Did the early church worship on Sabbath?

[JSRG]

The Sabbath was changed just as predicted and no one is forcing us not to keep the Sabbath commandment in lieu of tradition. God has good people in every church but asks us to come out of our false teachings handed down over the centuries and get back to His Word Rev 18:4 Mat 15:3-14 John 4:23-24. Jesus is coming soon!

So these sources from Catholic publications are "unreliable" all claiming the same thing over the centuries?

The quotations you offer are the usual copy/pasted quotations that people spread around, normally without having ever verified them. Ironically, this topic started with someone else unleashing a bunc of copy/pasted quotations (which I went trough here and noted how they do not actually back them up), so I guess it's still "on topic" to see more of it.

I also am confused as to why you put "unreliable" in quotation marks. Now, putting something in quotation marks does not always mean a quotation--it can be used to denote other things, such as sarcasm or using a phrase loosely (such as my usage of "on topic" in the prior paragraph), but the context indicates you are quoting someone else, but I did not see anyone else say anything was "unreliable"... indeed, I even used the search option of the forum on this topic, and the first to use the word in the entire topic was you.

But back to your list. It is odd you say that the quotes you offer are "all claiming the same thing over the centuries" given the fact they... aren't claiming the same thing. Some of these quotes seem to have nothing to do with the others.

Focusing on what most of your copy/pasted quotations seem to have in common, they're largely a bunch of Catholic writers trying to use the argument of "you think the Sabbath is to be observed on Sunday, but no such command is found in the bible, so you're violating sola scriptura" against Protestants. I don't personally think it's a particularly good argument, which may be why it has lost popularity (hence why the quotes you offered of it are overwhelmingly from the 19th or early 20th centuries), but at any rate that was the argument. The fact some guys in popular apologetics used this as an argument doesn't make it a teaching of the Catholic Church itself any more than the fact someone on Catholic Answers used a particular argument makes it a teaching thereof.

Indeed, quite a few of these are just things in newspapers... if I were to quote the National Catholic Reporter or National Catholic Register, it hardly makes it a teaching of hte Catholic Church. Some at least are a statement from a priest, but that doesn't mean it's some kind of Catholic doctrine any more than a random Lutheran minister saying something means it's Lutheran doctrine.

Now, let us be fair. While your copy/pasted quotations may largely lack any real authority, a few of them at least have an imprimatur and nihil obstat. But that does not mean everything in them is any kind of formal Catholic teaching. The meaning of the nihil obstat is often misunderstood; the nihil obstat does not say everything is Catholic doctrine, merely that it doesn't contradict Catholic doctrine. Possibly to remedy the confusion about it, later works with an imprimatur and nihil obstat include this helpful explanation on the page stating the nihil obstat:

"The Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur are official declarations that a book or pamphlet is free of doctrinal or moral error. No implication is contained therein that those who have granted the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur agree with the contents, opinions or statements expressed."

Or to put it another way: It is a statement that a Catholic reader can accept everything in the work as valid without contradicting any Catholic doctrine, but does not say everything in it is a Catholic doctrine that must be accepted.

It's clear that some Catholic apologists seemed to think this "Sabbath change not found in scripture" was an argument worth using--more so in the past than in the present--but all the quotations of them doing so only mean is that some thought it was an argument worth using, but not that these apologetic arguments are some kind of teaching or doctrine of the Catholic Church.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The quotations you offer are the usual copy/pasted quotations that people spread around, normally without having ever verified them. Ironically, this topic started with someone else unleashing a bunc of copy/pasted quotations (which I went trough here and noted how they do not actually back them up), so I guess it's still "on topic" to see more of it.

I also am confused as to why you put "unreliable" in quotation marks. Now, putting something in quotation marks does not always mean a quotation--it can be used to denote other things, such as sarcasm or using a phrase loosely (such as my usage of "on topic" in the prior paragraph), but the context indicates you are quoting someone else, but I did not see anyone else say anything was "unreliable"... indeed, I even used the search option of the forum on this topic, and the first to use the word in the entire topic was you.

But back to your list. It is odd you say that the quotes you offer are "all claiming the same thing over the centuries" given the fact they... aren't claiming the same thing. Some of these quotes seem to have nothing to do with the others.

Focusing on what most of your copy/pasted quotations seem to have in common, they're largely a bunch of Catholic writers trying to use the argument of "you think the Sabbath is to be observed on Sunday, but no such command is found in the bible, so you're violating sola scriptura" against Protestants. I don't personally think it's a particularly good argument, which may be why it has lost popularity (hence why the quotes you offered of it are overwhelmingly from the 19th or early 20th centuries), but at any rate that was the argument. The fact some guys in popular apologetics used this as an argument doesn't make it a teaching of the Catholic Church itself any more than the fact someone on Catholic Answers used a particular argument makes it a teaching thereof.

Indeed, quite a few of these are just things in newspapers... if I were to quote the National Catholic Reporter or National Catholic Register, it hardly makes it a teaching of hte Catholic Church. Some at least are a statement from a priest, but that doesn't mean it's some kind of Catholic doctrine any more than a random Lutheran minister saying something means it's Lutheran doctrine.

Now, let us be fair. While your copy/pasted quotations may largely lack any real authority, a few of them at least have an imprimatur and nihil obstat. But that does not mean everything in them is any kind of formal Catholic teaching. The meaning of the nihil obstat is often misunderstood; the nihil obstat does not say everything is Catholic doctrine, merely that it doesn't contradict Catholic doctrine. Possibly to remedy the confusion about it, later works with an imprimatur and nihil obstat include this helpful explanation on the page stating the nihil obstat:

"The Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur are official declarations that a book or pamphlet is free of doctrinal or moral error. No implication is contained therein that those who have granted the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur agree with the contents, opinions or statements expressed."

Or to put it another way: It is a statement that a Catholic reader can accept everything in the work as valid without contradicting any Catholic doctrine, but does not say everything in it is a Catholic doctrine that must be accepted.

It's clear that some Catholic apologists seemed to think this "Sabbath change not found in scripture" was an argument worth using--more so in the past than in the present--but all the quotations of them doing so only mean is that some thought it was an argument worth using, but not that these apologetic arguments are some kind of teaching or doctrine of the Catholic Church.

You are working under a false premise as if they aren't verified.

I personally haven't verified every single one of the quotes, but I have for many...and yes they are all basically saying the same thing, the Catholic church changed God's Sabbath commandment based on their own authority, not from scripture. Someone changed God's Sabbath commandment just as predicted Dan 7:25 and it wasn't God. He promised not to alter the words of His covenant Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18-19 and why the Sabbath never ended at the Cross Mat 24:20 or ever Isa 66:23 thus saith the Lord, which I believe is who we should follow over any man or institution.

Here's a link to verify three quotes A Doctrinal Catechism by Stephen Keenan

I was told by a poster here Rev Keenan is not a reliable source and his teaching is in contradiction to the Catholic church despite CONFORM ABLY TO THE DECREES OF THE COUNCIL OF THE VATICAN. yet everything the Catholic church teaches exalts a man-made holy day Sunday above God's chosen holy day in His own Words Isa 58:13 that is also one of God's personally written commandments Exo 20:8-11, so the Catholic church appears to be in harmony with the teachings of Rev Keenan and the priests etc and from the other quotes. Did they change the Sabbath to Sunday ,Constatine did in the third century. Does it matter, not really because regardless who changed it we should only have faith in God and live by His words, not those who changed God's times and laws. We should follow God and His Word.

Here's another source verified https://www.preparingforeternity.com/converts-catechism1937.pdf
And another https://www.sabbathtruth.com/portals/20/documents/dies-domini.pdf
And another CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Ten Commandments
and another St. Catherine Catholic Church - Sentinel May 21, 1995 - Volume 50, Number 22, Algonac Michigan
and another one The Catholic Record, Sept. 1, 1923.
another one https://www.gutenberg.org/files/27435/27435-pdf.pdf

I don't know if you are aware, but the further we get from something occurring, the less accurate is the information, not more accurate. If we compare old dictionaries to new ones totally different definitions. Man makes errors. The devil is out to deceive the whole world and one way he is doing so is through the re-writing of information. Even in some of the new bible translations that millions of people buy completely changed the original Text and add many things, which one day they will have to answer to God for. The only thing we can trust is God's Word. God personally wrote Ten Commandments, numbered them by design Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 said He would not alter Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18-19 and is if man has the authority to re-write God's holy law, they don't, its a very tempting and deceptive doctrine leading millions of people to break one of Gods commandments. The road is narrow and keeping true to what Jesus taught and kept will never deceive us. But we each have the ability to decide for ourselves, follow the popular path or follow what He said. This is the path Jesus taught John 14:15 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Frankly, we have no idea of knowing if your quotations of them are accurate, but it hardly matters, since none of those publications are official. And individual clergy and laity, even bishops, sometimes make erroneous statements. Additionally all of these quotes are extremely brief and lacking in context,

The only official sources with any standing are on vatican.va and would include the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Thus basically the criticism you have levelled at non-Sabbatarians, as I repeatedly said, is without merit - it was baseless to start because you cited the Roman Catholic Church in the context of a discussion of other churches which have totally distinct histories and reasons for doing things, and you cannot criticize a decision for church A based on the rationale used by church B to make the same decision, when church A might have a completely different understanding.

But not that it emerges that you weren’t even quoting anything approaching an official, or even verifiable, Roman Catholic source, it frankly comes across as unwarranted criticism of Roman Catholics, and this is broadly unacceptable, and is extremely counter-productive on your end, since you cannot hope to convert people to your church (and as I have said repeatedly, you shouldn’t even be trying to convert other Nicene Christians, when the world is filled with J?ws, Mormons and other heretics, as well as Muslims and Pagans who are much more spiritually at-risk) when you say such things about their own churches.

The bible is official! the sabbath ( the 4th commandment) was ordained by GOD on Saturday and will never change, it is men who changed it not GOD.

The sabbath is one of the test the lord puts before us to see if we love him enough to follow his words.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

That’s simply not true. When I provided you with a list of Scriptures contrary to certain SDA doctrines, you responded with an irrelevant criticism of the Roman Catholic Church, which is how we wound up here. And every other post I have used, where I cited scripture, you have either ignored, or tried to avoid answering by using 2 Peter 3:16 as a catch-all to invalidate anything said by St. Paul, which is a transparent eisegetical move.

And as far as “following God’s Word”* is concerned, nothing in Sacred Scripture instructs you to criticize other Christian churches on the basis of statements they deny having made, or reject, in the case of the Roman church or which were not made by them at all, in the case of the Orthodox or Lutheran or Anglican churches. But there is much in scripture that could be used to argue such negative proselytism is wrong and should be avoided.

* And since following God’s Word can be used to refer to following Jesus Christ, based on John 1:1-18, the Golden Rule also applies with regards to Christian churches, and there is also the issue that the Great Apostasy doctrine your denomination relies on directly contradicts Matthew 16:18, et cetera.

SDA is not the point here the sabbath is, please stop bashing other's beliefs, I believe it is not permitted on this site if i see it again i will check with the owners of this forum.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The bible is official! the sabbath ( the 4th commandment) was ordained by GOD on Saturday and will never change, it is men who changed it not GOD.

The sabbath is one of the test the lord puts before us to see if we love him enough to follow his words.

I agree, I believe the Sabbath commandment is one of the tests. God in His own Words said it is a sign between Him and His people Eze 20:20 that we know we are serving the God of Creation Exo 20:11, the only God who can sanctify a day Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:8-11 and the only God who can sanctify us. Eze 20:12 Most Christians believe in 9 of the 10 but for some reason when it comes to the Sabbath, they follow popular traditions over obeying God. The Ten Commandments were never the 10 suggestions or choose the ones you want, this essentially makes one their own god. The one commandment everyone wants to forget it the one commandment God said Remember, is holy and blessed by God as if man can reverse that and the only commandment that points to the God of Creation Exo 20:11 written personally by His Authority Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16. We have to have room for faith.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

I have said before in threads like this that I actually believe you can defend your justification to observe the Sabbath by your confession. Observation of the Resurrection Day and worship of the risen Lord happened among the majority of the faithful. It is unfortunate that the state interfered on this but there were probably bad motives among some ( not most) of the old sabbath keepers also.

No One but GOD has the authority to change the commandments;

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (NKJV):
"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live, that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

Exodus 19:5 (NKJV):
"Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine."


God is your life and strength no one else.

Find a verse saying that the sabbath was changed, you wont be able to there are none.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Not true - Colossians 2:16.

Jesus Christ, who is God, did things on the Sabbath that had been assumed to be prohibited, and what is more, He told us how to remember Him - through partaking of His Body and Blood in the Eucharist.

This does not preclude worship on the Sabbath, which is why the Orthodox Church continues to have more liturgies on the Sabbath than any other day of the week except Sunday. All Coptic Orthodox churches for example will serve the Divine Liturgy on both Saturday and Sunday, and the Eastern Orthodox will do so where the resources exist - in particular I would note that practically every Sabbath from just prior to the start of the Great Lent through Bright Saturday, and again on the Saturday before Pentecost Sunday, has a worship service, including Soul Saturdays for the remembrance of our departed loved ones, the Raising of Lazarus on the day before Palm Sunday, Holy Saturday, on the day our Lord was entombed (the Vesperal Divine Liturgy is held on the morning of this day, and until 1955, the Paschal Vigil Mass in the Western tradition was held at that time), and the Saturday before St. Thomas Sunday or Antipascha (the Sunday following Pascha, also known as Low Sunday, or as we jokingly called it, Low Attendance Sunday, since in the Western churches there is a fall-off in attendance for that Sunday and Christmas Sunday which I find extremely frustrating, but it is much less pronounced in the Eastern churches where the core group of pious people can be counted on to be there most Sundays of the year.

Is Paul above GOD who gave all of us the commandments? Is Paul above Jesus who explicitly told us the commandments would NEVER change?
Do you realize the new covenant given BY GOD is the same as the old covenant but is put in the hearts of those who do his will and love him and cling to him?

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Whose definitions? Are you denying that Colossians 2:16 is an inspired Scripture?

The fact is that our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ told us how to remember Him - via the Eucharist. He did not tell us to continue celebrating the Sabbath in the exact manner that Second Temple Judaism celebrated it, but rather, reproached the Pharisees and Scribes of that era for the extreme approach they took to the Sabbath, just as he reproached them in Mark 7:13 for the entire Oral Torah concept, which would later be written down and would become the Mishnah, the basis for the Talmud and the Sulchan Aruch, which are a codification of the Torah as understood by Judaism.

What sabbaths were mentionned by paul in this verse?

 

[trophy33]

@JesusFollowerForever

1. Bible never mentions Saturday.
2. The Sabbath issue is being opened by the SDA members again and again, so its appropriate to address the root cause.
3. God did not give us the Mosaic Law commandments.
4. Paul is not above God, he is the apostle of God. Dismissing the authority of Paul is against the rules of these forums.
5. Jesus did not say that the Mosaic commandments will never change.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

@JesusFollowerForever

1. Bible never mentions Saturday.
2. The Sabbath issue is being opened by the SDA members again and again, so its appropriate to address the root cause.
3. God did not give us the Mosaic Law commandments.
4. Paul is not above God, he is the apostle of God. Dismissing the authority of Paul is against the rules of these forums.
5. Jesus did not say that the Mosaic commandments will never change.

I cannot believe I have to reply to this, It troubles me deeply that I have to defend the bible, the scriptures on a christian forum. Do you people do not know scripture or refuse it? But I tell you this, you refuse scripture. My answers are below from scrpture that you have forgotten.

1. Bible never mentions Saturday.
In the commandments Given by GOD, it says;

Exodus 20:8-11 (NKJV):
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."

Deuteronomy 5:12-15 (NKJV):
"Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day."

You know very well it is not mentionned saturday Jewish traditions as well as some christian traditions says it starts Friday at sunset and ends Saturday at sunset. but to make it simple in a text everybody used saturday.

2. The Sabbath issue is being opened by the SDA members again and again, so its appropriate to address the root cause.

I am not SDA but if this bothers you it because you know it is true! and will not change your ways, you prefer the words of men, ovet the clear words of God.

3. God did not give us the Mosaic Law commandments.

The 10 Commandments (the moral law) are part of the mosaic law but are distinct they are special, written by the finger of GOD himself and passed on on tablet of stone a permanent media to ensure they cannot be changed by MEN they were placed in the ARK OF THE COVENANT! the rest of the law of Moses was put OUTSIDE the ark of the covenant.

Note that this same ark of the covenant was seen in heaven,
Revelation 11:19:
"Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail."

Mark 10:19 (NKJV):
"You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Do not defraud,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'"

Jesus Was teaching the Commandments! and jesus sent the disciples to all pf the world to teach all that he said;

Matthew 28:18-20:
"18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.' Amen."

4. Paul is not above God, he is the apostle of God. Dismissing the authority of Paul is against the rules of these forums.

you say the right thing then it is the same I said by saying paul is not above GOD or Jesus. Jesus was given ALL AUTJHORITY I quoted this verse for you above, here it is again;
Matthew 28:18-20:
"18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. !!!!!!!

5. Jesus did not say that the Mosaic commandments will never change.

This prove you do not know your bible and the words of jesus the son of GOD who is One with GOD but that you follow a different doctrine.

Luke 16:17 (NKJV):
"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail."

Romans 3:31 (NKJV):
"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

James 2:10-11 (NKJV):
"10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, 'Do not commit adultery,' also said, 'Do not murder.' Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law."

Christ, Paul and James say the same thing. And do not tell me it was for jews only, you know Paul was ministering to the gentiles.

I may not stay with you much longer as is is written;

John 12:48-50 (NKJV):
"48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken on My own authority, but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

also

Mark 6:11 (NKJV):
"And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!"

 

[trophy33]

I cannot believe I have to reply to this, It troubles me deeply that I have to defend the bible, the scriptures on a christian forum. Do you people do not know scripture or refuse it? But I tell you this, you refuse scripture. My answers are below from scrpture that you have forgotten.

1. Bible never mentions Saturday.
In the commandments Given by GOD, it says;

Exodus 20:8-11 (NKJV):
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."

Deuteronomy 5:12-15 (NKJV):
"Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day."

You know very well it is not mentionned saturday Jewish traditions as well as some christian traditions says it starts Friday at sunset and ends Saturday at sunset. but to make it simple in a text everybody used saturday.

2. The Sabbath issue is being opened by the SDA members again and again, so its appropriate to address the root cause.

I am not SDA but if this bothers you it because you know it is true! and will not change your ways, you prefer the words of men, ovet the clear words of God.

3. God did not give us the Mosaic Law commandments.

The 10 Commandments (the moral law) are part of the mosaic law but are distinct they are special, written by the finger of GOD himself and passed on on tablet of stone a permanent media to ensure they cannot be changed by MEN they were placed in the ARK OF THE COVENANT! the rest of the law of Moses was put OUTSIDE the ark of the covenant.

Note that this same ark of the covenant was seen in heaven,
Revelation 11:19:
"Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail."

Mark 10:19 (NKJV):
"You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Do not defraud,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'"

Jesus Was teaching the Commandments! and jesus sent the disciples to all pf the world to teach all that he said;

Matthew 28:18-20:
"18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.' Amen."

4. Paul is not above God, he is the apostle of God. Dismissing the authority of Paul is against the rules of these forums.

you say the right thing then it is the same I said by saying paul is not above GOD or Jesus. Jesus was given ALL AUTJHORITY I quoted this verse for you above, here it is again;
Matthew 28:18-20:
"18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. !!!!!!!

5. Jesus did not say that the Mosaic commandments will never change.

This prove you do not know your bible and the words of jesus the son of GOD who is One with GOD but that you follow a different doctrine.

Luke 16:17 (NKJV):
"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail."

Romans 3:31 (NKJV):
"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

James 2:10-11 (NKJV):
"10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, 'Do not commit adultery,' also said, 'Do not murder.' Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law."

Christ, Paul and James say the same thing. And do not tell me it was for jews only, you know Paul was ministering to the gentiles.

I may not stay with you much longer as is is written;

John 12:48-50 (NKJV):
"48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken on My own authority, but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

also

Mark 6:11 (NKJV):
"And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!"

Your post is too verbal and too emotional. If you wish, try it again with short and precise answers to each point.

Sadly, I see no relevant reaction in your posts. For example, I said Bible never mentions Saturday and you replied with bunch of texts about Sabbath. I said God did not give us the Mosaic Law and you replied with bunch of texts about how it was given to ancient Israel. Similar shooting off target is also in the rest of your text.

 

[The Liturgist]

SDA is not the point here the sabbath is, please stop bashing other's beliefs, I believe it is not permitted on this site if i see it again i will check with the owners of this forum.

I have not “bashed” anyone’s beliefs, but on the other hand, there has been a consistent criticism by yourself and @SabbathBlessings of those churches which adhere to traditional doctrine concerning the Sabbath.

This has extended to a post that warned that at some point in the near future, we would be at risk of receiving the Mark of the Beast if we do not adhere to your denomination’s positions on the subject of the Sabbath, which is a fairly extreme criticism.

I did not report the post in question because it is permitted to criticize other people’s beliefs, up to a certain point. Also, every post I have made has been in response to posts criticizing traditional churches for their views on the Sabbath. I have also made it clear that I would have no problems with sabbatarians who did not constantly criticize non-sabbatarian churches, which the majority of SDA members do not, and indeed I am friends with some Messianic Judaism members of the site.

Dialogue about the Sabbath and the Law is what this specific forum was established for - this is not the Adventist subforum, where obviously it would be against the rules for me to criticize the SDA (but conversely, they can say whatever you want about us in that forum).

 

[The Liturgist]

The bible is official! the sabbath ( the 4th commandment) was ordained by GOD on Saturday and will never change, it is men who changed it not GOD.

The thread was about what sources are official as sources of Roman Catholic Doctrine, in response to the assertion of @SabbathBlessings that the official position of the Roman Catholic Church was that they had changed the date of the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, but the documents she provided which apparently claimed that are not official pubilications of the Vatican..

Obviously, all Christian churches accept the Bible as official, so the question here is one of interpretation. But in order to understand how Roman Catholics interpret the Bible, we need to make sure we are using official sources of Roman Catholic doctrine, as opposed to unofficial, obsolete or spurious third-party sources, since our traditional Catholic friend @chevyontheriver denied that that was the teaching, and pointed out the documents cited were not official sources, and also that the function of the imprimatur was being misunderstood (which I had asserted previously as well).

Additionally, as I had pointed out previously, the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church are not relevant as criticisms of the decision making process of the Orthodox Church of myself or @Lukaris or the Lutheran church of @Ain't Zwinglian and @MarkRohfrietsch.

The sabbath is one of the test the lord puts before us to see if we love him enough to follow his words.

Again, this is an example of a remark that seems to imply that Bad Things Will Happen if non-sabbatarian denominations do not change their doctrine so as to match that of Sabbatarians in terms of how they interpret and follow the Sabbath commandment, which in the Orthodox Church we absolutely do follow, insofar as we have worship services on Saturday as well as Sunday, and furthermore the repose of Christ on the seventh day is remembered through the Eucharist.

 

[The Liturgist]

Is Paul above GOD who gave all of us the commandments? Is Paul above Jesus who explicitly told us the commandments would NEVER change?

The words of the Holy Apostle Paul are part of the New Testament and are an authoritative part of Holy Scripture, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Do you realize the new covenant given BY GOD is the same as the old covenant but is put in the hearts of those who do his will and love him and cling to him?

That’s your interpretation, but I disagree, based on the contents of the New Testament and the historic interpretation of the Bible by both the Early Church Fathers and the Reformers such as Martin Luther, et cetera, that that interpretation is correct.

It seems in particular to clash with the inspired writings of St. Paul.

I would of course be prepared to change my mind if you were able to address the concerns I have raised about the compatibility of certain Sabbatarian doctrinal positions both with the actions of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ as recorded in the New Testament and the writings of the Holy Apostle Paul in several epistles.

However, obviously we would have to clarify your understanding of the inspiration of the Epistles of St. Paul.

 

[The Liturgist]

I cannot believe I have to reply to this, It troubles me deeply that I have to defend the bible, the scriptures on a christian forum. Do you people do not know scripture or refuse it? But I tell you this, you refuse scripture. My answers are below from scrpture that you have forgotten.

You can cite that, but I can cite Galatians 2:16 , Galatians 2:21, Romans 11:6, John 5:24, Romans 8:1, Matthew 12:1-8, Matthew 16-16 , and many others which I have cited throughout this thread, but at no point has anyone addressed the verses I quoted directly.

Instead, we have seen 2 Peter 3:16 used as a sort of catch-all to invalidate my quotations of St. Paul, based on the unsupported idea that 2 Peter 3:16 means that the Pauline epistles are so hard to interpret that no one can understand what they mean* as well as various tangential criticisms of Roman Catholicism, which had nothing to do with anything at hand.

*Which if it were the case, the early church would never have included them as canonical Scriptures, nor would the early Church Fathers, Martin Luther, John Wesley and other theologians have written commentaries on them, et cetera; while at times they may have been challenging or confusing for the Jewish readers of St. Peter, his point was that they were nonetheless authoritative, and could be correctly understood in the Church.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I have not “bashed” anyone’s beliefs, but on the other hand, there has been a consistent criticism by yourself and @SabbathBlessings of those churches which adhere to traditional doctrine concerning the Sabbath.

This has extended to a post that warned that at some point in the near future, we would be at risk of receiving the Mark of the Beast if we do not adhere to your denomination’s positions on the subject of the Sabbath, which is a fairly extreme criticism.

I did not report the post in question because it is permitted to criticize other people’s beliefs, up to a certain point. Also, every post I have made has been in response to posts criticizing traditional churches for their views on the Sabbath. I have also made it clear that I would have no problems with sabbatarians who did not constantly criticize non-sabbatarian churches, which the majority of SDA members do not, and indeed I am friends with some Messianic Judaism members of the site.

Dialogue about the Sabbath and the Law is what this specific forum was established for - this is not the Adventist subforum, where obviously it would be against the rules for me to criticize the SDA (but conversely, they can say whatever you want about us in that forum).

Basic standard hermenuetical rules solves this for me. The NT interprets the OT. All the moral law (10 commandments) are reiterated in the NT except honoring the Sabbath. Therefore, I am not held to keep the Sabbath.

 

[The Liturgist]

Basic standard hermenuetical rules solves this for me. The NT interprets the OT. All the moral law (10 commandments) are reiterated in the NT except honoring the Sabbath. Therefore, I am not held to keep the Sabbath.

This is a valid and interesting point, particularly when read in conjunction with Colossians 2:16. And we do know, from the ending of the Gospel According to Luke, that the New Testament interprets the Old and not vice-versa, since Christ our Lord God and Savior “opened the books” for the Disciples and showed them how the Law and the Prophets were about Him.

My view is that we keep it anyway, but the manner in which keep it is different from how the Jews keep it - specifically, the Sabbath for them was a remembrance of God resting on the seventh day, but the only time God could actually have rested, from His perspective, was in the tomb on Holy Saturday, after recreating man in His own image on the Cross. Therefore, when we partake of the Eucharist in remembrance of Christ our True God, we have honored the Sabbath. And we have additionally honored it with services that occur on Saturday, especially the Paschal Vigil.

But Christ our True God made it clear through His actions that the kind of rigid Sabbath-keeping that characterized Pharisaical Judaism in particular, but also Second Temple Judaism more generally, was not required.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is no scripture that says because one of the commandments is not repeated therefore we can profane, as if God is a different God in the OT as He is in the NT?

Yet even so....

The Sabbath is still a commandment in the NT Luke 23:56
Kept by everyone we are to follow Jesus and the apostles who faithfully kept every Sabbath Luke 4:18 Acts 15:21 Acts 13:42-44 Acts 18:4
The Sabbath rest (keeping) remains for God's people Heb 4:9NIV
The Sabbath was made for man- the word here means mankind Mark 2:27 and Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath Mar 2:28 certainly did not end
If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15- no where was the Sabbath commandment abrogated in all of scripture
Its quite foolish to think we should keep 9 out of 10 commandments but forget the only commandment that God said Remember and is holy and blessed by God that no man can reverse. We have to have room for faith. God's people keep God's commandments Rev 14:12 because breaking one of them even in the NT is like breaking them all James 2:10-12

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You can cite that, but I can cite Galatians 2:16 , Galatians 2:21, Romans 11:6, John 5:24, Romans 8:1, Matthew 12:1-8, Matthew 16-16 , and

Not one of these verses say not to keep the Sabbath commandment, adding what is not there is not a good idea.

 

[The Liturgist]

Not one of these verses say not to keep the Sabbath commandment, adding what is not there is not a good idea.

I never said those verses say not to keep the Sabbath commandment. They merely challenge your interpretation of what keeping it means.