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You Can Support Israel and not be a Dispensationalist.

HarleyER

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It annoys me to no end the misconceptions there are about supporting Israel.

I believe supporting Israel is what the Bible says. There are countless verses that talk about this.

I consider myself a Historic Pre-Millenialist. I do not believe there are seven dispensations. However, the Bible is clear that God loves the Jewish people. And the Church did not just replace Israel. It says in the Bible that God would regather Israel. That is why when Israel was recognized as its own nation it was such a big deal. It was literally prophecy coming true before our eyes.

I had a person recently tell me that I could not think that the Jews are God's chosen people and not be a dispensationalist. The problem with this view is that throughout the Church, many people have held this view before Dispensationalism was ever brought up. Even people like Christostom who said some of the most anti-semitic things in Church history believe there remained a plan for God to save all of Israel. It is only this new Covenant theology that tries to cut Israel out from His plans.

Eschatology seems to bring out the craziness in Christians.

I'm an amillennialist myself but I still believe that God is using the nation of Israel for His divine purposes. That seems to be evident in the fact that the nation Israel is back again and the hatred the world seems to have for it.

I wouldn't say that God loves the Jewish people any more than He loves anyone else. He only set His love on them simply because it is His desire to do so. (Deut 7:7-10)

Covenant theology is not new. It was the driving theology although, admittedly there were some early church fathers that were dispensationalits. Dispensationalism wasn't much of a thought throughout church history until Darby came up with the idea in the 1800s and it was published in the Scofield Bible. Christians did not replace the Jews. Christians (all believers) are Abraham's children, adopted into his family.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The modern state of Israel =/= Biblical Israel.

The Bible has literally nothing to say about the current modern nation state that takes its name from the ancient Jewish nation in the Levant. That particular political polity ceased to exist thousands of years ago, and still doesn't exist today. And if one is a Christian, then one should also know that the reason for which that political polity existed was for the purpose of the promised coming of Christ. In whom both Jew and Gentile, together, are united together as a new man.

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." - Ephesians 2:11-22

It is the will of God to save all, that none should perish. Even as Gentiles, formerly pagans and hostage to false gods, have now been made united to the commonwealth of Israel through faith in the Messiah, as wild olive branches grafted onto the tree; having been shown mercy even in the midst of disobedience to God by Israel for unbelief. So, also, shall God call those branches which were pruned away to repentance. So that all having been consigned to disobedience, all should receive mercy. For Jew and Gentile; without distinction. Not all of national Israel departed from faith, many received Christ; and not all Gentiles receive Him either--both Jew and Gentile are sinners, all are condemned under the Law, all are disobedient; all are called to repentance, all must hear the word, believe, and come to faith, and be washed in the waters of Baptism.

God did not choose the Jews because He rejected the Gentiles; neither has mercy shown to the Gentiles mean a rejection of the Jews. For the will and love of God is shown impartially to all. But all men are sinful, and all are condemned because of sin, and all need to be reconciled to God through the work, person, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. For this Gospel is for both Jew and Gentile, it is the very power of God to save all who believe. And in Christ, all shall be united in Christ, under God, and partakers of the promises made long ago: For the serpent's head is crushed, the curse of death defeated, and resurrection and the renewal of all things shall be accomplished.

Two errors we must reject: We must reject that error which would demonize the Jewish people are regard them as cursed by God, or as though God has turned His back on unbelieving Jewish persons. God turns His back on none; but wills mercy for all. This has sown hatred and prejudice through many generations, and the fruit has been violence, bloodshed, paranoia, and perpetual suffering--the most grievous of this manifested in the last century when six million souls were sacrificed by the Nazis to their false god of racial superiority.

The other error we must reject is that which would say that Christ is unimportant, and that the Church is only a side project. As though the real story of God is Israel, the Church is something entirely other; and is somehow a "Gentile" institution, whereas only the Jews are Israel (believing or unbelieving). And that the real substance of God's promises only apply to the Jewish people (believing or unbelieving) as though faith in Christ is insignificant, as though the Passion of our Lord were insignificant, as though there were no New Covenant which has rendered the Old bygone. This is the sin and error of the Dispensationalists, and all who turn away from the Scriptures toward unbiblical views about the modern nation state of "Israel". Thinking that the current Zionist state is anything more than a human institution crafted by human activity--like any and all other modern nation states. This becomes especially problematic when it involves rejecting biblical teachings on how to regard our fellow human beings when we justify evil committed by a government simply because of its national branding. Political propaganda is not Christian doctrine. Dispensationalism is false doctrine; but so is any doctrine that would deny Christ, deny or revel in the suffering of others. If Christ is Lord, and He is, then people matter--all people. Whether they are called Israeli or Palestinian. Whether they are Jew, Christian, or Muslim.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Clare73

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Hey, I appreciate this, but I would encourage you to watch the video I linked. That shows clearly that God does still have promises for Israel.
All the promises to Israel have been fulfilled--the land promise, both full possession (Josh 23:14, 21:43) and full occupation (1 Kgs 4:21, 24-25), as well as the return, during Ezra and Nehemiah, where the wall was rebuilt, the temple was rebuilt and the people rededicated themselves to God with much rejoicing--with only one conditional promise now remaining, that of Ro 11:23.
 
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There are many wonderful promises in the Scripture about Israel that are yet to be fulfilled.
It is true that God has divorced His wife Israel, however He will take her back. Hosea 2 16 “And in that day, declares the Lord, you will call me ‘My Husband,’ and no longer will you call me ‘My Baal.’ 17 For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be remembered by name no more. 18 And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish[f] the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety. 19 And I will betroth you to me forever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy.
Jeremiah 31 31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
I don't know how Christians can claim that Church has replaced Israel. It's not Biblical, and it sounds very prideful. I hate this false doctorine.
The church has not replaced Israel.

The people of God, believers in Christ both Gentile and Jew, are the one olive tree of Ro 11:17.
Unbelieving Israel has been cut off that one tree of God's people, with their destiny being to be grafted back into that one olive tree. . .
IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).
 
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The modern state of Israel =/= Biblical Israel.

The Bible has literally nothing to say about the current modern nation state that takes its name from the ancient Jewish nation in the Levant. That particular political polity ceased to exist thousands of years ago, and still doesn't exist today. And if one is a Christian, then one should also know that the reason for which that political polity existed was for the purpose of the promised coming of Christ. In whom both Jew and Gentile, together, are united together as a new man.

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." - Ephesians 2:11-22

It is the will of God to save all, that none should perish. Even as Gentiles, formerly pagans and hostage to false gods, have now been made united to the commonwealth of Israel through faith in the Messiah, as wild olive branches grafted onto the tree; having been shown mercy even in the midst of disobedience to God by Israel for unbelief. So, also, shall God call those branches which were pruned away to repentance. So that all having been consigned to disobedience, all should receive mercy. For Jew and Gentile; without distinction. Not all of national Israel departed from faith, many received Christ; and not all Gentiles receive Him either--both Jew and Gentile are sinners, all are condemned under the Law, all are disobedient; all are called to repentance, all must hear the word, believe, and come to faith, and be washed in the waters of Baptism.

God did not choose the Jews because He rejected the Gentiles; neither has mercy shown to the Gentiles mean a rejection of the Jews. For the will and love of God is shown impartially to all. But all men are sinful, and all are condemned because of sin, and all need to be reconciled to God through the work, person, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. For this Gospel is for both Jew and Gentile, it is the very power of God to save all who believe. And in Christ, all shall be united in Christ, under God, and partakers of the promises made long ago: For the serpent's head is crushed, the curse of death defeated, and resurrection and the renewal of all things shall be accomplished.

Two errors we must reject: We must reject that error which would demonize the Jewish people are regard them as cursed by God, or as though God has turned His back on unbelieving Jewish persons. God turns His back on none; but wills mercy for all. This has sown hatred and prejudice through many generations, and the fruit has been violence, bloodshed, paranoia, and perpetual suffering--the most grievous of this manifested in the last century when six million souls were sacrificed by the Nazis to their false god of racial superiority.

The other error we must reject is that which would say that Christ is unimportant, and that the Church is only a side project. As though the real story of God is Israel, the Church is something entirely other; and is somehow a "Gentile" institution, whereas only the Jews are Israel (believing or unbelieving). And that the real substance of God's promises only apply to the Jewish people (believing or unbelieving) as though faith in Christ is insignificant, as though the Passion of our Lord were insignificant, as though there were no New Covenant which has rendered the Old bygone. This is the sin and error of the Dispensationalists, and all who turn away from the Scriptures toward unbiblical views about the modern nation state of "Israel". Thinking that the current Zionist state is anything more than a human institution crafted by human activity--like any and all other modern nation states. This becomes especially problematic when it involves rejecting biblical teachings on how to regard our fellow human beings when we justify evil committed by a government simply because of its national branding. Political propaganda is not Christian doctrine. Dispensationalism is false doctrine; but so is any doctrine that would deny Christ, deny or revel in the suffering of others. If Christ is Lord, and He is, then people matter--all people. Whether they are called Israeli or Palestinian. Whether they are Jew, Christian, or Muslim.

-CryptoLutheran

Who regathered the Israelites to their homeland? Was it done by God or by man? The Bible says that there would be a regathering of Israel after God scattered them. So the gathering of Israel into the holy land is a fulfillment of prophecy. The Bible says if God scatters, no one can gather and if God gathers no one can scatter. Further, we KNOW that Christ is returning to Jerusalem at the east gate to have the Jews receive Him as Messiah.

All the promises to Israel have been fulfilled--the land promise, both full possession (Josh 23:14, 21:43) and full occupation (1 Kgs 4:21, 24-25), as well as the return, during Ezra and Nehemiah, where the wall was rebuilt, the temple was rebuilt and the people rededicated themselves to God with much rejoicing--with only one conditional promise now remaining, that of Ro 11:23.

The Bible clearly says that the promises ARE to the Israelites. Not past tense. Present tense.
 
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Clare73

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Who regathered the Israelites to their homeland? Was it done by God or by man? The Bible says that there would be a regathering of Israel after God scattered them.
Which was fulfilled in the return from exile under Ezra and Nehemiah.
So the gathering of Israel into the holy land is a fulfillment of prophecy. The Bible says if God scatters, no one can gather and if God gathers no one can scatter. Further, we KNOW that Christ is returning to Jerusalem at the east gate to have the Jews receive Him as Messiah.



The Bible clearly says that the promises ARE to the Israelites. Not past tense. Present tense.
They were at the time made, but are now fulfilled.
 
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Which was fulfilled in the return from exile under Ezra and Nehemiah.

Not necessarily. And you did not answer the question. Who gathered the Israelites into the holy land? Was it God or man?

They were at the time made, but are now fulfilled.

I was not quoting the OT. I was quoting the NT.
 
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Clare73

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Which goes on to state that not all Israel is Israel, that there is a separation, that of unbelieving and believing Israel, just as there was a separation among the descendants of Abraham between Isaac and Ishmael, and between the descendants of Isaac between Jacob and Esau, and the promises were not made to all Abraham's and Isaac's descendants.
Israel, where Jesus is returning to the Jews where they will receive Him as Messiah. Where is Jesus returning? And to whom?
I do not take my doctrine from prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation.
I take my doctrine from apostolic teaching only.

The promise of return to the land was fulfilled in a remnant under Ezra and Nehemiah,
just as the gifts and irrevocable call (Ro 11:29) are being fulfilled now in a remnant (Ro 11:5).

There is no other promise of Jews returning to the land remaining.
 
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Which goes on to state that not all Israel is Israel, that there is a separation, that of unbelieving and believing Israel, just as there was a separation among the descendants of Abraham between Isaac and Ishmael, and between the descendants of Isaac between Jacob and Esau, and the promises were not made to all Abraham's and Isaac's descendants

True. There has always been a remnant of the people of Israel, just like today. There have always been promises for the Israeli people, just like today. Literally nothing has changed for Israel except their Messiah has come.

The promise of return to the land was fulfilled under Ezra and Nehemiah.

There is no other promise of returning to the land remaining.

Answer my question, Clare.
 
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Clare73

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True. There has always been a remnant of the people of Israel, just like today. There have always been promises for the Israeli people, just like today. Literally nothing has changed for Israel except their Messiah has come.
Your understanding of NT doctrine limps a little.
Answer my question, Clare.
This question: Where is Jesus returning? And to whom?

The teaching of Jesus and the apostle is

at the end of time Jesus is returning in the sky (Mt 24:30)
at the resurrection (1 Th 4:16), where
the angels will gather the snatched-up elect (1 Th 4:17) from the four winds (Mt 24:31)
to accompany Jesus back to earth (parousia) and assist him in the Judgment (1 Co 6:3).
 
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Your understanding of NT doctrine limps a little.

In other words, you have no argument.

This question: Where is Jesus returning? And to whom?

The teaching of Jesus and the apostle is

At the end of time,
in the sky (Mt 24:30)
at the resurrection (1 Th 4:16), where
the angels will gather the snatched-up elect (1 Th 4:17) from the four winds (Mt 24:31)
to accompany Jesus back to earth (parousia) and assist him in the Judgment (1 Co 6:3).

Where on earth? There is an answer to this question, Clair.

 
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Clare73

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In other words, you have no argument.
Don't want to exegete half the NT to present it. . .
Where on earth? There is an answer to this question, Clair.
Jesus and the apostle do not teach such, and I don't take my doctrine from prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) which are subject to more than one interpretation.
 
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Jesus and the apostle do not teach such, and I don't take my doctrine from prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) which are subject to more than one interpretation.

Read the article.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Who regathered the Israelites to their homeland? Was it done by God or by man? The Bible says that there would be a regathering of Israel after God scattered them. So the gathering of Israel into the holy land is a fulfillment of prophecy. The Bible says if God scatters, no one can gather and if God gathers no one can scatter. Further, we KNOW that Christ is returning to Jerusalem at the east gate to have the Jews receive Him as Messiah.

Who regathered them after they were sent into Exile to Babylon? Yes God did that.

The modern state of Israel has no biblical significance.

Jesus is not returning to have Jews receive Him as Messiah. Jesus is returning as Judge of the living and the dead.

The Bible clearly says that the promises ARE to the Israelites. Not past tense. Present tense.

Who are the children of promise?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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