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Interesting decision ...

Xeno.of.athens

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Australia's newest Catholic Cardinal says he has no idea why the Pope chose him but that "God works in mysterious ways."

At 44 years old he's the youngest Cardinal in the world.

He is not yet an Australian citizen.

He has no connection to Cardinal Pell (deceased).

What do you think of the choice?
 

chevyontheriver

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Australia's newest Catholic Cardinal says he has no idea why the Pope chose him but that "God works in mysterious ways."

At 44 years old he's the youngest Cardinal in the world.

He is not yet an Australian citizen.

He has no connection to Cardinal Pell (deceased).

What do you think of the choice?
The pope killed two birds with one stone. He failed to give the major archbishop of the UGCC a cardinal’s hat, making a mess there AND he failed to appoint an Australian successor to cardinal Pell, making a mess there. He has confused a lot of people. Oh well, papal appointments are not infallible, and this appointment wasn’t the worst of them.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The pope killed two birds with one stone. He failed to give the major archbishop of the UGCC a cardinal’s hat, making a mess there AND he failed to appoint an Australian successor to cardinal Pell, making a mess there. He has confused a lot of people. Oh well, papal appointments are not infallible, and this appointment wasn’t the worst of them.
The lack of association with Cardinal Pell (may he rest in peace) represents a political and potentially moral triumph for righteousness. Additionally, the appointment of a Ukrainian Catholic bishop as a cardinal elector presents an intriguing dynamic for the forthcoming selection of Pope Francis' successor.
 
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chevyontheriver

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The lack of association with Cardinal Pell (may he rest in peace) represents a political and potentially moral triumph for righteousness.
I don’t see that. Cardinal Pell was a great man hung out to dry.
Additionally, the appointment of a Ukrainian Catholic bishop as a cardinal elector presents an intriguing dynamic for the forthcoming selection of Pope Francis' successor.
The head of the UGCC could have been made a cardinal as were his predecessors. It would have made some sense. He would be papable if made a cardinal. I think his reaction against Fiducia supplicans destroyed his chances with pope Francis though.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I don’t see that. Cardinal Pell was a great man hung out to dry.

The head of the UGCC could have been made a cardinal as were his predecessors. It would have made some sense. He would be papable if made a cardinal. I think his reaction against Fiducia supplicans destroyed his chances with pope Francis though.
I do not know about your perception of Cardinal Pell; in Australia he was both loved and hated by Catholics. I thought he was innocent of the claims made against him, but I also thought his public face was not sympathetic. But he is gone now, and the new cardinal, God willing, will be a good one.

 
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The Liturgist

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I don’t see that. Cardinal Pell was a great man hung out to dry.

The head of the UGCC could have been made a cardinal as were his predecessors. It would have made some sense. He would be papable if made a cardinal. I think his reaction against Fiducia supplicans destroyed his chances with pope Francis though.

That’s shocking that the Pope hasn’t made him a cardinal. Perhaps he fears that the Major Archbishop could become the next Pope.

Although I myself after some reflection and a study of the UGCC’s liturgical issues ans political involvement would prefer Raymond Cardinal Burke or especially Gerhard Cardinal Muller, so as to restore continuity with Pope St. Benedict XVI (if Rome won’t officially canonize him, I can venerate him privately as a glorified saint). By the way if anyone is aware of any icons of Pope Benedict, I think I should like to get one.
 
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The Liturgist

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Australia's newest Catholic Cardinal says he has no idea why the Pope chose him but that "God works in mysterious ways."

At 44 years old he's the youngest Cardinal in the world.

He is not yet an Australian citizen.

He has no connection to Cardinal Pell (deceased).

What do you think of the choice?

I do like that a Ukrainian Greek Catholic was made Cardinal is potentially good for the liturgy, potentially bad for relations with the Orthodox, but its a huge breakthrough for Eastern Catholics who have historically been treated like second class citizens in many Western Catholic countries, for one of them to be made the seniormost bishop of a country like Australia.

On the other hand, it might not adversely impact Roman Catholic-Orthodox relations, since Pope Francis has a strong personal relationship with Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, the former Director of External Church Relations of the Moscow Patriarchate and presently the Metropolitan of the Russian Orthodox Church in Hungary, which is a vital post for interfacing with Roman Catholics in the conservative pro-Catholic government of Viktor Orban, which is naturally highly appealing to the Orthodox. There is also a Hungarian Greek Catholic Church, whose members are mostly ethnically Ruthenian I believe.

All in all this is less of a disaster than his new Brazilian Cardinal, and possibly a positive development,
 
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chevyontheriver

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That’s shocking that the Pope hasn’t made him a cardinal. Perhaps he fears that the Major Archbishop could become the next Pope.
And undo most of the Francis legacy. PLEASE.
Although I myself after some reflection and a study of the UGCC’s liturgical issues ans political involvement would prefer Raymond Cardinal Burke or especially Gerhard Cardinal Muller,
Cardinal Muller might be really good. Cardinal Burke is a friend of a friend of mine. He would be good too. Almost anyone at this point though. If only cardinal Sarah could be elected. And maybe the Africans will unite on him. I don't need a rock star pope, or a globe trotting pope, or a long lived pope. Just one who prays before appointing people.
so as to restore continuity with Pope St. Benedict XVI (if Rome won’t officially canonize him, I can venerate him privately as a glorified saint).
You can, with suitable investigation of your own, consider anyone to be a saint. Some people I hang out with are really mad at him for resigning and allowing pope Francis to be foisted upon us. For myself, special as I think Benedict XVI was, I think it wise to wait about 50 years before canonization. No 'Sante subito' for me. But do feel free. Pray for his intercession. And let us know what happens.
By the way if anyone is aware of any icons of Pope Benedict, I think I should like to get one.
There are pictures aplenty but I know of no icons. I have a picture of him in my living room. My grandson was given a painting of John Paul II, which 'might' qualify as an icon of sorts.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I do like that a Ukrainian Greek Catholic was made Cardinal is potentially good for the liturgy, potentially bad for relations with the Orthodox, but its a huge breakthrough for Eastern Catholics who have historically been treated like second class citizens in many Western Catholic countries, for one of them to be made the seniormost bishop of a country like Australia.
Here is the oddity with that. He isn't an archbishop. So he kind of ISN'T the seniormost bishop. But then he sort of is too. This is also true of cardinal McElroy of bishop of San Diego in the Los Angeles area, with archbishop Gomez who was a worthy candidate for cardinal in his own right, but who treated retired cardinal Mahoney dismissively (and properly) by limiting his rights in the Los Angeles diocese. Gomez also complained about Joe Biden getting the Eucharist. Not a friend of Francis.
On the other hand, it might not adversely impact Roman Catholic-Orthodox relations, since Pope Francis has a strong personal relationship with Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, the former Director of External Church Relations of the Moscow Patriarchate and presently the Metropolitan of the Russian Orthodox Church in Hungary, which is a vital post for interfacing with Roman Catholics in the conservative pro-Catholic government of Viktor Orban, which is naturally highly appealing to the Orthodox. There is also a Hungarian Greek Catholic Church, whose members are mostly ethnically Ruthenian I believe.
We shall see.
All in all this is less of a disaster than his new Brazilian Cardinal, and possibly a positive development,
How many train wrecks can we have at one time?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Here is the oddity with that. He isn't an archbishop. So he kind of ISN'T the seniormost bishop. But then he sort of is too. This is also true of cardinal McElroy of bishop of San Diego in the Los Angeles area, with archbishop Gomez who was a worthy candidate for cardinal in his own right, but who treated retired cardinal Mahoney dismissively (and properly) by limiting his rights in the Los Angeles diocese. Gomez also complained about Joe Biden getting the Eucharist. Not a friend of Francis.

We shall see.

How many train wrecks can we have at one time?
Here's an interesting homily

Regarding the political stance of Joe Biden, it is a consideration whether a legislator can adhere to Church teachings personally (rejecting abortion within his own family), while concurrently not imposing these matters of conscience as criminal offenses under civil law, thus avoiding the involvement of police, prosecution, and judicial enforcement against those who diverge on such matters of conscience. Do you think that Joe Biden ought to lobby Congress to make abortion a federal crime?
 
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chevyontheriver

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Regarding the political stance of Joe Biden, it is a consideration whether a legislator can adhere to Church teachings personally (rejecting abortion within his own family), while concurrently not imposing these matters of conscience as criminal offenses under civil law, thus avoiding the involvement of police, prosecution, and judicial enforcement against those who diverge on such matters of conscience.
Right. Legislators have to keep from imposing anything that is a matter of Church teaching on morals so that no police, or prosecutors, or the judicial offices could ever enforce against anybody who diverges on matters of conscience. If my conscience as a member of the Mob says I need to kill that guy, the law should be hands off. If my priest thinks as a matter of conscience he needs to have sex with that boy, thee law should be hands off. If I decide in keeping with my conscience that I can sometimes drive at 90 MPH, the law should be hands off. Oh, and likewise for abortion.
Do you think that Joe Biden ought to lobby Congress to make abortion a federal crime?
He should have. A moral person would have done so. But Joe kind of did the opposite of that. And we don't know for sure whether Joe rejected abortion within his own family either. That is his business. But it is the people's business that all humans be afforded dignity, and that didn't happen under Joe Biden. He worked for the opposite.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Right. Legislators have to keep from imposing anything that is a matter of Church teaching on morals so that no police, or prosecutors, or the judicial offices could ever enforce against anybody who diverges on matters of conscience. If my conscience as a member of the Mob says I need to kill that guy, the law should be hands off. If my priest thinks as a matter of conscience he needs to have sex with that boy, thee law should be hands off. If I decide in keeping with my conscience that I can sometimes drive at 90 MPH, the law should be hands off. Oh, and likewise for abortion.
It is important to give due consideration to law and order, as well as public safety. Laws are in place to ensure the safety and order of the public. If individuals were to act solely on personal conscience, it could result in disorder. Therefore, my previous statement does not imply that all moral teachings from the Church should be subject to individual conscience, nor does it suggest that a sitting President should refrain from urging Congress to enact laws on moral issues. My comments were specific to the topic you mentioned, specifically Joe Biden and his participation in holy communion.

Moreover, my post was primarily about bishops and their relationship with the faithful, which was the focus of the homily I shared.

For myself I say
:
one may believe that Christian faith and loyalty to a particular political party are not equivalent, even if the party opposes abortion. Politics is inherently complex, and voting decisions are not based solely on a single policy area. While Joe Biden is not a candidate in the 2024 election, he did campaign in 2020 to retain the Roe Vs Wade decriminalization of abortion and actively campaigned to keep the federal government's financial backing for clinics providing services that include abortion. Personally, I do not endorse abortion nor the allocation of federal funds for medical procedures that are intended to result in abortion.

But this thread is not intended to be about worldly political parties, nor about a Catholic's voting intentions, nor about Joe Biden and holy communion which is a matter for his bishop to decide.
 
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Bob Crowley

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I think it was partly a message to Putin. Secondly Cardinal Bychok was already the "eparch for Ukrainian Catholics in Australia, New Zealand and Oceania".


He himself said it was possibly a signal to Putin, and also insisted his primary responsiblity was to Ukrainian Catholics in the South West Pacific.

I don't think it's meant to imply that he has some sort of seniority in the Australian Church. Cardinal Pell was well known in Australian circles. He'd worked with high level church and political figures for a long time,and the media knew him well.

I doubt if most Australian Catholics would have even heard of this new Cardinal. I certainly hadn't.

I also believe Pell was innocent of the charges against him - I think his enemies were out to "get him".
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I also believe Pell was innocent of the charges against him - I think his enemies were out to "get him".
I concur with your points, and I believe the statement I've quoted may hold truth. However, I'm uncertain if it was as much his adversaries seeking his downfall, or rather an individual who believed—possibly in error—that he had been wronged by Pell during Pell's early tenure in the Australian Catholic Church. The High Court's decision to overturn Pell's conviction seems just to me. Additionally, Cardinal Pell's video interviews may have inadvertently portrayed him as aloof and unsympathetic, although that may not reflect his true nature; it's the impression his on-screen demeanor conveyed.
 
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Bob Crowley

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That's one of the problems with today's all-pervasive media. Way back during the Lindy Chamberlain case in 1982 (same year I became a Christian) when she was jailed for killing her daughter, when a dingo had done it, I remember reading a comment by a conservative journalist, David McNicholl, who has long since departed this life.


He remarked it was partly the result of an "unsympathetic media appearance" as though she had herself to blame for not appearing more emotional.

My old pastor wasn't deceived. He wrote a letter to the Northern Territory government pointing out there was no evidence and no motive. He was scathing about the case.

Anyway I think that the Pell case had similar features - he portrayed an "unsympathetic media appearance".

I personally believe the accusation was a conspiracy, and that someone coached the plaintiff on what to say and how to say it. To reduce the pressure on him, it was arranged so that he didn't have to give his evidence face to face in court.

I'm a cynic.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I personally believe the accusation was a conspiracy, and that someone coached the plaintiff on what to say and how to say it. To reduce the pressure on him, it was arranged so that he didn't have to give his evidence face to face in court.
It is the case that one of the two choirboys, the one referred to as "B," had passed away before the allegations against Cardinal George Pell went to trial.
 
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Bob Crowley

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As far as I'm aware "B" never stated he'd been abused by Cardinal Pell.


B was deceased, and had stated to his mother before his death that he had never been sexually abused while a choirboy.[4]
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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