Creationists: how close is the Jewish Calandar to the age of the Earth?

[Job 33:6]

And I think that's another good analogy, tehom, the deep, similar to darkness, was not created outside of the six days.

God never says let there be darkness.. rather the darkness is present, it's simply exists. God creates light, God does not create darkness, and yet in the very beginning, darkness was there, so someone could ask where darkness came from.

Darkness was over the face of the deep, the deepest similar, God does not create it outside of the six days, rather it's just there.
And in the Bible, the deep is described as being Tohu wa bohu. It is nothing, it is emptiness.

Similar to darkness, it's just nothing. It's just there. God didn't create it.

 

[Platte]

Yea that's exactly right. Form them and fill them with chocolate chips.

That's what's it's saying. And before Platte begins making cookies, the cookies are formless and empty dough. And in 6 days, Platte forms them.

Then when Platte has finished his cookies in 6 days, on the 7th day, he blesses the cookies and rests on the throne and enjoys them with a glass of milk

Day 1 God created the formless and void earth. Genesis 1:1

 

[Job 33:6]

Day 1 God created the formless and void earth. Genesis 1:1

That's a true statement that God created the formless and void earth. But that doesn't actually happen in verse 1.

In the beginning when Platte created some cookies, the cookies were formless and empty, and then Platte said, let there be a cookie cutter.

It's true that platte created cookies over 6 days. But that doesn't begin until the 3rd sentence. The first sentence is just part of the introduction.

 

[Platte]

That's a true statement that God created the formless and void earth. But that doesn't actually happen in verse 1.

I'm sorry, so what happens in verse 1 (with regards to the earth)?

 

[Job 33:6]

I'm sorry, so what happens in verse 1 (with regards to the earth)?

In the beginning when Platte created cookies, the cookies were formless and empty, and Platte said "let there be a cookie cutter".

In these passages, the first sentence is simply part of an introduction. Platte isn't actually doing anything until he begins speaking in the 3rd verse. Nothing happens until then.

 

[Platte]

In these passages, the first sentence is simply part of an introduction. Platte isn't actually doing anything until he begins speaking in the 3rd verse. Nothing happens until then.

What was present prior to verse 3?

 

[Job 33:6]

What was present prior to verse 3?

Genesis doesn't say what's prior.

Proverbs 8 may be referenced:
Proverbs 8:22-27 ESV
[22] “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. [23] Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. [24] When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. [25] Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth, [26] before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. [27] When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,Proverbs 8:28-30 ESV
[28] when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, [29] when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, [30] then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,

Jesus and the holy Spirit were there beforehand. But Genesis doesn't talk about that.

 

[David Lamb]

Genesis doesn't say what's prior.

Proverbs 8 may be referenced:
Proverbs 8:22-27 ESV
[22] “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. [23] Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. [24] When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. [25] Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth, [26] before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. [27] When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,Proverbs 8:28-30 ESV
[28] when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, [29] when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, [30] then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,

Jesus and the holy Spirit were there beforehand. But Genesis doesn't talk about that.

Genesis does say what was prior to verse 3, where we read about God creating light. Before that, in verses 1-2 we have God creating the heavens and the earth, and God's Spirit hovering over the waters.

 

[Job 33:6]

Genesis does say what was prior to verse 3, where we read about God creating light. Before that, in verses 1-2 we have God creating the heavens and the earth, and God's Spirit hovering over the waters.

In the beginning when David lamb created cookies, and the cookies were formless and empty, then David said "let there be a cookie cutter".

Nothing happens in the first verse. It's just part of the introduction. David speaking (creating with the spoken word) is the first act of creation.

See here:

Creationists: how close is the Jewish Calandar to the age of the Earth?

Sure it does allow for pre existent things. In many ways. Ive made a pizza ex materia. Does that negate the truth that God made all things? Of course not. But however many pizzas you've made, you (as far as I know) do not claim to have made all things without exception. John says that all...

www.christianforums.com

And yes, the spirit over the waters is present in the beginning before God begins creating the heavens and the earth. But nothing is happening in verse 1 which is the point. It's just part of the introduction.

 

[David Lamb]

In the beginning when David lamb created cookies, and the cookies were formless and empty, then David said "let there be a cookie cutter".

Nothing happens in the first verse. It's just part of the introduction. David speaking (creating with the spoken word) is the first act of creation.

See here:

I cannot understand how you can say that nothing happens in the first verse (I'm talking about Genesis now, not cookies!) Genesis 1:1 says:

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Ge 1:1 NKJV)

What happened? God created the heavens and the earth. Hardly nothing. Unlike your cookie illustration, it doesn't include the word "when". It doesn't say " “In the beginning God when created the heavens and the earth.”

 

[Job 33:6]

I cannot understand how you can say that nothing happens in the first verse (I'm talking about Genesis now, not cookies!) Genesis 1:1 says:

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Ge 1:1 NKJV)

What happened? God created the heavens and the earth. Hardly nothing. Unlike your cookie illustration, it doesn't include the word "when". It doesn't say " “In the beginning God when created the heavens and the earth.”

You're cutting out the second half of the first sentence. It's not "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" it's "in the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth [,] the earth was a formless and empty void".

Here is the NASB for example:
Genesis 1:1-3 NASB2020
[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [2] And the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

You're cutting off the introduction without acknowledging the "And" in verse 2.

If I walked up to you and said "in the beginning, David made cookies and..."

And you just cut me off, and said "wait a minute! That's the end of the sentence, stop right there!" Then you would miss the part where I tell you "and the cookies were formless".

Or try the CEB:
Genesis 1:1-2 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters—

If I said "when David began to create cookies--"

And you cut me off right there, you would miss the second half of my sentence.

Or the NRSV:
Genesis 1:1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

In the beginning when David created cookies,

"Wait a minute, stop right there!"

You see, your cutting the first sentence in half without acknowledging the second part.

 

[Job 33:6]

You're cutting out the second half of the first sentence. It's not "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" it's "in the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth [,] the earth was a formless and empty void".

Here is the NASB for example:
Genesis 1:1-3 NASB2020
[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [2] And the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

You're cutting off the introduction without acknowledging the "And" in verse 2.

If I walked up to you and said "in the beginning, David made cookies and..."

And you just cut me off, and said "wait a minute! That's the end of the sentence, stop right there!" Then you would miss the part where I tell you "and the cookies were formless".

Or try the CEB:
Genesis 1:1-2 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters—

If I said "when David began to create cookies--"

And you cut me off right there, you would miss the second half of my sentence.

Or the NRSV:
Genesis 1:1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

In the beginning when David created cookies,

"Wait a minute, stop right there!"

You see, your cutting the first sentence in half without acknowledging the second part.

And some translations are going to pick this up or present it a little easier for English readers than others. NASB does a good job using connectives such as "And" and "Then" to help depict the flow. CEB cuts straight to the chase by simply saying "When God created" because these translators know that it's confusing people. NRSV kind of goes in the middle by saying "in the beginning when" so that readers get an understanding of how verse 1 connects with verse 2 etc.

So different translators are taking different approaches to show this to readers.

And in the original hebrew, the sentence is in construct form. It's similar to Jeremiah 26:1 and 27:1. "In the beginning of God created.

So some say "in the beginning when" to help the English flow better. other translations just say "in the beginning God created. And"

But it's all saying the same thing. Some translations just present it a little more clearly than others.
@David Lamb

 

[Job 33:6]

And some translations are going to pick this up or present it a little easier for English readers than others. NASB does a good job using connectives such as "And" and "Then" to help depict the flow. CEB cuts straight to the chase by simply saying "When God created" because these translators know that it's confusing people. NRSV kind of goes in the middle by saying "in the beginning when" so that readers get an understanding of how verse 1 connects with verse 2 etc.

So different translators are taking different approaches to show this to readers.

And in the original hebrew, the sentence is in construct form. It's similar to Jeremiah 26:1 and 27:1. "In the beginning of God created.

So some say "in the beginning when" to help the English flow better. other translations just say "in the beginning God created. And"

But it's all saying the same thing. Some translations just present it a little more clearly than others.
@David Lamb

And you can find a lot of evangelical hebrew scholars that speak about this in commentaries. But here is a nice recording of one who clarifies the topic well in one of his classes:

@David Lamb

A more detailed examination:

 

[David Lamb]

You're cutting out the second half of the first sentence. It's not "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" it's "in the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth [,] the earth was a formless and empty void".

Here is the NASB for example:
Genesis 1:1-3 NASB2020
[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [2] And the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

You're cutting off the introduction without acknowledging the "And" in verse 2.

If I walked up to you and said "in the beginning, David made cookies and..."

And you just cut me off, and said "wait a minute! That's the end of the sentence, stop right there!" Then you would miss the part where I tell you "and the cookies were formless".

Or try the CEB:
Genesis 1:1-2 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters—

If I said "when David began to create cookies--"

And you cut me off right there, you would miss the second half of my sentence.

Or the NRSV:
Genesis 1:1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

In the beginning when David created cookies,

"Wait a minute, stop right there!"

You see, your cutting the first sentence in half without acknowledging the second part.

But verse 2, about the earth being without form and void, is descriptive of what had happened in verse 1. It doesn't mean that nothing is described in verse 1 as happening. And I say again, verse 1 does not include the word "when", so your illustration of
In the beginning when David created cookies,

"Wait a minute, stop right there!"

is not the same thing. If you had said "In the beginning, David created cookies." that would be similar (not the same as God creating of course - I needed flour, eggs, etc. to make cookies). I've looked at several English bible translations, and without exception, Genesis 1:1 is one sentence, and Genesis 1:2 is another sentence, as it is in the New King James Version that I use:

“1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.” (Ge 1:1-2 NKJV)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Very far, cos I am an Old Earth Creationist who believes in day-age creationism and an earth that is 4.5 billion years old (and a universe that is 13.8 billion years old), where the Hebrew word "Yom" refers to an unspecified length of time that may vary. But hey, I will let my Young-Earth Creationist brethren join the thread, as I am curious if the Jewish calendar is related to Young-Earth Creationism in any way.

Actually it’s the Hebrew word Beyovm (in the day) that refers to an unspecified period of time. Yovm is never used in that manner in the OT.

 

[Job 33:6]

But verse 2, about the earth being without form and void, is descriptive of what had happened in verse 1.

No, it is not. Verse 2 is continuing the same statement.

In the beginning when David made cookies-- the cookies were without form, then David said...

It's like saying, [1]in the beginning when David baked some chocolate chip cookies, [2] And the cookies were doughy and without form and empty of chocolate chips, [3] then David preheated the oven and grabbed a bag of chips.

It's not saying,

"In the beginning, David made cookies, then [as a result] they were without form".

Do you see the difference?

 

[Job 33:6]

And I say again, verse 1 does not include the word "when", so your illustration of
In the beginning when David created cookies,

"Wait a minute, stop right there!"

is not the same thing.

As noted before, I shared multiple translations. NASB doesn't include "when" but says the same thing. The point is that reshit is in construct form. It's like saying "in the beginning of God created".

And responding with "well the sentence doesnt say "when" is incorrect. Because many translations do say "when" for this reason.

 

[David Lamb]

No, it is not. Verse 2 is continuing the same statement.

In the beginning when David made cookies-- the cookies were without form, then David said...

It's not saying,

"In the beginning, David made cookies, and when he finished making them, they were without form".

I am not qualified to measure the reliability of one bible translation against another, but your argument seems based on the particular translation you are using. The KJV, Bible in Basic English, ERV, ESV, Geneva, HCSB, JB2000, KJ21, Leeser, NKJV, RSV, Webster, and TRC, all have Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 as separate sentences.

The chief question surely is this: Does the bible teach that God created the heavens and the earth? The answer must be yes. Not only does Genesis 1:1 say so, but there are other verses too. For instance:

“And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.” (Heb 1:10 NKJV)

“For [in] six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.” (Ex 20:11 NKJV)

“You alone [are] the LORD; You have made heaven, The heaven of heavens, with all their host, The earth and everything on it, The seas and all that is in them, And You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You.” (Ne 9:6 NKJV)

“The heavens [are] Yours, the earth also [is] Yours; The world and all its fullness, You have founded them.” (Ps 89:11 NKJV)

“My help [comes] from the LORD, Who made heaven and earth.” (Ps 121:2 NKJV)

“"God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.” (Ac 17:24 NKJV)

 

[Job 33:6]

I've looked at several English bible translations, and without exception, Genesis 1:1 is one sentence, and Genesis 1:2 is another sentence

Maybe you have selective reading? There are many in which it is not 1 sentence.
NRSV
CEB
GNB
MSG
YLT
NRSVue
NAB
LEB

Among others. And many more that begin verse 2 with a connective such as "And" or "Now" such as:

NASB
NIV
TOJB
ASB
LSB
KJV
CSB
JUB
DRC
HCSB
BSB
DARBY
NET (see foot notes that references "when")

Among others.

Yes, it's true that the KJV does not say "when" and has two independent sentences. But unless you're a "KJV only" person, this response isn't particularly meaningful.

 

[David Lamb]

Maybe you have selective reading? There are many in which it is not 1 sentence.
NRSV
CEB
GNB
MSG
YLT
NRSVue
NAB
LEB

Among others. And many more that begin verse 2 with a connective such as "And" or "Now" such as:

NASB
NIV
TOJB
ASB
LSB
KJV
CSB
JUB
DRC
HCSB
BSB
DARBY
NET (see foot notes that references "when")

Among others.

Yes, it's true that the KJV does not say "when" and has two independent sentences. But unless you're a "KJV only" person, this response isn't particularly meaningful.

Not sure why you mentioned KJV only. I have already said that I use the NKJV, and in my reply I listed 12 versions apart from KJV.