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Who is Israel?

The Liturgist

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@Guojing is exactly right. You can spiritualize almost anything. That is why there are Preterists.

It is impossible to interpret Scripture in a purely literal manner, since even if one conducts this process perfectly, using the most careful exegetical techniques, and the most sound logic, there will still necessarily be a decision tree or network of hierarchical hermeneutical precepts governing the interpretation, and furthermore, a purely literal interpretation of a potentially unfulfilled prophetic text will not yield any information beyond the text of the prophecy, since as we see throughout Scripture, people are often surprised by what prophecies actually turned out to mean, the supreme example being the prophecy of the Messiah - by the time of Christ, almost no one remained who believed that the Messiah would actually be God Himself, and that He would present Himself with such graceful humility, indeed, we see very few examples other than St. John the Baptist, or St. Symeon, who beheld the infant incarnate God, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, in Luke chapter 2, and sang the canticle “Nunc Dimitis” (“Lord, let thy servant depart in peace…”) in response. But a great many Jews (perhaps a majority, perhaps not, but only a minority among the Kochin Jews of India or the Beta Israel of Ethiopia) were never able to understand that this humble man was not only the Christ but also God incarnate, the Son of Man, and the only-begotten Son and Word of God, by whom all things were made.
 
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All Becomes New

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It is impossible to interpret Scripture in a purely literal manner, since even if one conducts this process perfectly, using the most careful exegetical techniques, and the most sound logic, there will still necessarily be a decision tree or network of hierarchical hermeneutical precepts governing the interpretation, and furthermore, a purely literal interpretation of a potentially unfulfilled prophetic text will not yield any information beyond the text of the prophecy, since as we see throughout Scripture, people are often surprised by what prophecies actually turned out to mean, the supreme example being the prophecy of the Messiah - by the time of Christ, almost no one remained who believed that the Messiah would actually be God Himself, and that He would present Himself with such graceful humility, indeed, we see very few examples other than St. John the Baptist, or St. Symeon, who beheld the infant incarnate God, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, in Luke chapter 2, and sang the canticle “Nunc Dimitis” (“Lord, let thy servant depart in peace…”) in response. But a great many Jews (perhaps a majority, perhaps not, but only a minority among the Kochin Jews of India or the Beta Israel of Ethiopia) were never able to understand that this humble man was not only the Christ but also God incarnate, the Son of Man, and the only-begotten Son and Word of God, by whom all things were made.

I'd need a reason why Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31 are to be taken spiritually and not literally. Never mind the fact that most people who believe in replacement theology no longer think Jesus being Jewish is at all relevant. And you are still saying, more or less, "Yes, the prophecy has come true. And it came true in a way that is spiritualized so much as if to be utterly redundant." When Christ claimed to be God, it was MORE than what people thought, not less. That's a key difference. Seldom, if ever, is the fulfillment of prophecy a dumbed-down version of what the expectation is.
 
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The Liturgist

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All Becomes New

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I did not comment on either of those pericopes.

Then, I am not quite sure why you were responding to me at all, as that was what I originally said and was being discussed.
 
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Guojing

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No, I disagree that its a literal interpretation. A literal interpretation should be a matter of debate, but rather should be based on the plain meaning of the text.

This is my criticism of your approach. You claim your interpretation of Zechariah is the literal interpretation, but this is not the case, for your interpretation reads meanings into the text which are not indicated therein, but rather are derived from Chiliast concepts about the Millenium, based on an eisegetical literal reading of Revelation, which is itself contradicted in numerous other places explicitly, for example, in 2 Peter.

I don't get your usage of all these unnecessary complicated terms and connections.

Let's just use the example of Zechariah 8:23. As I have stated repeatedly

Zechariah 8:23 is obviously not happening now, nor ever in the past, literally.

No one today is going to Jerusalem by "taking hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you"

How is my interpretation not literal here? Am I not reading the passage plainly?
 
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The Liturgist

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You did not say anything about Zechariah 8:23.

I addressed the specific errors you were making in your attempt at a literal interpretation of that entire chapter. In what respect do you think my post did not address your interpretation of v. 23?
 
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JEBofChristTheLord

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So what do you think Paul was doing when he stated in Romans 11:1?

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not cast away His people. His people left Him, and He maintains the offer of repentance. Are you not familiar with that which is written in the Prophets? Or the corroborating statements by Christ the Lord?
 
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HarleyER

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Then the statement is completely redundant.
Hmmm...that is an interesting comment. However, it is true.

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.​

People who are appointed to eternal life believes. That also seems redundant, doesn't it?
 
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All Becomes New

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Hmmm...that is an interesting comment. However, it is true.

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.​

People who are appointed to eternal life believes. That also seems redundant, doesn't it?

Appoint does not mean "ordained."

Appoint Acts 13.48.png
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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You did not say anything about Zechariah 8:23.

They shall lay hold of the skirt of one man who is a Jew
Jerome: “That is, of the Lord and Saviour, of whom it is said, “A prince shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until He shall come, for whom it is laid up, and for Him shall the Gentiles wait” Genesis 49:8-10; for “there shall be a rod of Jesse, and He who shall arise to rule over the Gentiles, to Him shall the Gentiles seek” Isaiah 11:10. And when they shall lay hold of Him, they shall desire to tread in His steps, since God is with Him. Or else, whosoever shall believe out of all nations, shall lay hold of a man who is a Jew, the Apostles who are from the Jews, and shall say, Let us go with you; for we have known through the prophets and from the voice of all the Scriptures, that the Son of God, Christ, God and Lord, is with you. Where there is a most manifest prophecy, and the coming of Christ and His Apostles and the faith of all nations is preached, let us seek for nothing more.”​

Cyril: “Christ turning our sorrow into joy and a feast and good days and gladness, and transferring lamentation into cheerfulness, the accession to the faith and union to God by sanctification in those called to salvation shall not henceforth be individually; but the cities shall exhort each other thereto, and all nations shall come in multitudes, the later ever calling out to those before them, “I too will go.” For it is written, “iron sharpeneth iron, so doth a man the countenence of another” Proverbs 27:17. For the zeal of some is ever found to call forth others to fulfill what is good. But what is the aim proposed to the cities, that is, the Gentiles? “To entreat and to seek the face of the Lord,” that is, Christ, who is the exact image of God the Father, and, as is written, “the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His Person” Heb_1:3, of whom also the divine David saith, “Shew Thy countenance to Thy servant” Psalm 119:135.​
[quoted from Albert Barnes's notes on the bible]
 
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HarleyER

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Appoint does not mean "ordained."

View attachment 355624
Psalm 139:
13 For You created my innermost parts;​
You wove me in my mother’s womb.​
14 I will give thanks to You, because I am awesomely and wonderfully made;​
Wonderful are Your works,​
And my soul knows it very well.​
15 My frame was not hidden from You​
When I was made in secret,​
And skillfully formed in the depths of the earth;​
16 Your eyes have seen my formless substance;
And in Your book were written
All the days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them. (NASB)
 
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ViaCrucis

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God never returned physically to Jerusalem in the first place during the OT time period, so I have no idea why you say Zechariah 8 has already happened post-exile.

Was God present among His people post-Exile?

And when Jesus came at his first coming, only a remnant of Israel believed him, and not the entire nation. Zechariah 8:23 was certainly not happening then.

So the nations haven't come to know Israel's God through Jesus?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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During the millennial reign of Christ, you will see that everyone from the nation of Israel will be fulfilling that Hebrews passage literally.

All of them will know everything about the Lord without having anyone to teach them.

And now you are just making things up.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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@Guojing is exactly right. You can spiritualize almost anything. That is why there are Preterists.

You're dodging.

What makes it redundant?

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15,

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ."

Is this a redundant statement?

When Paul writes in Romans 10,

"For the Scripture says, 'Everyone who believes in Him will not be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing His riches on all who call on Him. For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'"

Is this redundant?

So what makes Hebrews 8:11 redundant?

"And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest."

In 1 Corinthians 15, "all" is all who are in Christ. In Romans 10, "all" is all who have faith in Christ. In Hebrews 8, "all" is all who have received the New Covenant of Christ. In each case it's the same thing. It's all about Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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So what do you think Paul was doing when he stated in Romans 11:1?

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

In the same way that God did not turn away from the Gentile nations, but has always been long-suffering; so God has not turned away from unbelieving Jews, but is also long-suffering.

The answer to God's patience and long-suffering is found throughout Scripture, but one of the best places comes from the words of St. Peter, that God is not slow as men count slowness, but is patient, because He desires that all come to repentance and be saved.

God, at no point, has rejected any people or persons; it is the will of God that all be saved. Which is why we see example after example of the non-Jew coming to faith through the Old Testament, because it was always about faith. And it's why Paul remains hopeful, in the God of all mercy, who suffered long in the unbelief of the world, and even in the faithlessness of Israel, who would embrace the Greeks, would in no way reject the Jews; and so that, ultimately, all having been consigned to disobedience means that God has mercy on all (Romans 11:32), even as Paul had said way back in the beginning of the epistle, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek". Because the whole point of Romans is the universal problem of sin; the universal condemnation under the Law, and the universal mercy of God through the Gospel to all sinners.

This is why reading Romans all the way through is helpful.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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The Liturgist

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I'll suggest that "Israel" is the man first named Jacob, whom God renamed Israel, his descendants, and adoptees. I'll note that those of Israel who convert to Christ, are no longer of Israel, because we are all born again, our fatherhood has been changed

Christ our True God is commonly misquoted and misunderstood on this point. What our Lord was seeking to criticize herein was the Pharisaical tendency towards pride and an authoritarian attitude among religious leaders, especially the Rabbinical authorities and the Sanhedrin, rather than a complete prohibition between forming paternal or teaching relationships between fellow humans. After all, the importance of our relationship with our own human father is used by our Lord elsewhere as a metaphor, and furthermore, we see the Holy Apostle Paul refer to human paternal relationships, for instance, referring to Onesimus and Timothy as his sons in Philemon 1:10 and 1 Timothy 1:2, and, more importantly, in 1 Corinthians 4:15, we see the Apostle refer to himself as the sole spiritual father of the Corinthians while also stating that they have many teachers of the faith (“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”)

Likewise, subsequent to this incident, there were occasions when Jesus Christ permitted the disciples and others to refer to him as Rabbi, which means “master” or “teacher”, and additionally, in Acts 13:11, several apostles are enumerated as teachers of the Church in Antioch (where we are first called Christians) and in Ephesians 4:11 , the Holy Apostle Paul enumerates teachers as one of the essential offices of the church. And in Acts 11:24, the Apostle Barnabas is referred to as good, and likewise in the Gospel According to Luke, which like Acts, was written after our Lord had said “call no man good”, St. Joseph of Arimathea is called a good and upright man, and likewise Saints Zechariah and Elizabeth are called “righteous in the sight of God.”

So clearly either St. Paul the Apostle and St. Luke the Evangelist sinned grievously and repeatedly, violating a direct rhetorical commandment, or else, if we look at the context of that verse rather than reading it eisegetically, in isolation, it becomes clear that it is one of several instances in which our Lord condemns the self-righteousness and inflated egos of the Pharisees and their traditions, another being Mark 7:13, which were being written down by the Scribes and would eventually be compiled into the Mishnah, which would be the subject of the vast commentary of Rabinnical Law called the Talmud, and which would form the basis for codes of Jewish Law, such as the Sulchan Aruch, and a similiar codification by Maimonides, which would have the effect of displacing the Torah itself as a quick reference as to what the Law said, given that the traditions of the Pharisees often greatly exceeded what was actually required in the Torah, or in some cases, appear to contradict it, in the name of making it impossible to violate the Torah by creating a fence around it (for example, the fringes, or tzitzit are supposed to be dyed blue and white, but only Karaite Jews (who reject the Mishnah and the Talmud and the office of Rabbi) do this, because among the Rabinnical Jews, they believe the recipe for blue dye is lost, and that any deviation from the exact color of blue intended in the scripture would be sinful, and therefore the only acceptable course is to dye the tzitzit in the white color.

But these verses are of course widely misapplied, for example, in order to abuse the Roman Catholic Church, and the Anglican Communion (which is the largest Protestant denomination in the world, and one of the most important in terms of the work it does in evangelism, charity and education), and the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East, all denominations in which presbyters and certain bishops are referred to as “Father.”

Likewise, the pericope of the wealthy young man that you cited is also frequently abused by anti-Trinitarian heretics who reject the Nicene Creed and deny that Jesus Christ is God Incarnate, the only begotten Son and Word of God, of one essence with the Father, who became man, uniting our humanity with His divinity without change, confusion, separation or division, and revealing to us the Father in His incarnation. It is also likewise abused by those who deny the deity and personhood of God the Holy Spirit. Indeed, to modern day Arians like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, this verse must seem like a Swiss army knife with which they can in one breadth deny the doctrines of the Deity of Christ, the Holy Trinity and discredit the Roman Catholic Church (and in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, the Eastern Orthodox Church) that their cult spends so much time attacking, so as to deflect criticism away from itself pre-emptively and create a reason for people to want to convert to it, since evidently the Witnesses know so much more about the Bible, but really, they are using the verse eisegetically, without regards to what the rest of the New Testament, or Scripture as a whole, has to say.*

Now, to be clear, I am not accusing you of engaging in such a desultory misuse of the verse, but I do nonetheless feel you have it quite wrong, because, simply put, God the Father is God the Father, whether one accepts him or not. Those who do not accept him but hate him inadvertently make the devil their spiritual father, as our Lord points out, but those who do accept him have spiritual fathers who represent Him and teach us.

In addition, the view that you espouse is further contradicted by St. Paul in Galatians 6:16, and in Romans 9:6-7, and elsewhere in the New Testament - it is made quite clear that Israel continued as the Church, although this fact does not justify any discrimination against the Jewish people.

Indeed I would like to say, for the record, that since the terrorist attacks on the State of Israel, which is a legitimate nation state, last year, I have been appalled by the shocking increase in anti-Semitism, which has risen to a level not seen in the West since the revelation of the true horrors of the Holocaust at the end of WWII, and thus, like my friend @tampasteve , I stand with Israel, that is to say, the State of Israel, in that the terrorist attrocities they have been subjected to and are responding to are akin to those that the US has been subjected to and is responding to.
 
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The Liturgist

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God has not cast away His people. His people left Him, and He maintains the offer of repentance. Are you not familiar with that which is written in the Prophets? Or the corroborating statements by Christ the Lord?

The offer of repentance is available to everyone, for, as the Epistle of the Galatians says in Ch. 3 v. 28, “there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither free nor slave, neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

The four canonical gospel books, while the center of the New Testament, and the most venerable books in Scripture, exceeding even the Psalter and the Torah, should not be read in a manner that contradicts the Epistles, for these are an inspired guide to Christian doctrine in the form of the correspondence of the Holy Apostles Peter, John, James, Jude and Paul (and perhaps one other in the case of Hebrews, the exact authorship of which being a subject of uncertainty since antiquity), and the one Gospel as a whole delivered once to the Apostles is collectively taught by the New Testament and reinforced by the books of the Old Testament when those are read in a Christological manner, that is to say, with the understanding that they are about Christ our True God, as He revealed to the disciples in the Gospel According to Luke before His Ascension, when he “opened the books” and explained to the Eleven how the books of the Law and Prophets testified about Him, a point further emphasized in the Gospel According to Matthew, which makes a point of explicitly connecting Old Testament prophecies to the Synoptic narrative (in my childhood, it was my favorite Gospel for this reason, as it made it very easy for me to understand; I now no longer have a favorite and love all four books equally), and the the Gospel According to John stresses this in an elegant manner, by beginning with what is effectively a Christological gloss of Genesis 1, showing that the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, Jesus Christ, was coeternal and coequal with His Father, “very God of very God” as the Nicene Creed says, “by whom all things were made,” and that He became incarnate for our salvation, so as to reveal the Father to us, and this has the effect of identifying Christ as the New Adam, but also connects His incarnation to the Genesis narrative, for it is the case that Christ remade mankind in His image on the Cross, on the sixth day, before reposing in a tomb on the seventh, and then rising from the dead having trampled down death by death on the first day, as the first fruits of the Resurrection, and this also aludes to the mystical eighth day of creation - that is to say, the life of the World to Come, when we shall be changed and will ourselves rise from the dead, incorruptible, and face the judgement of Christ Pantocrator.

There, before the dread judgement seat of Christ, those of us who love Him will dwell with Him in the world to come, and those who hate Him will, in an act of mercy, be cast into the outer darkness. This may sound strange, but if we consider once more the scriptural text, those who experience the consuming fire of God’s love as the torment of His wrath as a result of their sin (which in Greek, hamartia, means “to miss the mark”) aligning them in opposition to God, so that being in His immediate presence in the New Jerusalem would be an unbearable torment, and for this reason, the Outer Darkness is a mercy - the torment, the undying worm of those in the outer darkness, can be described as self-inflicted. Indeed, the most severe torment, as St. John Chrysostom, the Patriarch of Constantinople at the turn of the fifth century*, pointed out, in one of his many unsurpassed homilies, would be the awareness of the supreme and unsurpassed joy one was missing out upon as a result of having refused to love and have faith in Christ our Lord, God and Savior, but the nature of such people, is that as Scripture makes clear, their heart has been hardened with a severe delusion, so that tragically, even if given the choice to escape their dire circumstances, they would not be willing to cross the chasm that separates them from the saints, for as CS Lewis wrote with great eloquence, the gates of Hell are locked on the inside.

*St. Chrysostom would be death-marched after criticizing the Empress for having a commode made of solid gold, a foolish extravagance that could have been used to finance innumerable charitable works to help the sick and the suffering and the impoverished, and Theodosius II was not one to permit the lavatory of his wife to be criticized, so it was on account of a plumbing fixture that the greatest preacher known to the Church since the time of the Apostles, whose homiletical skill remains unsurpassed - equalled perhaps, but unsurpassed, even by the likes of Jonathan Edwards or Charles Spurgeon, was marched, ostensibly into exile, until he died of exhaustion.
 
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