Shouldn't all Evangelicals want Christian Nationalism?

[lismore]

Christians like you lisa

Who's Lisa?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Well, maybe but how does one challenge the modern regime? And I think for many it is a mixed bag.

I would suggest the first thing we do is recognize the modern regime as an enemy and act accordingly. It doesn't involve plots for violent revolution but instead finding groups and people who are your friends and supporting them. Basically, understand in political terms who is your enemy and who is your friend. If the modern regime is your enemy, you won't want to support it, you won't want to fight in it's wars and you'll be very skeptical of everything it says and promises. You'd want to find and do things which actually benefit you and yours first and foremost.

This is perhaps the most threatening thing ever to the modern democratic regime because it demands participation in the system in order to secure legitimacy. The fewer who play the game, the less legitimate it actually is.

Simply be distant, understand that the regime is the other. If Christians, especially American Christians, adopted such an attitude you'd find society quickly changing.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Who's Lisa?

My mistake. You lis. You probably are friend of the modern regime and it's interests. Not the interests of fellow Christians.

 

[lismore]

I would suggest the first thing we do is recognize the modern regime as an enemy and act accordingly. It doesn't involve plots for violent revolution but instead finding groups and people who are your friends and supporting them. Basically, understand in political terms who is your enemy and who is your friend. If the modern regime is your enemy, you won't want to support it, you won't want to fight in it's wars and you'll be very skeptical of everything it says and promises. You'd want to find and do things which actually benefit you and yours first and foremost.

Simply be distant, understand that the regime is the other. If Christians, especially American Christians, adopted such an attitude you'd find society quickly changing.

Hello! Wouldn't most Christians be doing this already? God Bless

 

[lismore]

My mistake. You lis. You probably are friend of the modern regime and it's interests. Not the interests of fellow Christians.

Hello! lismore is the name of an Island, it means 'Great Garden'. lis means garden. As in Lismore Lighthouse in the photo.

I hate the modern regime and it's interests with a passion- friendship with the world is emnity towards God. I just think 'Christian nationalism' is another manifestation of the same old diabolical worldly regime, with lip service paid to some aspects of denominational teaching, a way for rogues to use Christianity as a veneer to gain power. If you can convince me that an Orthodox regime would be better, I'm all ears. Certainly Russia doesn't seem any better. God Bless

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Hello! Wouldn't most Christians be doing this already? God Bless

No because most Christians, as evidenced by this thread, are highly invested in preserving the current order. They will in the end submit and work in the interests of their governments.

 

[lismore]

No because most Christians, as evidenced by this thread, are highly invested in preserving the current order. They will in the end submit and work in the interests of their governments.

Hello! The thing is that I live in a country, Great Britain, that is nominally a Christian Nationalist regime. The late Queen, head of state and head of the church of England, signed such things as abortion and SSM into law, both of which were proposed by 'Christian' MPs, after receiving approval from Parliaments, one of which contained Bishops. What if the current order is a 'Christian Nationalist' regime and you're disgusted by it?

God Bless

 

[mourningdove~]

Hello! One issue might arise in that if a political philosophy were identified that even broadly correlated with 'Christian' values, how would you persuade Christians to support it? If you go to some of the political threads on this forum, take the USA for example, some posters are vociferously in support of Harris, some for Trump and others for neither. The most clear cut biblical issues they still disagree on, they don't even all agree that abortion is wrong.

Hi @lismore

Yep, I don't know how one would ever get all American Christians to agree on much of anything these days.

Even within the Trump supporters, there is now division. Recently Trump 'weakened' his stance on pro-life issues. He supports IVF and the use of the abortion pill. His wife Melania came out last month and stated she is pro-choice. This has all been a huge blow (disappointment) to many pro-life pro-Trump voters. With his pro-life shift, some pro-lifers will actually not be voting for him in 2024, though they like all his other policies. So for any new voters he may have possibly won over by softening his abortion position, he stands to lose quite a few pro-life voters, for changing his position.

Very tragically, abortion remains the #1 issue in American politics.
I say tragically, because I think it should be a 'no brainer' that abortion is wrong ... but many other U.S. Christians don't agree.

I hope you will say a prayer for America, and that God's Will would be done in this election.
Prophetically, so many things continue to line up for the imminent return of the Lord ...
the outcome of this election is going to have a major impact on things, one way or the other.
May the Lord's Will be done.

 

[lismore]

I hope you will say a prayer for America, and that God's Will would be done in this election.

Hello Mourning Dove. Good to hear from you! I certainly will.

Prophetically, so many things continue to line up for the imminent return of the Lord ...
the outcome of this election is going to have a major impact on things, one way or the other.
May the Lord's Will be done.

I agree! We're near to the Lord's return. The signs are all around us, finding alignment with the truth of God's word, even in God's house, is becoming harder, if not impossible.

God Bless You

 

[mourningdove~]

Hello Mourning Dove. Good to hear from you! I certainly will.


I agree! We're near to the Lord's return. The signs are all around us, finding alignment with the truth of God's word, even in God's house, is becoming harder, if not impossible.

God Bless You

Thank you, lismore.

I really hope, with Trump's latest shift on abortion, that we haven't stepped too far away from the Lord, as a nation. We no longer have a major political party that can honestly call itself 'pro-life'. That is kind of 'a big thing'.

These 2 candidates are both campaigning very hard right now, Trump amazingly so. He never takes a break. lol

But, no matter how hard these folks try, the One Who will decide the election is God. I believe that with all my heart. Trump won the election in 2016 because of God. I will always believe that. Trump wasn't suppose to win, but he did. And God did reveal alot to us all, during the Trump administration.

It is always best to have God 'on one's side'. I just hope Trump hasn't lost 'that', by softening his pro-life position. Trump has many policies that I see as being very good for America, even the world, but I don't know now if those will be enough.

I don't ever see Christian Nationalism as really happening in America. There are some areas of the Country where I think folks are getting into that, but I don't see it spreading under Trump, and definitely not under Harris. In reality, America continues to move towards paganism. We are no longer a Christian nation. Christians here are fast becoming a minority. How much longer we will have God's favor? I don't know.

Many blessings to you!

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I would suggest the first thing we do is recognize the modern regime as an enemy and act accordingly. It doesn't involve plots for violent revolution but instead finding groups and people who are your friends and supporting them. Basically, understand in political terms who is your enemy and who is your friend. If the modern regime is your enemy, you won't want to support it, you won't want to fight in it's wars and you'll be very skeptical of everything it says and promises. You'd want to find and do things which actually benefit you and yours first and foremost.

This is perhaps the most threatening thing ever to the modern democratic regime because it demands participation in the system in order to secure legitimacy. The fewer who play the game, the less legitimate it actually is.

Simply be distant, understand that the regime is the other. If Christians, especially American Christians, adopted such an attitude you'd find society quickly changing.

I will read this more closely and respond tomorrow. Thanks.

You are reminding me of the Liberation Theologians. We must "drink from our own wells."

 

[okay]

in any case, it's a shallow argument for you to just say: "J6 happened, therefore Christian Nationalism is always bad." There is not much depth there.

Fair enough. I should have made it more clear that I was talking about the current movement in the US. Their guy is Trump, who has promised to pardon the J6 convicts.

Talking about generalities is pretty difficult because ‘christian nationalism’ can mean many different things to different people. For example, I doubt any folks on CF would be for the kind of extreme Christian nationalism Stephen Wolfe seems to advocate, which (at least according to reviews of his book on sites like the Gospel Coalition) would include the state executing heretics.

For those of you who seem to be for Christian nationalism, what specifically do you mean by it?

 

[lifepsyop]

Fair enough. I should have made it more clear that I was talking about the current movement in the US. Their guy is Trump, who has promised to pardon the J6 convicts.

Good for him if he does it. The majority of J6 detainees were totally peaceful and are basically political prisoners.

Talking about generalities is pretty difficult because ‘christian nationalism’ can mean many different things to different people.

Okay.

For those of you who seem to be for Christian nationalism, what specifically do you mean by it?

I mean a nation that formally recognizes Jesus Christ as Lord over it.

 

[lifepsyop]

No because most Christians, as evidenced by this thread, are highly invested in preserving the current order.

It's interesting because many of these Christians will claim to be entirely de-politicized. Their main talking point when expressing their disapproval of Christian Nationalism, is that we should not invest ourselves in earthly kingdoms, and only look to the kingdom of heaven to come.

And yet they are the ones who most passionately defend the reign of the current liberal democratic order.

They treat this post-war consensus as if it is a neutral default state of being, that only dangerous zealots would want to break away from... when in reality the postwar socio-political order is itself an extreme aberration that anyone in human history up until the late 19th century would have considered insane. Calling it neutral is a way of disguising its actual extreme chaotic nature.

Now other Christians are waking up to this and naturally leaning back towards a traditional system based on actual Good and Virtue (as opposed to the revolutionary worship of individual human rights to do whatever you want at the expense of the group) ...

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Hello! The thing is that I live in a country, Great Britain, that is nominally a Christian Nationalist regime. The late Queen, head of state and head of the church of England, signed such things as abortion and SSM into law, both of which were proposed by 'Christian' MPs, after receiving approval from Parliaments, one of which contained Bishops. What if the current order is a 'Christian Nationalist' regime and you're disgusted by it?

God Bless

Great Britain is not a Christian country by any stretch of the imagination, due to the prominence of Liberalism, the decline of the monarchy to a mere figurehead without actual power or investment in the spiritual health of the nation and the Church as a result of it trying to cater to the dominant secular liberalism within that country is basically a husk compared to what it used to be.

Genuine Christian nationalism is not ashamed by Christ, genuine Christians don't apologize for the moral ethos of Christianity but that is what the Church of England consistently does because it no longer holds to the Christian faith in my honest opinion. So I am disgusted by England (as much as I am any other modern secular state), but we have to address things as they are in reality.

We shouldn't play games that just because technically the COE is the established Church and the Monarchy is present in the UK that it makes the UK a Christian Nationalist country. It doesn't.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Hello! lismore is the name of an Island, it means 'Great Garden'. lis means garden. As in Lismore Lighthouse in the photo.

I hate the modern regime and it's interests with a passion- friendship with the world is emnity towards God. I just think 'Christian nationalism' is another manifestation of the same old diabolical worldly regime, with lip service paid to some aspects of denominational teaching, a way for rogues to use Christianity as a veneer to gain power. If you can convince me that an Orthodox regime would be better, I'm all ears. Certainly Russia doesn't seem any better. God Bless

I'm not arguing for an Orthodox regime. Russia isn't especially Orthodox in it's government, even if the Church there has prominence and still influences society. That to me however is better than what exists in America where the Church has no influence on society and traditional religion has fallen by the wayside.

The problem I see in your view when you say Christian Nationalism is just as potentially diabolical is that it leaves you with few options. Power as a matter among humans is an essential force which cannot be gotten rid of. Yes, people may and have used Christianity for their own benefit but this is true across all spectrums of politics. People seek power and this is intrinsic to human nature. If you as a Christian are saying we as Christians cannot seek power and that this is the only legitimate path we can take, then you are setting yourself up for failure because someone else will then assume the power vacuum and why should Christians let others fill that vacuum when the results are potentially disastrous?

It's like when I brought up King Alfred, you were more concerned with the faults of the Anglo Saxons than you were with the faults of the Danes who invaded and took over the Kingdom. It shows an inherent bias against the people, i presume you would say you care about, your fellow Christians. As if the answer to temporal affairs is to be above the systems themselves and that can only get you so far, especially with an enemy who is determined to destroy you and only respects hard power. Look at the Bolsheviks as an example, can anyone fault the White Russians for resisting the reds even if the Whites were not perfect? This is why I am very much against this modern Christian notion of being above politics, because it surrenders the natural power God has given us to others and renders us as Dhimmis and being a Dhimmi never works out well.

 

[okay]

Good for him if he does it. The majority of J6 detainees were totally peaceful and are basically political prisoners.

Trump promised to pardon all of them, including those guilty of violently assaulting law enforcement. And you think that is good.

Do you support pardoning everyone in the country who is guilty of those same crimes, or just those who committed the violence on J6?

 

[okay]

I mean a nation that formally recognizes Jesus Christ as Lord over it.

What does that mean? Is it just a statement released by the president? Or in the context of the US is this a constitutional amendment? Does it effect laws in any way? If so, which stream or denomination of Christianity gets to make the rules? Are there implications for citizens who are not Christians?

 

[okay]

I'm not arguing for an Orthodox regime. Russia isn't especially Orthodox in it's government, even if the Church there has prominence and still influences society. That to me however is better than what exists in America where the Church has no influence on society and traditional religion has fallen by the wayside.

Isn’t the ROC supporting Putin’s invasion of Ukraine? That invasion has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths (might even be approaching a million by now?), is including rape and torture of Ukranians, and has no just cause.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Isn’t the ROC supporting Putin’s invasion of Ukraine? That invasion has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths (might even be approaching a million by now?), is including rape and torture of Ukranians, and has no just cause.

Getting into said subject would radically change the nature of the discussion from Christian Nationalism to the war in Ukraine. I would however point out that plenty of American Christians support Ukraine fighting to the last Ukranian despite it not being in Ukraine's interest to fight a total war. It isn't only Russia that has caused death in this war, rather it is a failure to negotiate terms that drags out wars such as this.