Shouldn't all Evangelicals want Christian Nationalism?

[RDKirk]

Christianity in the western world is declining. Promoting total secularism is not going to reverse that.

Christianity in the west is being winnowed, pruned, cleaned.

 

[okay]

Christianity in the western world is declining. Promoting total secularism is not going to reverse that.

And you think that a minority of the population should use any means necessary to gain political power so they can try and force Christianity on their neighbors?

This movement is a tinderbox. We saw a glimpse of this on January 6, where there were many Christians in the mob that stormed the capital. You can find footage of them praying inside after assaulting law enforcement officers - they believed their violence was following God's will.

That is what we are up against with christian nationalists in the US. If their candidate does not win, they have shown that they will not accept the result of a free and fair election and may resort to violence.

I want no part of it.

And it isn't just a few of them that view violence as an option. In the US, about 40% of christian nationalists believe "things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country,"

A Christian Nation? Understanding the Threat of Christian Nationalism to American Democracy and Culture

To see the latest data on this topic, see PRRI’s February 2025 report: “Christian Nationalism Across All 50 States: Insights from PRRI’s 2024 American Values Atlas.” To view a PDF of slides presented…

www.prri.org

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Christianity in the western world is declining.

I agree with you. It is not only declining but also distorted in the process. How many distorted Gospels: Prosperity, power, exclusivity , nationalism, even hate. Yes, Christianity can be twisted to empower human vices, insecurities and divisions of all kinds.

I would rather see Evangelicals promote Christian values without calling them that.
And I would like to see such values identified with specific policies.

 

[RDKirk]

I agree with you. It is not only declining but also distorted in the process. How many distorted Gospels: Prosperity, power, exclusivity , nationalism, even hate.

The decline of that kind of "Christianity" is the winnowing I'm talking about.

That can go away.

If that's what most of American "Christianity" has been, then good riddance to it.

"If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."

 

[didactics]

Jefferson was also a Deist who preferred his own version of Jesus rather than that of the Anglican Church, and liked the idea of religious liberty.

I'm just starting to realize how ignorant I am about American history. For example, I always just assumed that 1776 was about celebrating our independence from Britain, which it is but why? I thought it meant that we won the war. However I come to find out the war was just beginning, but the colonists formed a coordinated effort to resist Britain, but I guess things started to look more favorable for the Patriots as the war ensued. And it was at that time we adopted the Declaration of Independence. The other thing that's been lost on me is that though the Declaration and the Constitution are similar, they are not the same. The Declaration is a document that lays out the justification to break from British rule, while the constitution established the government. However, I've been rethinking some things. What is the difference between a federal republic and a nation? I watched this video of someone criticizing Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address because he essentially gave a distorted view of the meaning of history concerning 1776, as it sounded like he was saying that we became a nation then. But did we become a nation at that time? But it is argued that the United States did not constitute a nation in 1776, it was a Federal Republic held together by a common cause against illegal and unconstitutional acts by both king and parliament. I think the reason for this distinction is because the founding generation warned of the dangers of a national government.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm just starting to realize how ignorant I am about American history. For example, I always just assumed that 1776 was about celebrating our independence from Britain, which it is but why? I thought it meant that we won the war. However I come to find out the war was just beginning, but the colonists formed a coordinated effort to resist Britain, but I guess things started to look more favorable for the Patriots as the war ensued. And it was at that time we adopted the Declaration of Independence. The other thing that's been lost on me is that though the Declaration and the Constitution are similar, they are not the same. The Declaration is a document that lays out the justification to break from British rule, while the constitution established the government. However, I've been rethinking some things. What is the difference between a federal republic and a nation? I watched this video of someone criticizing Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address because he essentially gave a distorted view of the meaning of history concerning 1776, as it sounded like he was saying that we became a nation then. But did we become a nation at that time? But it is argued that the United States did not constitute a nation in 1776, it was a Federal Republic held together by a common cause against illegal and unconstitutional acts by both king and parliament. I think the reason for this distinction is because the founding generation warned of the dangers of a national government.

The original concept of the United States was something more like the current European Union. The dominance of the federal government as felt today stems from the Civil War.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

And you think that a minority of the population should use any means necessary to gain political power so they can try and force Christianity on their neighbors?

Any means necessary? No. Should Christians be opposed to having political power which by it's nature uses force to impose rules and order on society? No, Christians should not be opposed this because I believe said rules influenced by Christianity would be good. If you believe force or the power of politics is only for the non-Christian, this is where we fundamentally disagree.

 

[lifepsyop]

And you think that a minority of the population should use any means necessary to gain political power so they can try and force Christianity on their neighbors?

just curious, do you consider banning p*rn*graphy to be an example of "forcing Christianity" ?

This movement is a tinderbox. We saw a glimpse of this on January 6, where there were many Christians in the mob that stormed the capital. You can find footage of them praying inside after assaulting law enforcement officers - they believed their violence was following God's will.

That is what we are up against with christian nationalists in the US. If their candidate does not win, they have shown that they will not accept the result of a free and fair election and may resort to violence.

I want no part of it.

And it isn't just a few of them that view violence as an option. In the US, about 40% of christian nationalists believe "things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country,"

A Christian Nation? Understanding the Threat of Christian Nationalism to American Democracy and Culture

To see the latest data on this topic, see PRRI’s February 2025 report: “Christian Nationalism Across All 50 States: Insights from PRRI’s 2024 American Values Atlas.” To view a PDF of slides presented…

www.prri.org

do you think the insurrection during the original American revolution was following God's will? Are you okay with only that particular insurrection?

 

[lifepsyop]

Listening to this thread has made me want to learn more about Protestant resistance theory. There is a book about it I've heard such as, Slaying Leviathan: Limited Government and Resistance in the Christian Tradition by historian Glenn S. Sunshine. It's not about celebrating rebellion for the sake of rebellion. Who was really at fault here, the colonists or the king? I'm convinced it was an act of government overreach and the colonists were on the defense, not wanting to start a fight. The celebration is the strategy to successfully become independent and form their own government that's not perfect by any means but far closer to what we want in a Christian nation.

I remember reading about letters that the German Hessians wrote while in colonial America. They couldn't believe that some of the American colonists were trying to stir up a rebellion because their level of freedom and quality of life already far surpassed most of the rest of the world. The Hessians couldn't understand what the Americans had to complain about.

Probably why just as many of the colonists opposed the revolution as supported it. Many rightfully saw violent rebellion against the existing British government as a violation of Christian instruction to obey rulers.

Of course, post-revolutionary 'whig' history, and post-revolution church has essentially cast the American revolution as the genesis of a "sacred liberty" or "sacred democracy"....

 

[lifepsyop]

The Church is not in decline. Jesus is not losing His battle. But the Church in America can definitely stand and needs the winnowing it's getting.

might this winnowing involve the abandonment of certain American idols such as the veneration of Liberty ?

 

[okay]

do you think the insurrection during the original American revolution was following God's will? Are you okay with only that particular insurrection?

I do not believe that the founding of the US was 'following God's will' any more than the founding of any other nation. I think the idea of 'American exceptionalism' has been unhealthy and can often be idolatrous. Debating the details of the American revolution would be for another thread. The past is the past; I am concerned about the future.

January 6 was about trying to use violence to overthrow the results of a free and fair election because people didn't like the outcome. The lie that the election was stolen was pushed by many Christian leaders and churches. When the truth doesn't agree with their wishes, they deny the truth and convince folks in the pews that their country is being stolen from them. I have family in that world. There are literally more than a dozen US flags in their sanctuary (idolatry anyone?), and the fact that my wife and I accept the result of the 2020 election is seen as evidence that we must be far from God.

 

[lifepsyop]

I do not believe that the founding of the US was 'following God's will' any more than the founding of any other nation. I think the idea of 'American exceptionalism' has been unhealthy and can often be idolatrous. Debating the details of the American revolution would be for another thread. The past is the past; I am concerned about the future.

oh i see... that's for another thread... but you want to opine about J6 in this thread....

January 6 was about trying to use violence to overthrow the results of a free and fair election because people didn't like the outcome. The lie that the election was stolen was pushed by many Christian leaders and churches. When the truth doesn't agree with their wishes, they deny the truth and convince folks in the pews that their country is being stolen from them. I have family in that world. There are literally more than a dozen US flags in their sanctuary (idolatry anyone?), and the fact that my wife and I accept the result of the 2020 election is seen as evidence that we must be far from God.

Just out of curiosity, did you also believe in the Trump-Russia hoax?

 

[RDKirk]

might this winnowing involve the abandonment of certain American idols such as the veneration of Liberty ?

I would hate to lose the liberty to worship the Lord as the Lord has set forth...but I'll point again to the fact that the Church has grown ten-fold in North Korea to the point that Kim is no longer trying to eradicate it, but co-opt it.

No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

American Christendom has gone so far as to theologize the horror of American slavery and turn a blind eye to the incredible bizarre horror of lynching, with no repentance. American Christendom gleefully supports rebellion. The need for God's discipline is painful, and American Christendom won't seem to heed the warnings.

 

[lifepsyop]

I would hate to lose the liberty to worship the Lord as the Lord has set forth...

but that's really something distinct from 17th century Lockean Liberty that the American founders were so big on... isn't it?

could Christians of the world really not freely worship until the American revolution? that seems quite a stretch, but apologies if that's not what you're saying..

 

[okay]

oh i see... that's for another thread... but you want to opine about J6 in this thread....

I thought this thread is about contemporary Christian nationalism, which contributed to J6 and that even helped us (or at least helped me) understand the nature of the movement. If the American revolution was supposed to be about this same kind of Christian nationalism then they were completely incompetent as they wrote a secular constitution that describes a secular government.

In any case, I would never claim that the revolution was in God’s will.

Just out of curiosity, did you also believe in the Trump-Russia hoax?

I think the Mueller report probably contains all the evidence we will ever have, and I am happy to leave it at that. If I recall correctly the guilty pleas/convictions were basically ‘just’ about lying under oath and obstruction. I was never one to go around claiming the Trump campaign had colluded with the Russians when I had seen no evidence to say so. How is that related to Christian nationalism?

 

[lifepsyop]

I thought this thread is about contemporary Christian nationalism, which contributed to J6...

actually, if anything January 6th would have been some kind of Libertarian revolution, invoking the "Spirit of 1776" or whatnot.. very little to do with actual Christianity, (just as with the original American Revolution)

in any case, it's a shallow argument for you to just say: "J6 happened, therefore Christian Nationalism is always bad." There is not much depth there.

 

[RDKirk]

but that's really something distinct from 17th century Lockean Liberty that the American founders were so big on... isn't it?

could Christians of the world really not freely worship until the American revolution? that seems quite a stretch, but apologies if that's not what you're saying..

It was freedom from taxation, not religious freedom, that was the goal of the American Revolution.

Biblically, there is no Christian cause to support a tax revolt. Jesus paid the taxes levied on Him, and He advised his followers to do the same. There is one tax revolt depicted in the Old Testament, and it's ultimate results were disastrous for the kingdom of Israel.

 

[lismore]

Any means necessary? No. Should Christians be opposed to having political power which by it's nature uses force to impose rules and order on society? No, Christians should not be opposed this because I believe said rules influenced by Christianity would be good. If you believe force or the power of politics is only for the non-Christian, this is where we fundamentally disagree.

Hello! One issue might arise in that if a political philosophy were identified that even broadly correlated with 'Christian' values, how would you persuade Christians to support it? If you go to some of the political threads on this forum, take the USA for example, some posters are vociferously in support of Harris, some for Trump and others for neither. The most clear cut biblical issues they still disagree on, they don't even all agree that abortion is wrong. I have seen Christians disagree on almost every issue, from the core issues of salvation onwards, the polarization is extreme.

Some of your examples of medieval warlords ruled by the sword and the burning stake.

Even if Christian Nationalism was a good idea, how could it come?

God Bless You

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Hello! One issue might arise in that if a political philosophy were identified that even broadly correlated with 'Christian' values, how would you persuade Christians to support it? If you go to some of the political threads on this forum, take the USA for example, some posters are vociferously in support of Harris, some for Trump and others for neither. The most clear cut biblical issues they still disagree on, they don't even all agree that abortion is wrong. I have seen Christians disagree on almost every issue, from the core issues of salvation onwards, the polarization is extreme.

Some of your examples of medieval warlords ruled by the sword and the burning stake.

Even if Christian Nationalism was a good idea, how could it come?

God Bless You

I would delineate between two types of Christians, those who support the modern regime, it's values and don't want to challenge it and those who dislike the modern regime and want to challenge it. I would then only work with the latter in trying to build something.

You cannot waste too much time on those who would ultimately undermine you. Christians like you lisa, seem to want Christians to be powerless and effectively dhimmis of any non Christian state. I don't know if you can be convinced. You seem to think for instance that If Christians were only more faithful they could have converted the Muslims, completely neglecting any other historic information which might shed light on why that was not likely.

By the way, all states rule by the use of force and intimidation to some degree. You despise Christian Kings of the past, yet you probably support American Presidents who have been far more brutish and indiscriminate in their killing than medieval Christian Kings. What is more evil, dropping two nukes on Japan or publicly hanging a traitor?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I would delineate between two types of Christians, those who support the modern regime, it's values and don't want to challenge it and those who dislike the modern regime and want to challenge it.

Well, maybe but how does one challenge the modern regime? And I think for many it is a mixed bag.