Noah-Lots of Water in the Oceans and Subterranean Oceans

[Job 33:6]

Not ignoring what Jude and Peter quote from Enoch, but the book of Enoch still isn't part of God's Word.

Ok. Well, if you aren't ignoring 1 Enoch, then you would comfortably know that Peter and Jude are directly acknowledging the traditional understanding that these two stories are of a direct common origin or original tradition.

Lets consider some other examples.
Genesis 6:5
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

But then right after, in Genesis 6:9:
9 This is the account of Noah and his family.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.

Verse 5 is clearly hyperbole. Or we would end up with a Bible contradiction, much like the one shared earlier. It wasn't actually true that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

The dimensions of Noah's ark. Noahs ark is made of papyrus reeds and dried mud (bitumen).Basic gravity wouldn't even allow for a structure of such size to be made out of grass. Moreover, Atrahasis, the Gilgamesh epic, and Noah's flood, all share roughly the same-sized boat that are also made of the same materials, goper, koper and papyrus. Which also, not coincidentally, are the same materials of the ark of baby Moses if you read the early chapters of exodus.

We have the ark of the epic of Gilgamesh and the Ark of noahs flood landing on the same mountain. Ararat, which, in accordance with the Babylonian map of the world, demonstrates that when Genesis uses the word "world", its speaking of the known world to the authors (the ancient near east), not the known world to us today (planet earth).

The genesis table of the nations, right after the flood, also only mentions locations specific to the ancient near east. Or consider the famine of Egypt, as described in Genesis 41:
56 So when the famine had spread over all the land, Joseph opened all the storehouses[h] and sold to the Egyptians, for the famine was severe in the land of Egypt. 57 Moreover, all the earth came to Egypt to Joseph to buy grain, because the famine was severe over all the earth.

It's not saying that native Americans were getting in boats and traveling across the Atlantic Ocean to buy grain from Joseph.

The Genesis text is written from the worldview of the authors with hyperbolic language, And there are lots and lots of examples of this in Genesis where it is plainly clear.

 

[Job 33:6]

Never mind our modern canon. 1 Enoch was not part of the Old Testament used by the Jews.

Actually, some early church fathers did argue for it in favor of it being canon. But that's besides the point. 1 Enoch, of course, wouldn't be in the old testament because the old testament is older than 1 enoch. But that's not to say that it wasn't clearly in view among the tradition of the Biblical authors. Again, Peter and Jude both quote enoch. Canon or not, it is established as a part of Biblical tradition.

 

[Job 33:6]

Not ignoring what Jude and Peter quote from Enoch, but the book of Enoch still isn't part of God's Word.

Jude quotes Enoch thus:

“Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,” (Jude 1:14 NKJV)

Peter quotes Enoch here:

“For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast [them] down to hell and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;” (2Pe 2:4 NKJV)

But neither Jude nor Peter quote Enoch about the Flood.

Their quotations go much further than that. Peter frequently uses Enoch as an archetype of Jesus. And both Peter and Jude quote several verses.

 

[Job 33:6]

Not ignoring what Jude and Peter quote from Enoch, but the book of Enoch still isn't part of God's Word.

Jude quotes Enoch thus:

“Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,” (Jude 1:14 NKJV)

Peter quotes Enoch here:

“For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast [them] down to hell and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;” (2Pe 2:4 NKJV)

But neither Jude nor Peter quote Enoch about the Flood.

Here are some passages for reference.

Now we know that Jude directly references Enoch. He even named Enoch in the book of Jude.

Jude 1:14-15 LEB
[14] And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied about these people, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with tens of thousands of his holy ones [15] to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they have committed in an ungodly way, and concerning all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

So hopefully everyone agrees so far. It's there. You can see Enoch named point blank.

Now compare Jude to Enoch

1 Enoch 1:9
Behold, he comes with a myriads of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to destroy all the wicked, and to convict all flesh for all the wicked deeds that they have done, and the proud and hard words that wicked sinners spoke against him.

And Peter does the same thing.

And both Peter and Jude identify the Genesis 6 sons of God as angels.

Jude 1:6-7 LEB
[6] And the angels who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling place, he has kept in eternal bonds under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day, [7] as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:4-6 LEB
[4] For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment, [5] and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a proclaimer of righteousness, and seven others when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly, [6] and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly,

And yes, Peter and Jude are talking about the Genesis flood.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

This is Genesis 6 of the flood narrative.

 

[Job 33:6]

But neither Jude nor Peter quote Enoch about the Flood.

1 Enoch is a flood story. So there is no such thing as quoting enoch and having it not be about the flood.

2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

Enoch says the exact same thing. Thats what Enoch is about. 1 Enoch is the story of the Angels that sinned that God put in chains for judgement at the time of the flood. Thats what its all about.

And we know for a fact that Peter and Jude are referencing Enoch, not just because Jude explicitly names Enoch, but because both Peter and Jude verbatim quote 1 enoch, or state word for word the same things that it does. When Peter and Jude are talking about the angels that sinned and were enchained at the time of Noah, they're talking about the same story of 1 Enoch. Thats what 1 Enoch is about. And that is not coincidental.

 

[Job 33:6]

Here are some passages for reference.

Not we know that Jude directly references Enoch. He even named Enoch in the book of Jude.

Jude 1:14-15 LEB
[14] And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied about these people, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with tens of thousands of his holy ones [15] to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they have committed in an ungodly way, and concerning all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

So hopefully everyone agrees so far. It's there. You can see Enoch named point blank.

Now compare Jude to Enoch

1 Enoch 1:9
Behold, he comes with a myriads of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to destroy all the wicked, and to convict all flesh for all the wicked deeds that they have done, and the proud and hard words that wicked sinners spoke against him.

And Peter does the same thing.

And both Peter and Jude identify the Genesis 6 sons of God as angels.

Jude 1:6-7 LEB
[6] And the angels who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling place, he has kept in eternal bonds under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day, [7] as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:4-6 LEB
[4] For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment, [5] and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a proclaimer of righteousness, and seven others when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly, [6] and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly,

And yes, Peter and Jude are talking about the Genesis flood.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

This is Genesis 6 of the flood narrative.

And, the significance of this cannot be understated, because this is the context backgrounding passages about Jesus' descent to hell as well. This is precisely what Enoch did, as identified in 1 Peter 3. Enoch descended to the spirits enchanted (namely, Gilgamesh and other nephelim), proclaimed victory over them. And ascended and was taken up to heaven.

Genesis 5:22-24 ESV
[22] Enoch walked with God after he fathered Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters. [23] Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years. [24] Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.

And Enoch's age is not scientific. That's something related to the number of days in a year.

 

[HarleyER]

I have always used Strong's. Now I look at the Hebrew letters to see what the meaning is of each and ever letter. For me I want to know what everyone everywhere has to say about a scripture. I do not trust the translators as much as you seem to trust them. You clearly do not want to study the resources available to you. That is fine if that is what works for you. The classic case has to do with Adam and Eve covering themselves with a leaf. That is absurd. Even you see art with Adam and Eve and a leaf. I did a little bit of study on clothing and we see clothing has been around long before Adam and Eve. Even they had sowing needles 30 and 40,000 years ago, made out of bone. The made clothing back then the same way they make clothing today, they spin the fiber into thread and weave the thread into material. Of course now we have machinery that does all of that automatically and not by hand as they did back then.

View attachment 355556
Wiki A needle made from bird bone and attributed to archaic humans, the Denisovans, estimated to be around 50,000 years-old, and was found in Denisova Cave. A bone needle, dated to the Aurignacian age (47,000 to 41,000 years ago), was discovered in Potok Cave (Slovene: Potočka zijalka) in the Eastern Karavanke, Slovenia.

You don't trust translators but you trust Wiki! This is where Christianity is today, rejecting the teaching of Scripture while accepting the "science" of Wikipedia.

 

[Diamond72]

You don't trust translators

The issue is in the detail. We know more today than we did yesterday so we are going to have a better understanding of our Bible. There are things I research and study that they never had the time to do. We all present ourselves before God. I do not represent you and you do not represent me. So this is between me and God and no one else.

I do believe the atonement is two fold. Jesus reconciles us with the Father, but also He paid the price to reconcile us with each other. Jesus said it is Finished. But He is still doing his finished work in my life and in your life.

 

[Diamond72]

But neither Jude nor Peter quote Enoch about the Flood.

Peter talks about the flood In the Bible, 2 Peter 2:5 describes how God protected Noah and seven others when he destroyed the world with a flood. The passage says, "And God did not spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others, when he brought the flood on the world of the ungodly". The Greek word Peter used was kósmos.

Order: The word kosmos means "an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution". The ancient Greeks believed that the world was perfectly harmonious and well-ordered. The philosopher Pythagoras used the term kosmos in the 6th century B.C. to describe the order of the universe.

 

[DennisF]

Well, the account of the Flood includes these words:

“19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered. 20 The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered.” (Ge 7:19-20 NKJV)

How could it not cover the whole earth if all the high hills under the whole heaven and the mountains were covered? And what was the point of the ark, if there was dry land that Noah and his family could have escaped to? Then we are told the effects of the Flood:

“21 ¶ And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. 22 All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of the spirit of life, all that [was] on the dry [land], died. 23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who [were] with him in the ark remained [alive].” (Ge 7:21-23 NKJV)

None of that would be true if there were people and animals still living in some supposed non-flooded areas.

Where does Genesis 1 "say they aren't literal 24 hour days"? It says over and over that each of the days had a morning and an evening.

It took me a while, but I have learned that superlatives such as "all" and "every" in English have a different logical meaning than in Hebrew. In English they carry with them the meaning of "without exception" whereas in Hebrew, they mean "the preponderance of".

Also, in Hebrew, the word translated "earth" (eretz) is also equally translatable as "land" and probably should be in many cases because to us moderns, "earth" means the planet, not the land of the surrounding region.

Worse yet are what I call infinity-words such as "forever" and "ever" and "eternity". These words appear in English in part because of the medieval influence of classics scholars imbued with such concepts by reading Greek philosophy. Yet this kind of language does not appear in Hebrew; it is more finite and concrete, and focused on observable evidence, not intellectual abstractions.

What was the scope of the Noahic flood? Who knows? It is a point of active argumentation, yet I have yet to find anyone ask what the scope of Genesis 1:1 is; how extensive are the skies and land (shamayim and eretz) created by the elohim?

 

[Diamond72]

rejecting the teaching of Scripture while accepting the "science" of Wikipedia.

You trust the traditions of man that Jesus tells you NOT to trust. Matthew 23 27 "“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones ". I would rather trust fact based Science with evidence than hypocrites.

 

[Diamond72]

Worse yet are what I call infinity-words such as "forever" and "ever" and "eternity".

That is very deceptive. Far to often they mean until the end of the age or the end of the ages. It is ONLY 1,000 years from now when there will be a new heaven and a new earth and the old shall pass away. Even our church age is coming to an end right now. This is the age of Grace. Only those that are without spot, blemish or wrinkle will be accepted. There is talk about the wolf and the lamb will lay together and the Lion will eat grass like a cow. Nothing will harm or hurt in the world that is coming.

 

[HarleyER]

You trust the traditions of man that Jesus tells you NOT to trust. Matthew 23 27 "“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones ". I would rather trust fact based Science with evidence than hypocrites.

Listen, you don't believe in a six day creation (OK), that God clothed Adam and Eve, in ex nihilo, in a world wide flood, in ax heads floating, in anything except what Moses and Jesus stated except where it contradicts what you believe.

And then you tell me I trust in the traditions of men. I guess you're right.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

 

[Diamond72]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

You have failed to show that anything I say contradicts Paul. Yet 2Peter3:16 tells us: "He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Paul likes to quote David a lot. David talks about being good under the law but right though faith. When Paul says: "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" (Romans 3:10) he is quoting David. People claim that Paul says we do not have to follow the law and that is not true.

 

[HarleyER]

You have failed to show that anything I say contradicts Paul.

1 Timothy 2:13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.

Do you believe Adam and Eve were created?

 

[The Barbarian]

Do you believe Adam and Eve were created?

My observation is that all of us are created. Some people just don't approve of the way He does it.

 

[Diamond72]

Do you believe Adam and Eve were created?

Of course they were created. In this regard I believe in Theistic Evolution because of the DNA evidence. If we look at Y-chromosomal Aaron or the Cohan gene, this seems to support the Bible in regard to Noah's brother.

The original scientific research was based on the hypothesis that a majority of present-day Jewish Kohanim share a pattern of values for six Y-STR markers, which researchers named the extended Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH).[5] Subsequent research using twelve Y-STR markers indicated that nearly half of contemporary Jewish Kohanim shared Y-chromosomal J1 M267 (specifically haplogroup J-P58, also called J1c3), while other Kohanim share a different ancestry, such as haplogroup J2a (J-M410).[6] The latest studies using single nucleotide polymorphic markers have further narrowed the results down to a single sub-branch known as J1-B877 (also known as J1-Z18271).[3][4]

Jesus said Matthew 19 4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’

Science tells us that Recombination probably evolved ~ 3 billion years ago as a mechanism of DNA repair; sex evolved ~ 1-2 billion years ago in the early eukaryotes; the reason is unclear but it its likely that it is maintained in the current day by selection.

We know the reason because marriage is a type of Christ and His bride. I was very interested to do a study on WHY God made Adam and Eve male and female. If we look at pond scum or algee we see how male and female first evolved the way the Bible says where the female comes from the side of the male. The single celled organism split into two that we now call male and female or with Humans man and women.

I did the research into theistic evolution in this regard because I wanted to know. I do not think anyone else is interested in doing a study on how Science confirms that the Bible is true in this regard.

 

[Diamond72]

Some people just don't approve of the way He does it.

I have studied DNA from the beginning 50 years ago in 1968 when I read the book The Double Helix. Today holotypes are complicated and not many people take the time and trouble to understand why or how God made them male and female. Also we look back and the Bible is written from the beginning forward because God declares the end from the beginning and he watches over His word to perform what He declares He is going to do. We can be sure that He is going to accomplish His plan and purpose.

Isaiah 46:10 Jeremiah 1:12​

 

[David Lamb]

Ok. Well, if you aren't ignoring 1 Enoch, then you would comfortably know that Peter and Jude are directly acknowledging the traditional understanding that these two stories are of a direct common origin or original tradition.

Lets consider some other examples.
Genesis 6:5
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

But then right after, in Genesis 6:9:
9 This is the account of Noah and his family.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.

Verse 5 is clearly hyperbole. Or we would end up with a Bible contradiction, much like the one shared earlier. It wasn't actually true that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

The dimensions of Noah's ark. Noahs ark is made of papyrus reeds and dried mud (bitumen).Basic gravity wouldn't even allow for a structure of such size to be made out of grass. Moreover, Atrahasis, the Gilgamesh epic, and Noah's flood, all share roughly the same-sized boat that are also made of the same materials, goper, koper and papyrus. Which also, not coincidentally, are the same materials of the ark of baby Moses if you read the early chapters of exodus.

We have the ark of the epic of Gilgamesh and the Ark of noahs flood landing on the same mountain. Ararat, which, in accordance with the Babylonian map of the world, demonstrates that when Genesis uses the word "world", its speaking of the known world to the authors (the ancient near east), not the known world to us today (planet earth).

The genesis table of the nations, right after the flood, also only mentions locations specific to the ancient near east. Or consider the famine of Egypt, as described in Genesis 41:
56 So when the famine had spread over all the land, Joseph opened all the storehouses[h] and sold to the Egyptians, for the famine was severe in the land of Egypt. 57 Moreover, all the earth came to Egypt to Joseph to buy grain, because the famine was severe over all the earth.

It's not saying that native Americans were getting in boats and traveling across the Atlantic Ocean to buy grain from Joseph.

The Genesis text is written from the worldview of the authors with hyperbolic language, And there are lots and lots of examples of this in Genesis where it is plainly clear.

You say that Genesis 6:5 is "clearly hyperbole", and it would be if it were taken out of context. That context includes Genesis 6:8:

“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.” (Ge 6:8 NKJV)

Without the grace of God, Noah would have been just like the rest of humanity at the time.

Then you say, "Noah's ark is made of papyrus reeds and dried mud (bitumen).Basic gravity wouldn't even allow for a structure of such size to be made out of grass." Of course if the ark were made out of grass and mud, it would be no protection against even a local flood. But God's instructions to Noah began:

“"Make yourself an ark of gopherwood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and outside with pitch.” (Ge 6:14 NKJV)

One bible dictionary says concerning gopherwood:

1) cypress?, gopher, gopher wood
1a) wood of which the ark was made
1b) meaning and exact type unknown

Smith's Revised Bible Dictionary has a longer entry:

"Only once in. [{Ge 6:14 }] The Hebrew עצי גפר, trees of Gopher, does not occur in the cognate dialects. The A. V. has made no attempt at translation: the LXX (ξυλατετραγωνα) and Vulgate [(ligna laevigata]) elicited by metathesis of ר and ף ( גפר = גרף), the former having reference to square blocks, cut by the axe, the latter to planks smoothed by the plane, have not found much favour with modern commentators.

The conjectures of [cedar] (Aben Ezra, Onk Jonath. and Rabbins generally), [wood most proper to float] (Kimchi), the Greek κεδρελατη (Jun Tremell.; Buxt.), [pine] (Avenar.; Munst.), [turpentine] (Castalio), are little better than gratuitous. The rendering [cedar] has been defended by Pelletier, who refers to the great abundance of this tree in Asia, and the durability of its timber."

I have looked in other bible dictionaries too, but have not found a single mention of the idea that the ark was made of reeds.

 

[HarleyER]

My observation is that all of us are created. Some people just don't approve of the way He does it.

1 Timothy 2:13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.

Based on Paul's statement, it is rather hard to make a case that Adam evolved and then 100 million years later the primorial soup cough up Eve.