Women should remain silent in the churches.

[RDKirk]

You note that 1 Tim 2:12 starts with the words "let the women learn".

No it doesn't.

 

[Strong in Him]

No it doesn't.

My mistake it's verse 11.
It's still part of the same passage and we should read verses in context and not as isolated verses.

 

[RDKirk]

My mistake it's verse 11.
It's still part of the same passage and we should read verses in context and not as isolated verses.

That also doesn't apply to what I said, that Paul prohibited co-ed discipleship.

You clearly didn't read my original post.

These older women must train the younger women to love their husbands and their children, to live wisely and be pure, to work in their homes, to do good, and to be submissive to their husbands. -- Titus 2

Also:

If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. -- 1 Corinthians 14

These are two different instructions addressed to two different groups of women. In the first case, Paul is instructing Titus that younger women (unmarried) should be discipled under older women. In the second case, Paul is instructing the Corinthians that married women should be taught by their husbands.

Remember that the master/disciple relationship in Paul's day was a highly authoritative live-in relationship.

 

[Strong in Him]

In the second case, Paul is instructing the Corinthians that married women should be taught by their husbands.

No, in the second case, Paul is saying that women should wait until they get home to ask questions - rather than speaking in the service.
Women who had not been allowed to learn may have been full of questions when they heard Scripture passages read "what does that mean?" "why did he say that?" "I thought he said ....... earlier".
Paul is talking to the Corinthians about order in the church. Read the whole chapter; everything being done with order, decency and respect. The place to ask questions is at home - though single women would have had no husband to ask - rather than interrupting the speaker and undermining their authority.

 

[RDKirk]

No, in the second case, Paul is saying that women should wait until they get home to ask questions - rather than speaking in the service.
Women who had not been allowed to learn may have been full of questions when they heard Scripture passages read "what does that mean?" "why did he say that?" "I thought he said ....... earlier".

That's what some people think without giving regard to all Paul said about the matter.

Paul is talking to the Corinthians about order in the church. Read the whole chapter; everything being done with order, decency and respect. The place to ask questions is at home - though single women would have had no husband to ask - rather than interrupting the speaker and undermining their authority.

Single women would have their older women teachers to ask...which Paul directed.

 

[Strong in Him]

That's what some people think without giving regard to all Paul said about the matter.

If you look at ALL Paul said about the matter:
he did not say that the gifts of teaching and evangelism were only for men, 1 Cor 12.
he taught women how to prophesy in church - with their heads covered, 1 Cor 11.
he did not say, in chapter 14 that women could not speak in tongues or prophesy; both of which involve speaking.
he knew that Priscilla taught/helped to teach Apollos, Acts 18
he had female co-workers, Romans 16.
he entrusted his letter to the Romans to Phoebe - who would have read the letter to the church and explained it.

So to suddenly say "women must be silent in church", would have been inconsistent.

Single women would have their older women teachers to ask...which Paul directed.

Yet he doesn't say that here; that was a different letter, to a different person, on a different subject.

Paul is writing about order in church, says that women should be silent and that if they want to ask about something, they should ask at home. It seems fairly obvious that he said the latter words because he had heard/was aware that women were disrupting the service by calling out their questions. Or grabbing the nearest man and asking him to explain. Remember he has been speaking about order - not more than one person speaking in tongues at a time and if someone seated has a word from God while someone else is prophesying, the speaker should stop. That is what that bit of the passage is about - one person speaking at a time; order in everything.
In fact most of the letter seems to be about being orderly. He criticised them for following different leaders, for dragging a person to court instead of resolving things amicably and some for going ahead and eating and drinking at the Lord's supper without waiting for others to arrive, so not everyone got a fair share. He rebuked those who believed that "outward" gifts - tongues and prophecy - were more important than other gifts and said that everything should be done in love.

 

[RDKirk]

If you look at ALL Paul said about the matter:
he did not say that the gifts of teaching and evangelism were only for men, 1 Cor 12.
he taught women how to prophesy in church - with their heads covered, 1 Cor 11.
he did not say, in chapter 14 that women could not speak in tongues or prophesy; both of which involve speaking.
he knew that Priscilla taught/helped to teach Apollos, Acts 18
he had female co-workers, Romans 16.
he entrusted his letter to the Romans to Phoebe - who would have read the letter to the church and explained it.

So to suddenly say "women must be silent in church", would have been inconsistent.

Yet he doesn't say that here; that was a different letter, to a different person, on a different subject.

Paul is writing about order in church, says that women should be silent and that if they want to ask about something, they should ask at home. It seems fairly obvious that he said the latter words because he had heard/was aware that women were disrupting the service by calling out their questions. Or grabbing the nearest man and asking him to explain. Remember he has been speaking about order - not more than one person speaking in tongues at a time and if someone seated has a word from God while someone else is prophesying, the speaker should stop. That is what that bit of the passage is about - one person speaking at a time; order in everything.
In fact most of the letter seems to be about being orderly. He criticised them for following different leaders, for dragging a person to court instead of resolving things amicably and some for going ahead and eating and drinking at the Lord's supper without waiting for others to arrive, so not everyone got a fair share. He rebuked those who believed that "outward" gifts - tongues and prophecy - were more important than other gifts and said that everything should be done in love.

You appear to be arguing with someone else. Clearly you never read my original post.

 

[Strong in Him]

You appear to be arguing with someone else. Clearly you never read my original post.

I was referring to your post #59 and saying that we need to read the context of 1 Corinthians 14 - which is what the OP was about - and not just focus on one verse.

I had glanced at your earlier posts.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

1 Corinthians 14:35-38

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?
If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command.
But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.


in the mind of man there is a place where he is not bound to the law and at this place he will commit adultery.
how can woman teach or preach when they do not know such a place exist. therefore woman cannot save man from sin
because woman do not know the mind of man.


Hosea 4:14
“I will not punish your daughters
when they turn to prostitution,
nor your daughters-in-law
when they commit adultery,
because the men themselves consort with harlots
and sacrifice with shrine prostitutes—
a people without understanding will come to ruin!

How can woman teach or preach when God will not punish woman?

Women should be silent in "churches" .. therefore meet in places other than churches.

 

[Valletta]

The Levite priesthood is no more. God created man and women in his image, they are equal in rights. Men have to stop degrading women.

While it is true the priesthood today is of the order of Melchiz′edek, none of the Apostles were female, and thus females are still not allowed to be priests:

Hebrews 7:11-5 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levit′ical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchiz′edek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchiz′edek, 16 who has become a priest, not according to a legal requirement concerning bodily descent but by the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is witnessed of him,

“Thou art a priest for ever,
after the order of Melchiz′edek.” Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

 

[Strong in Him]

While it is true the priesthood today is of the order of Melchiz′edek, none of the Apostles were female, and thus females are still not allowed to be priests:

None of the Apostles were Gentiles - so maybe non-Jews shouldn't become priests either.

 

[lismore]

Deborah: Deborah was a prophetess and a judge of Israel (Judges 4-5). She played a crucial leadership role in Israel, leading the nation in a time of crisis. Her role as a judge suggests a position of authority and respect.

Hello JesusFollower. Good to meet you.

Perhaps an aside- in Hebrews 11 many Old Testament believers are commended for their faith, women and men. Barak is commended, Deborah is not. God Bless You

 

[Valletta]

None of the Apostles were Gentiles - so maybe non-Jews shouldn't become priests either.

It also was that way for Levites, which foreshadowed the new priesthood of Melchiz′edek.

 

[David Lamb]

None of the Apostles were Gentiles - so maybe non-Jews shouldn't become priests either.

Yes they should. All Christians are part of a holy priesthood:

“4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him [be] glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.” (Re 1:4-6 NKJV)

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes they should. All Christians are part of a holy priesthood:

I know we are.
My point was that if women should be excluded from the priesthood (ordination) because Jesus didn't have female Apostles, then Gentiles should be excluded from the priesthood because all of the 12 disciples were Jews.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes they should. All Christians are part of a holy priesthood:

“4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him [be] glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.” (Re 1:4-6 NKJV)

That is quite a separate thing.

Unfortunately, English uses "priest" for two quite different Scriptural concepts. One is priesthood in the sense of those that offer sacrifices; (the underlying Greek being hiereus). That is the word used in the passage you've quoted from Revelation, and applies to the whole Church.

The other is priesthood in the sense of the elders in the church (the underlying Greek being presbyteros). That is what we are speaking of when we talk about priests/pastors/clergy, and where the debate about women tends to focus.

 

[jonojim1337]

sorry I missed this can you explain how the apostles offered the daily sacrifice this is new to me. could you explain.

thank you.

Breaking of the bread.

 

[David Lamb]

Breaking of the bread.

But that wasn't/isn't a sacrifice. Jesus Himself offered the one perfect and complete sacrifice on the cross:

“11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,” (Heb 10:11-12 NKJV)

 

[jonojim1337]

But that wasn't/isn't a sacrifice. Jesus Himself offered the one perfect and complete sacrifice on the cross:

“11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,” (Heb 10:11-12 NKJV)

Read that again.

Clarification; if you think that the animals can be counted as "sacrifice", then surely the bread.

 

[David Lamb]

Read that again.

Clarification; if you think that the animals can be counted as "sacrifice", then surely the bread.

It's not what I think, but what the bible teaches, although it does make clear that the animal sacrifice didn't actually take away sins, but were "types" or shadows pointing to Jesus Christ, the one true Sacrifice. Also, the verse I quoted says that in sacrifice Himself at Calvary, Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins forever. This is in the context of the previous verse having been talking about priests offering repeated sacrifices every day.