare Rebellion (1534–1535)
  • The First Desmond Rebellion (1569–1573)
  • The Second Desmond Rebellion (1579–1583)
  • The Nine Years' War (1593–1603)
• The Third Dalecarlian Rebellion (1531–1533) in Sweden.
• The War of Two Kings (1531–1532) in the Kalmar Union (Denmark and Norway)
• The Count's Feud (1534–1536) in the Kalmar Union (Denmark and Norway)
• The Münster rebellion (1534–1535) in the Prince-Bishopric of Münster
• The Anabaptist riot (1535) in Amsterdam[20]
• Olav Engelbrektsson's rebellion (1536–1537) in Norway
• Bigod's rebellion (1537) in England
• The Dacke War (1542–1543) in Sweden
• Conflicts after the death of Martin Luther:
  • The Schmalkaldic War (1546–1547) in the Holy Roman Empire[18]
  • The Prayer Book Rebellion (1549) in England
  • The Battle of Sauðafell (1550) on Iceland
  • The Second Schmalkaldic War or Princes' Revolt (1552–1555)[19]
  • Wyatt's rebellion (1554) in England over Mary I of England's decision to marry the Catholic non-English prince Philip II of Spain. Mary's repression of the rebellion earned her the nickname "Bloody Mary" amongst Protestants.[21]
  • The French Wars of Religion (1562–1598) in France[1][19]
  • The Eighty Years' War (1566/68–1648) in the Low Countries[1][19]
  • The Cologne War (1583–1588) in the Electorate of Cologne
  • The Strasbourg Bishops' War (1592–1604) in the Prince-Bishopric of Strasbourg
  • The War against Sigismund (1598–1599) in the Polish–Swedish union
  • The Bocskai uprising (1604–1606) in Hungary and Transylvania
  • The War of the Jülich Succession (1609–10, 1614) in the United Duchies of Jülich-Cleves-Berg[22]
• The Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), affecting the Holy Roman Empire including the Habsburg monarchy and Bohemia and Moravia, France, Denmark-Norway and Sweden[1][19]
  • Bohemian Revolt (1618–1620) between the Protestant nobility of the Bohemian Crown and their Catholic Habsburg king. This revolt started the Thirty Years' War, causing additional conflicts elsewhere in Europe, and subsuming other already ongoing conflicts.
  • Hessian War (1567–1648) between the Lutheran Landgraviate of Hesse-Darmstadt (member of the Catholic League) and the Calvinist Landgraviate of Hesse-Kassel (member of the Protestant Union)
• The Huguenot rebellions (1621–1629) in France[1]
• The Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639–1653), affecting England, Scotland and Ireland[1]
  • Bishops' Wars (1639–1640)
  • English Civil War (1642–1651)
  • Scotland in the Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639–1652)
  • Irish Confederate Wars (1641–1653) and the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland (1649–1653)[23]
• The post-Westphalian wars:[2]
  • The Düsseldorf Cow War (1651) [24]
  • The Savoyard–Waldensian wars (1655–1690) beginning with the Piedmontese Easter (Pasque piemontesi) of April 1655,[7][25] in the Duchy of Savoy
  • The First War of Villmergen (1656) in the Old Swiss Confederacy[23][26]
  • The Second Anglo-Dutch War (1665–1667) between England and the Dutch Republic[23]
  • The Nine Years' War (1688–1697)[2]
    • The Glorious Revolution (1688–1689)[2]
    • The Williamite War in Ireland (1688–1691)[2]
    • The Jacobite rising of 1689 in Scotland saw Roman Catholics and Anglican Tories supporting the deposed Catholic king James Stuart take up arms against the newly enthroned Calvinist William of Orange and his Presbyterian Covenanter allies; the religious component may be regarded as secondary to the dynastic factor, however.[27]
  • The War of the Spanish Succession (1701–1714) across Europe had a strong religious component[2]
  • The War in the Cevennes (1702–1710) in France[23]
  • The Toggenburg War (Second War of Villmergen) (1712) in the Old Swiss Confederacy[23][26]

Even if we identify a time of religious harmony in Europe, is the concept of “Christendom” actually Biblical? I have not yet found a biblical principle for establishing "Christendom".

Red herring. None of these conflicts, 300 or more years ago, have anything to do with my main argument about the need to counter the secularization of historically Christian countries. (Also separately there is a need to protect Christians in majority Islamic countries, which at one time were also Christian lands, from the attempts of Salafists to exile, assimilate or exterminate them).

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Red herring. None of these conflicts, 300 or more years ago, have anything to do with my main argument about the need to counter the secularization of historically Christian countries. (Also separately there is a need to protect Christians in majority Islamic countries, which at one time were also Christian lands, from the attempts of Salafists to exile, assimilate or exterminate them).

Preaching the gospel is the only way to overcome secularization.

Mark 16:15-16

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The concept of "Christendom" cannot protect Christians in Muslim-majority countries or any other nation. Only Jesus Christ the Lord, can offer them protection. For those of us living in the West who are not facing such persecution, the best way to support our brothers and sisters is through prayer. We should kneel and pray for their safety and well-being.

 

[JSRG]

Here is a list of conflicts in Europe over 250 years involving Catholics and Reformers. Europe never seen religious harmony.

• Pre-Reformation wars:
  • The Oldcastle Revolt (1414) in England[16] (sometimes considered to have "foreshadowed the wars of religion"[17])
  • The Hussite Wars (1419–1434) in the Lands of the Bohemian Crown
• Conflicts immediately connected with the Reformation:
  • The Knights' War (1522–1523) in the Holy Roman Empire[18]
  • The First Dalecarlian Rebellion (1524–1525) in Sweden.
  • The German Peasants' War (1524–1526) in the Holy Roman Empire[18]
  • The Second Dalecarlian Rebellion (1527–1528) in Sweden.
  • The Wars of Kappel (1529–1531) in the Old Swiss Confederacy[19]
  • The Tudor conquest of Ireland (1529–1603) on the Catholic population of Ireland by the Tudor kings of England and their Protestant allies
    • The Kildare Rebellion (1534–1535)
    • The First Desmond Rebellion (1569–1573)
    • The Second Desmond Rebellion (1579–1583)
    • The Nine Years' War (1593–1603)
  • The Third Dalecarlian Rebellion (1531–1533) in Sweden.
  • The War of Two Kings (1531–1532) in the Kalmar Union (Denmark and Norway)
  • The Count's Feud (1534–1536) in the Kalmar Union (Denmark and Norway)
  • The Münster rebellion (1534–1535) in the Prince-Bishopric of Münster
  • The Anabaptist riot (1535) in Amsterdam[20]
  • Olav Engelbrektsson's rebellion (1536–1537) in Norway
  • Bigod's rebellion (1537) in England
  • The Dacke War (1542–1543) in Sweden
• Conflicts after the death of Martin Luther:
  • The Schmalkaldic War (1546–1547) in the Holy Roman Empire[18]
  • The Prayer Book Rebellion (1549) in England
  • The Battle of Sauðafell (1550) on Iceland
  • The Second Schmalkaldic War or Princes' Revolt (1552–1555)[19]
  • Wyatt's rebellion (1554) in England over Mary I of England's decision to marry the Catholic non-English prince Philip II of Spain. Mary's repression of the rebellion earned her the nickname "Bloody Mary" amongst Protestants.[21]
  • The French Wars of Religion (1562–1598) in France[1][19]
  • The Eighty Years' War (1566/68–1648) in the Low Countries[1][19]
  • The Cologne War (1583–1588) in the Electorate of Cologne
  • The Strasbourg Bishops' War (1592–1604) in the Prince-Bishopric of Strasbourg
  • The War against Sigismund (1598–1599) in the Polish–Swedish union
  • The Bocskai uprising (1604–1606) in Hungary and Transylvania
  • The War of the Jülich Succession (1609–10, 1614) in the United Duchies of Jülich-Cleves-Berg[22]
• The Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), affecting the Holy Roman Empire including the Habsburg monarchy and Bohemia and Moravia, France, Denmark-Norway and Sweden[1][19]
  • Bohemian Revolt (1618–1620) between the Protestant nobility of the Bohemian Crown and their Catholic Habsburg king. This revolt started the Thirty Years' War, causing additional conflicts elsewhere in Europe, and subsuming other already ongoing conflicts.
  • Hessian War (1567–1648) between the Lutheran Landgraviate of Hesse-Darmstadt (member of the Catholic League) and the Calvinist Landgraviate of Hesse-Kassel (member of the Protestant Union)
• The Huguenot rebellions (1621–1629) in France[1]
• The Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639–1653), affecting England, Scotland and Ireland[1]
  • Bishops' Wars (1639–1640)
  • English Civil War (1642–1651)
  • Scotland in the Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639–1652)
  • Irish Confederate Wars (1641–1653) and the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland (1649–1653)[23]
• The post-Westphalian wars:[2]
  • The Düsseldorf Cow War (1651) [24]
  • The Savoyard–Waldensian wars (1655–1690) beginning with the Piedmontese Easter (Pasque piemontesi) of April 1655,[7][25] in the Duchy of Savoy
  • The First War of Villmergen (1656) in the Old Swiss Confederacy[23][26]
  • The Second Anglo-Dutch War (1665–1667) between England and the Dutch Republic[23]
  • The Nine Years' War (1688–1697)[2]
    • The Glorious Revolution (1688–1689)[2]
    • The Williamite War in Ireland (1688–1691)[2]
    • The Jacobite rising of 1689 in Scotland saw Roman Catholics and Anglican Tories supporting the deposed Catholic king James Stuart take up arms against the newly enthroned Calvinist William of Orange and his Presbyterian Covenanter allies; the religious component may be regarded as secondary to the dynastic factor, however.[27]
  • The War of the Spanish Succession (1701–1714) across Europe had a strong religious component[2]
  • The War in the Cevennes (1702–1710) in France[23]
  • The Toggenburg War (Second War of Villmergen) (1712) in the Old Swiss Confederacy[23][26]

Even if we identify a time of religious harmony in Europe, is the concept of “Christendom” actually Biblical? I have not yet found a biblical principle for establishing "Christendom".

Many (perhaps all?) of the conflicts you cite, while perhaps having a religious component, had various other sources for the conflict. Indeed, the Wikipedia page you copied all of that from has this to say (footnotes removed):

The religious nature of the wars has also been debated, and contrasted with other factors at play, such as national, dynastic (e.g. they could often simultaneously be characterised as wars of succession), and financial interests. Scholars have pointed out that some European wars of this period were not caused by disputes occasioned by the Reformation, such as the Italian Wars (1494–1559, only involving Catholics) as well as the Northern Seven Years' War (1563–1570, only involving Lutherans). Others emphasise the fact that cross-religious alliances existed, such as the Lutheran duke Maurice of Saxony assisting the Catholic emperor Charles V in the first Schmalkaldic War in 1547 in order to become the Saxon elector instead of John Frederick, his Lutheran cousin, while the Catholic king Henry II of France supported the Lutheran cause in the Second Schmalkaldic War in 1552 to secure French bases in modern-day Lorraine. The Encyclopædia Britannica maintains that "[the] wars of religion of this period [were] fought mainly for confessional security and political gain."

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

So you want universal egalitarianism where all people's and and groups must be forcibly mingled? If people choose to self segregate, what would be the problem with that?

Do you believe the Amish are disgusting? Or that the early Christians were also disgusting for self segregation?

Forcing those that do not submit to national quasichristianism, to leave their homes and live in reservations, is evil. Happily the USA repented of such despicable behavior quite a while ago, only after women got the vote.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Many (perhaps all?) of the conflicts you cite, while perhaps having a religious component, had various other sources for the conflict. Indeed, the Wikipedia page you copied all of that from has this to say (footnotes removed):

The religious nature of the wars has also been debated, and contrasted with other factors at play, such as national, dynastic (e.g. they could often simultaneously be characterised as wars of succession), and financial interests. Scholars have pointed out that some European wars of this period were not caused by disputes occasioned by the Reformation, such as the Italian Wars (1494–1559, only involving Catholics) as well as the Northern Seven Years' War (1563–1570, only involving Lutherans). Others emphasise the fact that cross-religious alliances existed, such as the Lutheran duke Maurice of Saxony assisting the Catholic emperor Charles V in the first Schmalkaldic War in 1547 in order to become the Saxon elector instead of John Frederick, his Lutheran cousin, while the Catholic king Henry II of France supported the Lutheran cause in the Second Schmalkaldic War in 1552 to secure French bases in modern-day Lorraine. The Encyclopædia Britannica maintains that "[the] wars of religion of this period [were] fought mainly for confessional security and political gain."

I agree; those wars were about control, greed, and power, not Christ.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Forcing those that do not submit to national quasichristianism, to leave their homes and live in reservations, is evil. Happily the USA repented of such despicable behavior quite a while ago, only after women got the vote.

I'm confused, are you an anarchist who is opposed to the concept state in general then? Don't take this personally Jeb but I don't think you've thought all that deeply about political order and if you are against forced submission to a state, then you are against all governments everywhere, any time and any place. I tend to recognize this as facet of human life and this won't change.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Here is a list of conflicts in Europe over 250 years involving Catholics and Reformers. Europe never seen religious harmony.

• Pre-Reformation wars:
  • The Oldcastle Revolt (1414) in England[16] (sometimes considered to have "foreshadowed the wars of religion"[17])
  • The Hussite Wars (1419–1434) in the Lands of the Bohemian Crown
• Conflicts immediately connected with the Reformation:
  • The Knights' War (1522–1523) in the Holy Roman Empire[18]
  • The First Dalecarlian Rebellion (1524–1525) in Sweden.
  • The German Peasants' War (1524–1526) in the Holy Roman Empire[18]
  • The Second Dalecarlian Rebellion (1527–1528) in Sweden.
  • The Wars of Kappel (1529–1531) in the Old Swiss Confederacy[19]
  • The Tudor conquest of Ireland (1529–1603) on the Catholic population of Ireland by the Tudor kings of England and their Protestant allies
    • The Kildare Rebellion (1534–1535)
    • The First Desmond Rebellion (1569–1573)
    • The Second Desmond Rebellion (1579–1583)
    • The Nine Years' War (1593–1603)
  • The Third Dalecarlian Rebellion (1531–1533) in Sweden.
  • The War of Two Kings (1531–1532) in the Kalmar Union (Denmark and Norway)
  • The Count's Feud (1534–1536) in the Kalmar Union (Denmark and Norway)
  • The Münster rebellion (1534–1535) in the Prince-Bishopric of Münster
  • The Anabaptist riot (1535) in Amsterdam[20]
  • Olav Engelbrektsson's rebellion (1536–1537) in Norway
  • Bigod's rebellion (1537) in England
  • The Dacke War (1542–1543) in Sweden
• Conflicts after the death of Martin Luther:
  • The Schmalkaldic War (1546–1547) in the Holy Roman Empire[18]
  • The Prayer Book Rebellion (1549) in England
  • The Battle of Sauðafell (1550) on Iceland
  • The Second Schmalkaldic War or Princes' Revolt (1552–1555)[19]
  • Wyatt's rebellion (1554) in England over Mary I of England's decision to marry the Catholic non-English prince Philip II of Spain. Mary's repression of the rebellion earned her the nickname "Bloody Mary" amongst Protestants.[21]
  • The French Wars of Religion (1562–1598) in France[1][19]
  • The Eighty Years' War (1566/68–1648) in the Low Countries[1][19]
  • The Cologne War (1583–1588) in the Electorate of Cologne
  • The Strasbourg Bishops' War (1592–1604) in the Prince-Bishopric of Strasbourg
  • The War against Sigismund (1598–1599) in the Polish–Swedish union
  • The Bocskai uprising (1604–1606) in Hungary and Transylvania
  • The War of the Jülich Succession (1609–10, 1614) in the United Duchies of Jülich-Cleves-Berg[22]
• The Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), affecting the Holy Roman Empire including the Habsburg monarchy and Bohemia and Moravia, France, Denmark-Norway and Sweden[1][19]
  • Bohemian Revolt (1618–1620) between the Protestant nobility of the Bohemian Crown and their Catholic Habsburg king. This revolt started the Thirty Years' War, causing additional conflicts elsewhere in Europe, and subsuming other already ongoing conflicts.
  • Hessian War (1567–1648) between the Lutheran Landgraviate of Hesse-Darmstadt (member of the Catholic League) and the Calvinist Landgraviate of Hesse-Kassel (member of the Protestant Union)
• The Huguenot rebellions (1621–1629) in France[1]
• The Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639–1653), affecting England, Scotland and Ireland[1]
  • Bishops' Wars (1639–1640)
  • English Civil War (1642–1651)
  • Scotland in the Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639–1652)
  • Irish Confederate Wars (1641–1653) and the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland (1649–1653)[23]
• The post-Westphalian wars:[2]
  • The Düsseldorf Cow War (1651) [24]
  • The Savoyard–Waldensian wars (1655–1690) beginning with the Piedmontese Easter (Pasque piemontesi) of April 1655,[7][25] in the Duchy of Savoy
  • The First War of Villmergen (1656) in the Old Swiss Confederacy[23][26]
  • The Second Anglo-Dutch War (1665–1667) between England and the Dutch Republic[23]
  • The Nine Years' War (1688–1697)[2]
    • The Glorious Revolution (1688–1689)[2]
    • The Williamite War in Ireland (1688–1691)[2]
    • The Jacobite rising of 1689 in Scotland saw Roman Catholics and Anglican Tories supporting the deposed Catholic king James Stuart take up arms against the newly enthroned Calvinist William of Orange and his Presbyterian Covenanter allies; the religious component may be regarded as secondary to the dynastic factor, however.[27]
  • The War of the Spanish Succession (1701–1714) across Europe had a strong religious component[2]
  • The War in the Cevennes (1702–1710) in France[23]
  • The Toggenburg War (Second War of Villmergen) (1712) in the Old Swiss Confederacy[23][26]

Even if we identify a time of religious harmony in Europe, is the concept of “Christendom” actually Biblical? I have not yet found a biblical principle for establishing "Christendom".

I can't find a biblical reason to establish a specific canon of scripture either or various rules of how Churches operate. War is always going to be part of human existence and I don't feel the need to apologize for the religious component of past wars that Christians have thought. Not Orthodox, Not Catholic, Not Protestants. They fought for many reasons, some good, some bad and getting rid of religion from secular life and the governance of a country has not stopped wars. If anything, wars have only become more destructive and total as we neglect the spiritual and think purely in materialistic terms.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Here is a profound example of passivism throughout history, attributed to the founder of Christianity.

Philippians 2:5-7

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

So are all called to be like Christ exactly then? God has called no Christian to be active and do things? We're all supposed to be martyrs and just die when demanded of us? Is this what you believe.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

They are all the same because they contradict Biblical principles.

Jesus was explicit that the Kingdom of God is not of this earth. Christians who seek to establish a Christian nation contradict this Biblical principle. Similarly, Muslims aiming to create an Islamic state also contradict this principle. Atheists advocating for a secular world devoid of God equally contradict the Biblical principle.

I asked a hypothetical earlier that no one could address, because it perhaps gets the heart of the issue. Jeb! couldn't address it but maybe you could. Let's imagine a land mass. On this landmass there are no countries. Just particular communities which live next to each other. One of these communities is a Christian community, the particular church doesn't matter. Does this particular Christian community have the right and ability to rule itself as a community or must it be subject to the non-Christian communities neighboring it?

Also, being against biblical principles doesn't render all these things the same. Not that I agree with you that Christian civilization was anti biblical. Are you saying there is no difference between the Kingdoms of France, England and Spain when compared to the Sultanates of Egypt, Morocco or Iran in the middle ages? Can you explain to me how those Christian Kingdoms were just as bad as the Muslim ones?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If this doesn't perfectly illustrate how un-Christlike your propositions and christian nationalism as a whole is, I don't know what does. So at the end of the day, it's all about gaining power - and not about following God, loving your neighbor and living peacefully with them, and having God and the Holy Spirit work through you to change hearts. In other words, its not about all the things which Christ taught - it's about worldly power and trying to rule over another.

Except I've never said it's all about power. I think power is important and I believe Christians can have it and use it but I've never made this assertion that the only thing that matters is earthly power. If you look earlier in the thread I explained to Liz that it wasn't through power that the early Christians came to dominate Rome. I am not opposed to changing hearts, but I am also not opposed to Christians having soverignty and control over themselves and their communities. I oppose this attitude that would render us Dhimmis because I don't believe every Christian is called to be a serf and a slave.

This thread has reached levels of ridiculousness which I no longer have time for, and I think the point against christian nationalism has been adequately made. I hope that your heart turns back to God.

Except it hasn't. It's just been people like you repeating the same shallow phrases without solidly engaging with the ideas.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

I asked a hypothetical earlier that no one could address, because it perhaps gets the heart of the issue. Jeb! couldn't address it but maybe you could. Let's imagine a land mass. On this landmass there are no countries. Just particular communities which live next to each other. One of these communities is a Christian community, the particular church doesn't matter. Does this particular Christian community have the right and ability to rule itself as a community or must it be subject to the non-Christian communities neighboring it?

Also, being against biblical principles doesn't render all these things the same. Not that I agree with you that Christian civilization was anti biblical. Are you saying there is no difference between the Kingdoms of France, England and Spain when compared to the Sultanates of Egypt, Morocco or Iran in the middle ages? Can you explain to me how those Christian Kingdoms were just as bad as the Muslim ones?

I am not interested in hypotheticals or reasoning. I only want to know if you can show me from the Word of God that a Christian nation is Biblical.

Kingdom of France is earthy kingdom and Jesus was very clear about earthly kingdom; “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's”.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

So are all called to be like Christ exactly then? God has called no Christian to be active and do things? We're all supposed to be martyrs and just die when demanded of us? Is this what you believe.

YES. We are called to be like Christ, a standard I fall short of daily. Yet, we are still called to strive for this.

We clearly have different views on Christianity. In your "Christian nation," where do you think I should live? Do you see me as an equal, or would I be a second-class citizen in your Christian-nation like non-believers?