Do you dare?

[Akita Suggagaki]

Ask Akita what he meant by his "dare." It would be good interpretive method and practice to do so, especially since he's still alive to ask.

See #76 & 77 on this page:

Do you dare?

No, it's really NOT convenient because the fact that there are some reasonable, bright people out there who are skeptics makes my effort to read, value, apply, and even DEFEND the Bible that much more difficult. While doing intensive word studies of the Bible is always a necessary thing, we...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

No one here is "changing" the Word of God to suit one's needs.

Right, we are trying to understand something deeper than the surface literalism. Sometimes it is simply that. Other times it is far deeper.

I find it troubling that the most vocal Christians seem to favor a very literal interpolation of everything. Except I have not yet seen any pluck out their eye or cut off their hand. They are much more likely to weaponize it all for others. Like the Popes recent comment about all religions.

"The Bible says..." that is about all that is needed for some of the most ridiculous cognitive claims, like "flat Earth" among others.

So, yes, I dare to swim against that shortsighted tide. I look for fellow swimmers.

When it comes to interpreting the Bible I believe we must be very careful and critical, appreciate the many forms and genres that we find.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Right, we are trying to understand something deeper than the surface literalism. Sometimes it is simply that. Other times it is far deeper.

I find it troubling that the most vocal Christians seem to favor a very literal interpolation of everything. Except I have not yet seen any pluck out their eye or cut off their hand. They are much more likely to weaponize it all for others. Like the Popes recent comment about all religions.

"The Bible says..." that is about all that is needed for some of the most ridiculous cognitive claims, like "flat Earth" among others.

So, yes, I dare to swim against that shortsighted tide. I look for fellow swimmers.

When it comes to interpreting the Bible I believe we must be very careful and critical, appreciate the many forms and genres that we find.

Exactly! And this is one reason why you and I read/study so widely, so we can become aware of the many nuances that indeed are intricate contexts of the ancient biblical literature.

 

[Derf]

Right, we are trying to understand something deeper than the surface literalism. Sometimes it is simply that. Other times it is far deeper.

Maybe...maybe not. To assert that it is is to conclude your own premise.

I find it troubling that the most vocal Christians seem to favor a very literal interpolation of everything. Except I have not yet seen any pluck out their eye or cut off their hand. They are much more likely to weaponize it all for others.

Isn't that what you just did with that comment?

Like the Popes recent comment about all religions.

"The Bible says..." that is about all that is needed for some of the most ridiculous cognitive claims, like "flat Earth" among others.

Ridiculous, yes, but eschewed by most literalists, even.

So, yes, I dare to swim against that shortsighted tide. I look for fellow swimmers.

When it comes to interpreting the Bible I believe we must be very careful and critical, appreciate the many forms and genres that we find.

Yet you are criticizing the critical. There is no doubt a need to be critical, and the only way to do that is to have a valid standard for testing different views. If the standard comes from one's self only, it will be inadequate. If it comes from a spiritual source only, it will be suspect, because it could be evil spirits, not to mention that such is usually channeled by those who are untrustworthy.

What that leaves us with is the bible and our own intelligence, backed up by critical people throughout the centuries. Your swim is not so desparately lonely as you make it out to be.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

What that leaves us with is the bible and our own intelligence, backed up by critical people throughout the centuries. Your swim is not so desparately lonely as you make it out to be.

True. at least since the reformation there have been more. But this forum and American culture seems not on board.

 

[Derf]

True. at least since the reformation there have been more. But this forum and American culture seems not on board.

Do you care whether American culture this forum or anyone else are on board? You're acting like everyone needs to swim with you for your swimming to be valid.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Do you care whether American culture this forum or anyone else are on board? You're acting like everyone needs to swim with you for your swimming to be valid.

While I'm sure I disagree with @Akita Suggagaki over some points of Hermeneutics and Theology, I can agree with him that it would help if more people began to realize the Bible didn't just drop out of the sky, hitting the desert ground with a loud thud and raising a huge, dusty plume. Of course, it would have been great if it had. But it didn't.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Do you care whether American culture this forum or anyone else are on board? You're acting like everyone needs to swim with you for your swimming to be valid.

No. I am more troubled by the attempts to somehow force Biblical literalist interpretations into political social issues and judgement of others..

 

[Derf]

No. I am more troubled by the attempts to somehow force Biblical literalist interpretations into political social issues and judgement of others..

Why? Isn't that just the stream they're swimming in?

 

[Derf]

While I'm sure I disagree with @Akita Suggagaki over some points of Hermeneutics and Theology, I can agree with him that it would help if more people began to realize the Bible didn't just drop out of the sky, hitting the desert ground with a loud thud and raising a huge, dusty plume. Of course, it would have been great if it had. But it didn't.

No, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He was born a poor baby in a small town. They were expecting a loud thud and a huge dusty plume, I suppose. He did leave that way, in clouds and rising into the air, and since He's supposed to return the way He left, you'll get your loud thud and dusty plume.

 

[AV1611VET]

Would anyone here dare to see the Genesis Adam and Eve "fall" more as a post exilic warning to the surviving Jewish community to obey the religious elders and their teachings (God)?

No.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Why? Isn't that just the stream they're swimming in?

They are forcing the current to make us all swim their way..

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He was born a poor baby in a small town. They were expecting a loud thud and a huge dusty plume, I suppose. He did leave that way, in clouds and rising into the air, and since He's supposed to return the way He left, you'll get your loud thud and dusty plume.

....here's some advice: if you don't fully understand the point that your interlocutor is positing, it's probably best to ask him what he/she means by it rather than assuming you do know and then blustering all over it with irrelevant, interpolative chatter, as if doing so somehow represents a valiant retort.

My point is that we live in a day and age where literacy in the West is common and hermeneutical education is fairly lowcost or even free. Because this is now available unlike hundreds of years ago, more people, Christians included, should be using their God given brains to be insightful and fair in not only their reading and application of the Bible, but also in their inquiry of its historical production. This, and this only, is what I was referring to above. No one here, most especially ME, is questioning the historical validity of Jesus of Nazareth or the applied theology by which we all state that He is the Son of God, 2nd Person in the Trinity.

 

[Derf]

They are forcing the current to make us all swim their way..

No they aren't. You just said you didn't care whether American culture, this forum or anyone else were on board with you. Now you are saying that you do care, because they won't agree with you. You're trying to get people to agree with you by playing the victim rather than on the strength of your position. That tells me your position is weak, if not altogether worthless.

If you have a position to assert, assert it and back it up rather than complaining about the direction of someone else's stream.

 

[Derf]

....here's some advice: if you don't fully understand the point that your interlocutor is positing, it's probably best to ask him what he/she means by it rather than assuming you do know and then blustering all over it with irrelevant, interpolative chatter, as if doing so somehow represents a valiant retort.

You would know about bluster.

My point is that we live in a day and age where literacy in the West is common and hermeneutical education is fairly lowcost or even free. Because this is now available unlike hundreds of years ago, more people, Christians included, should be using their God given brains to be insightful and fair in not only their reading and application of the Bible, but also in their inquiry of its historical production. This, and this only, is what I was referring to above. No one here, most especially ME, is questioning the historical validity of Jesus of Nazareth or the applied theology by which we all state that He is the Son of God, 2nd Person in the Trinity.

@Akita Suggagaki is. You just don't see it yet.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You would know about bluster.

Thank you for the compliment!

@Akita Suggagaki is. You just don't see it yet.

No, I see that his present interpretations are on the more liberal side of things. I also see that he's having some challenges in dealing with the meaning and probable historical origination of the Old Testament documents. But I'm not going to knock him over the head for it if he's struggling in his faith or if he's frustrated with how others attempt to make sense of the various interpretive positions out there that compete against one another.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

@Akita Suggagaki is. You just don't see it yet.

Then you do not understand me at all.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Would anyone here dare to see the Genesis Adam and Eve "fall" more as a post exilic warning to the surviving Jewish community to obey the religious elders and their teachings (God)?

So they have been invaded and exiled, diminished and scattered, now they are returning to Israel. So they create a narrative that gathers them, gives context to their successes and failures. They have to explain why this has happened to them, the chosen people. While they are at it, address the existential questions that all people struggle with, who are we, how did we get here, what does it all mean. Why?

This would mean seeing it less as a literal historical eating forbidden fruit. I know that is impossible for some here. But scholars speculate an a post exilic date. What motives would the authors have and what points trying to make? There is a cause of our suffering? But also, "Listen to us"?

Why have we been exiled? It must be punishment. For what? for disobedience.

 

[Derf]

So they have been invaded and exiled, diminished and scattered, now they are returning to Israel. So they create a narrative that gathers them, gives context to their successes and failures. They have to explain why this has happened to them, the chosen people.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying they created a false narrative to explain why actual things have happened to them.

While they are at it, address the existential questions that all people struggle with, who are we, how did we get here, what does it all mean. Why?

Why have we been exiled? It must be punishment. For what? for disobedience.

Which you think they were wrong about?

Let me get this straight, and you should correct me if I dont. The post exile Jews made up a story about Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and Moses which never happened?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying they created a false narrative to explain why actual things have happened to them.

Which you think they were wrong about?

Let me get this straight, and you should correct me if I dont. The post exile Jews made up a story about Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and Moses which never happened?

It is a mischaracterization of the process to say "false" narrative. Do you view Job as a false narrative? Psalms? Parables?
They are not false but a genres of literature with their won logic, meaning and purpose. It is quite possible that the post exilic Jewish leaders made use of many preexisting images, motifs, legends, stories, etc and fashioned them with new ides and intentions to help solidify their national identity.