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Women should remain silent in the churches.

BelieveItOarKnot

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???

He did not receive his anointing from Peter. But he did receive an anointing. Even twice.
I really don't know why you'd hook Paul's mission to anyone but Jesus quite frankly. Did others have a role? Yes, both good and bad. Which is typical.

As to this particular subject matter we can pretty much cut to the chase with a very simple question set:

IS the "Church" the BRIDE of Christ?

And, seeing that, is A BRIDE a WOMAN?

And of course we have to be speaking in the spiritual senses of the terms

IF you say yes to both, which I might think would be fairly easy, then the question of who should keep silent, who should speak and how, changes dramatically
 
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jonojim1337

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I really don't know why you'd hook Paul's mission to anyone but Jesus quite frankly. Did others have a role? Yes, both good and bad. Which is typical.

I'm just saying, that if you want to find someone who was freewheeling outside the authority handed down to the Apostles, you'd have to find some other example than Paul, as he received his anointing by the laying of hands.

As to this particular subject matter we can pretty much cut to the chase with a very simple question set:

IS the "Church" the BRIDE of Christ?

And, seeing that, is A BRIDE a WOMAN?

And of course we have to be speaking in the spiritual senses of the terms

IF you say yes to both, which I might think would be fairly easy, then the question of who should keep silent, who should speak and how, changes dramatically

Well that would be like saying because there is "neither male nor female in Christ", then we don't have any gender roles either. But I don't think that's what is meant by that.

I'd liken the Bride of Christ as a woman who is carrying the Code of the Church.

As you may recall, Paul excommunicated some people. Were they free to go and build their own church, with whatever code they like? Of course. Are they part of Paul's church? Of course not.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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I'm just saying, that if you want to find someone who was freewheeling outside the authority handed down to the Apostles, you'd have to find some other example than Paul, as he received his anointing by the laying of hands.
And Jesus didn't have a thing to do with any of that? Funny
I'd liken
Yes, well, that's exactly the point being made. Spiritual terms have zero to do with what they might appear to be on the surface
 
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jonojim1337

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And Jesus didn't have a thing to do with any of that? Funny

10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”

“Yes, Lord,” he answered.

11 The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”
 
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Francis 1928

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So in the Orthodox Church, you have the Apostolic Succession, plus women are never allowed to preach :tearsofjoy:
We Catholics dont allow this either and also have Apostolic succession. Wich we and orthodox dont agree on .Years ago I was debating a fellow from the orthodox church. I told him we have apostolic succession and showed the line of apostolic succession. He came back at me with their line . Very interesting.We broke in the great schism Thousand years ago. Anyway , paul himself said women should not have authority over a man in church .
 
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RDKirk

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You're missing the context. IN the Churches. They can say whatever they want outside.

The Old Testament correlation is the Levite priesthood.
You run into a problem with that thought, though. In Paul's day, "church" referred to the congregation, not to specific buildings of worship. So, you're saying that women were not allowed to speak any time two or more believers were gathered together.

And what do you mean by "speak?" Preaching? Teaching? Prophesying? Praying? Shushing a child? Or perhaps very specifically what Paul mentioned: Asking questions?

If it's specifically what Paul mentioned, then what did "asking questions" entail in his mind?
 
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jonojim1337

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You run into a problem with that thought, though. In Paul's day, "church" referred to the congregation, not to specific buildings of worship. So, you're saying that women were not allowed to speak any time two or more believers were gathered together.

And what do you mean by "speak?" Preaching? Teaching? Prophesying? Praying? Shushing a child? Or perhaps very specifically what Paul mentioned: Asking questions?

If it's specifically what Paul mentioned, then what did "asking questions" entail in his mind?

Yes that is the question what does he mean by "preaching" and what does he mean by "church". But in any case, in the Apostolic communities, the tradition is such, that women do not serve the Word in it's verbal or physical form.

That being said I remember when I was at a non-denominational and there was a female speaker. I was new to the faith and in that moment I wasn't actually Christian. I had gone there just to argue, because I figured the Bible is actually stupid and contradicting. But it was either when she started praying or when she started to tell of the wounds of Christ, that I was filled with a living energy in my chest. I did not accept it at first, but this was pivotal to my conversion. This hasn't happened at any other time.

Technically, this non-denomination was not part of the Church or the churches. It is outside the "universal" Church. She was teaching, and preaching, but the perimiter was actually outside of the Church, strictly speaking, if we interpret it, as the Apostolic tradition does.
 
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jonojim1337

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We Catholics dont allow this either and also have Apostolic succession. Wich we and orthodox dont agree on .Years ago I was debating a fellow from the orthodox church. I told him we have apostolic succession and showed the line of apostolic succession. He came back at me with their line . Very interesting.We broke in the great schism Thousand years ago. Anyway , paul himself said women should not have authority over a man in church .

The problem is that history has been tampered with. Did you count the actual years for the Schizm? Was it the same in both lines?

It's still bothersome that we have the same calendar in both churches. Facts do not support the current timeline.

I recommend everyone to watch Anatoly Femenkovs New Chronology. Perhaps not everything is 100% correct, but some facts will be hard to deny.

 
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RDKirk

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Yes that is the question what does he mean by "preaching" and what does he mean by "church". But in any case, in the Apostolic communities, the tradition is such, that women do not serve the Word in it's verbal or physical form.

That being said I remember when I was at a non-denominational and there was a female speaker. I was new to the faith and in that moment I wasn't actually Christian. I had gone there just to argue, because I figured the Bible is actually stupid and contradicting. But it was either when she started praying or when she started to tell of the wounds of Christ, that I was filled with a living energy in my chest. I did not accept it at first, but this was pivotal to my conversion. This hasn't happened at any other time.

Technically, this non-denomination was not part of the Church or the churches. It is outside the "universal" Church. She was teaching, and preaching, but the perimiter was actually outside of the Church, strictly speaking, if we interpret it, as the Apostolic tradition does.
In Paul's day, a "teacher" was someone like his own teacher, Gamaliel, or Jesus. A teacher had disciples. The teacher created doctrine which his disciples learned and followed abjectly. The disciple also lived with his teacher and served his teacher's needs. In the Gospels, we can see the authority the teacher had over his disciples, such as when Jesus commanded His disciples to go into town and bring back food, while Jesus Himself sat down at a well to talk to a strange Samaritan woman. Or when Jesus commanded His disciples to go into town to get a donkey and bring it back for Him to ride...while they walked behind Him. Or Jesus' authority to change Simon's name from what Simon's father had named him. A teacher had full authority to exact discipline on a disciple as he wished. Teachers as Paul understood them had extreme authority over their disciples, a relationship we don't have today, not in the church or even in secular life.

That's what he had in mind when he said he didn't permit a woman to teach men: Doctrinal authority and disciplinary authority. He wasn't talking about a woman merely expounding information to a man, as Pricilla did with Apollos; Priscilla did not have any authority over Apollos, she merely provided him with information. He was saying that he did not permit men to be disciples under a master the way he had been under Gamaliel or Peter had been under Jesus. In our modern churches, a typical Sunday school "teacher" is merely expounding a prepared lesson text with no actual authority over the people in the class; Paul would not call that person a "teacher."

And Paul did direct that older women should teach younger women, which meant that there was a teaching role for women.

So, by Paul's instruction, a man was to be discipled under a man and a woman discipled under a woman. Essentially, Paul was opposed to co-ed discipleship.

That changed, however, if the woman was married. In that case, she was properly under her husband for teaching. When there were women "asking question" of the elders of the church, what did that actually mean in Paul's mind? Remember that teachers in that day commonly used some variation of the so-called "Socratic Method," learning by bouncing questions back and forth we see in Luke that Jesus was "asking questions" of the lawyers in the temple.

By "asking questions" of the elders during congregational services, those women were insinuating themselves as disciples of those male elders...which is what Paul prohibited. They should have been either disciples of older women if unmarried, or learning from their husbands if married.
 
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Strong in Him

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1 Corinthians 14:35-38

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
What law?
And why would Paul have instructed them to keep the law when he taught elsewhere that is cannot save?

If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
Why do you think he said that?
Could it be because women did want to inquire about things, and they were not remaining silent and waiting until they got home to ask their husbands, but interrupting the speaker or asking questions of the nearest available man?

If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command.
It may well have been the Lord's command to that church for that situation; that doesn't mean it is his command for women today in the 21st century.
in the mind of man there is a place where he is not bound to the law and at this place he will commit adultery.
Will he?
What's that got to do with women speaking in church?
Hosea 4:14
“I will not punish your daughters
when they turn to prostitution,
nor your daughters-in-law
when they commit adultery,
because the men themselves consort with harlots
and sacrifice with shrine prostitutes—
a people without understanding will come to ruin!

How can woman teach or preach when God will not punish woman?
I'm not sure why you've taken a random passage from the OT and put it alongside a passage from the NT which is on a totally different topic.
What was your reasoning behind putting these two passages together?

God seems to be saying in Hosea that he will not punish women for turning to prostitution or for committing adultery - because men desire, and seek out, prostitutes.
 
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Strong in Him

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You're missing the context. IN the Churches.
We ARE the church.
We are temples of the Holy Spirit, ambassadors for Christ, his witnesses and so on. If a Christian goes into a shop, school, pub etc etc, they are God's temple, and Christian witness, in that place; Christ in them is now also in that place. If 3 or 4 people have tea and cakes in a café, they are the church in that place. If a group of Christian women are sitting under a tree, studying or worshipping; they are the church.
A church is not just a building which we go into once a week.
 
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Strong in Him

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That doesn't give her authority to preach in the churches?
God gives women authority to preach in churches.
It is his Gospel, his Kingdom, his salvation; it is he who has made, and saved, us, given us gifts and filled us with his Spirit.
He can use/call whoever he wishes to preach his Good News.
 
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Strong in Him

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My God you are retarded, excuse the language.
Anyone resorting to personal insults has already lost the argument - or at least any respect they may have had.
 
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JesusFollowerForever

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Bla bla bla. The Levite priesthood offered the daily sacrifice. Like I said, the daily sacrifice has continued to be offered by the Apostles and in the Tradition of the Apostles. Challenge this at your own peril.
sorry I missed this can you explain how the apostles offered the daily sacrifice this is new to me. could you explain.

thank you.
 
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Strong in Him

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By "asking questions" of the elders during congregational services, those women were insinuating themselves as disciples of those male elders...which is what Paul prohibited.
By sitting at Jesus' feet, Mary was putting herself in the place of male students, learning from their Rabbi.
Jesus did not condemn this, he said that she had chosen the better way.
 
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NBB

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There are women ministers/pastor who God are using in a great way, even doing miracles.
And before you say, 'we did miracles and Jesus said never knew them etc'
Consider, that Jesus said: Believe by the miracles i am doing, and because he expulsed demons he said the Kingdom of God was near us.
People that God are using to do miracles are better off than those who God don't use, so i am tired of that scripture being used as something to not believe in miracles etc.
 
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RDKirk

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By sitting at Jesus' feet, Mary was putting herself in the place of male students, learning from their Rabbi.
Jesus did not condemn this, he said that she had chosen the better way.
Jesus was Jesus.

If we still had the same kind of master/disciple relationship today across the Church, we'd see a whole lot of Jim Jones situations, particularly a male master with a bevy of female disciples.
 
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Strong in Him

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Jesus was Jesus.
Jesus went against the norms of society.
Women weren't allowed to learn; Jesus showed what he thought of that idea.
Women weren't allowed to be witnesses; he chose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection.
Women could be divorced for the flimsiest of reasons; Jesus said that men and women were equally made in the image of God.

Yes, Jesus was Jesus - he showed us what God was like, "anyone who has seen me, has seen the Father. "And we are called to bear witness to him, to follow his example and to love as he loves.
 
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RDKirk

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Jesus went against the norms of society.
Women weren't allowed to learn; Jesus showed what he thought of that idea.
Women weren't allowed to be witnesses; he chose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection.
Women could be divorced for the flimsiest of reasons; Jesus said that men and women were equally made in the image of God.

Yes, Jesus was Jesus - he showed us what God was like, "anyone who has seen me, has seen the Father. "And we are called to bear witness to him, to follow his example and to love as he loves.
I said that Paul did not allow co-ed discipleship given the master/disciple relationship of his day.

What you said has no bearing on what I said.
 
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Strong in Him

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I said that Paul did not allow co-ed discipleship given the master/disciple relationship of his day.
Didn't he? Where did he say that?
You note that 1 Tim 2:12 starts with the words "let the women learn".
 
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