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Washed and clothed in Christ: The beauty of the Sacrament of Holy Baptism

BelieveItOarKnot

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Is the problem that God has made promises?
God makes promises on both sides of the ledgers of good and bad, both aspects always remaining true.

Example:
Romans 2:9-11
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Followed by Paul's confession:
Romans 7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

I generally object to any forms of ritual eliminating the other side of the ledger, as if God has only one aspect for the compliant when the truth is, technically speaking, no one is in compliance, and can't be. We're all sinners, no different than anyone else, Romans 3:9. Baptism makes no one sinless. We all have an evil conscience, Heb. 10:22, and we all have evil thoughts that defile us, Mark 7:21-23. Baptism moves none of these facts, but people who promote the ritual think it does, and that to me is simply erroneous or untruthful teaching that flies in the face of internal reality
How do you link God making a promise to "name it and claim it" nonsense?

They do the same thing. Take a promise and then guarantee God will act
 
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ViaCrucis

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BelieveItOarKnot

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So you're taking issue with the idea that God is faithful?

-CryptoLutheran
I made some very specific observations.

Mainly that God remains just as firmly against the evil present within all of us as much as He Loves us

These are never one or the other deals

I'm thankful God's against evil, aren't you?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Can we agree on Merriam-Webster's definition of sacerdotalism?

religious belief emphasizing the powers of priests as essential mediators between God and humankind

I would consider that definition fine, if a little deficient.

Of course, this isn't how you were using sacerdotalism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I made some very specific observations.

Mainly that God remains just as firmly against the evil present within all of us as much as He Loves us

These are never one or the other deals

I'm thankful God's against evil, aren't you?

Perhaps you could elaborate on the relevance here.

You made a mention about how Baptism doesn't make a person sinless, which--no duh--I'm not aware of anyone who thinks it does.

I'm not aware of anyone saying that the Sacraments make a person sinless or changes the fact that we have to deal with evil in our own hearts and lives. So that seems like a rather meaningless strawman of an argument.

I feel like people are trying to have an argument with an imaginary person. Creating this imaginary person, and then creating imaginary things to argue against.

The issue, of course, is whether there are promises attached to Baptism. Are there? The answer is yes. There are promises attached to baptism.
Does that make baptism magical? No. Does that mean performing a baptismal rite somehow forces God to do something, or as though there is some automatic bing bang bong mechanism that just happens? No.

It just means that God keeps His promises.

Apparently, and I'm really struggling to understand why any Christian would take issue with this, that's a problem?

I know that can't be the actual issue here. I refuse to believe you are genuinely against God being faithful. So clearly there's something creating some fuzziness in your thinking here. I'd like to uncover that, because something funky is going on here.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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bbbbbbb

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I would consider that definition fine, if a little deficient.

Of course, this isn't how you were using sacerdotalism.

-CryptoLutheran
Thank you. Do you believe in the necessity of a properly ordained pastor for the performance of the rite of baptism?
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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I'm not aware of anyone saying that the Sacraments make a person sinless or changes the fact that we have to deal with evil in our own hearts and lives. So that seems like a rather meaningless strawman of an argument.
Depends entirely on the sect's views on the subject, which I'm sure you know, vary dramatically
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thank you. Do you believe in the necessity of a properly ordained pastor for the performance of the rite of baptism?

No. I do not believe it is necessary for the one ministering the Sacrament of Baptism to be a pastor. The historic Christian position is that it is ideal for pastors to be the ones performing the baptismal rite; but it is not necessary.

Two thousand years of consistent Christian practice has been that, under ordinary circumstances, we let the pastor do what is their vocation to do; part of their vocation--the reason why they were called and ordained--is to preach the Word and administer the Sacraments. So, for the same reason that we generally expect pastors to preach, we generally expect pastors to administer Holy Baptism. Does one have to be a pastor to preach a sermon? Of course not. Does one have to be a pastor to administer Baptism? No, of course not.

When it comes to the Lord's Table things get a bit more complicated. And that's where Sacerdotalism has a more significant meaning; and also--speaking as a Lutheran--why Lutherans reject Sacerdotalism. The Roman Catholic view is that only priests may administer the Lord's Supper, and the reason why only priests may administer the Lord's Supper is because during the Consecration the bread and wine only become the body and blood of Jesus Christ through valid Holy Orders--through a validly ordained priest. Lutherans reject the Catholic (aka Sacerdotal) view because we do not believe that it has anything to do with the pastor that makes the Lord's Supper be the body and blood of Christ (notice I said "be" not "become" and that's important here), but has everything to do with God's Word. Lutherans do insist that pastors administer the Lord's Supper, not because of a sacerdotal grace vested in the pastor; but because it serves the general good order of the Church (1 Corinthians 14:33). For the sake of good order, for the sake of Christian peace, the Divine Service should be orderly; and it is sensible that those whom the Church has called and ordained to the vocation of ministry should be the ones, in ordinary circumstances, ministering.

Lutherans deny the heresies of Novatian, Donatus, as well as reject the teaching of Sacerdotalism. Pastors are not sacerdotes, they are not "priests" in the sense of the ancient priests of Israel, or pagan priests. Pastors are pastors, and while the Church, for good order, permits those called and ordained as pastors to exercise the Office of the Keys, and to act as servants of Word and Sacrament in the Church, it has nothing to do with pastors having a sacerdotal quality. Rather it has to do with pastors having a ministry, a service, and the Church does things for good order in worship so that we don't descend into chaos. It is for the sake of the clear preaching of the Word, and clear Christian teaching, that things be done in a wholesome and orderly way.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Depends entirely on the sect's views on the subject, which I'm sure you know, vary dramatically

Can you name a single mainstream Christian tradition that believes that baptism makes a person sinless? The views of bizarre fringe sects or those of cults have no place in this conversation. There's no comparing the historic, traditional Christian view of baptism with the bizarre teachings of fringe groups and cults.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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bbbbbbb

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No. I do not believe it is necessary for the one ministering the Sacrament of Baptism to be a pastor. The historic Christian position is that it is ideal for pastors to be the ones performing the baptismal rite; but it is not necessary.

Two thousand years of consistent Christian practice has been that, under ordinary circumstances, we let the pastor do what is their vocation to do; part of their vocation--the reason why they were called and ordained--is to preach the Word and administer the Sacraments. So, for the same reason that we generally expect pastors to preach, we generally expect pastors to administer Holy Baptism. Does one have to be a pastor to preach a sermon? Of course not. Does one have to be a pastor to administer Baptism? No, of course not.

When it comes to the Lord's Table things get a bit more complicated. And that's where Sacerdotalism has a more significant meaning; and also--speaking as a Lutheran--why Lutherans reject Sacerdotalism. The Roman Catholic view is that only priests may administer the Lord's Supper, and the reason why only priests may administer the Lord's Supper is because during the Consecration the bread and wine only become the body and blood of Jesus Christ through valid Holy Orders--through a validly ordained priest. Lutherans reject the Catholic (aka Sacerdotal) view because we do not believe that it has anything to do with the pastor that makes the Lord's Supper be the body and blood of Christ (notice I said "be" not "become" and that's important here), but has everything to do with God's Word. Lutherans do insist that pastors administer the Lord's Supper, not because of a sacerdotal grace vested in the pastor; but because it serves the general good order of the Church (1 Corinthians 14:33). For the sake of good order, for the sake of Christian peace, the Divine Service should be orderly; and it is sensible that those whom the Church has called and ordained to the vocation of ministry should be the ones, in ordinary circumstances, ministering.

Lutherans deny the heresies of Novatian, Donatus, as well as reject the teaching of Sacerdotalism. Pastors are not sacerdotes, they are not "priests" in the sense of the ancient priests of Israel, or pagan priests. Pastors are pastors, and while the Church, for good order, permits those called and ordained as pastors to exercise the Office of the Keys, and to act as servants of Word and Sacrament in the Church, it has nothing to do with pastors having a sacerdotal quality. Rather it has to do with pastors having a ministry, a service, and the Church does things for good order in worship so that we don't descend into chaos. It is for the sake of the clear preaching of the Word, and clear Christian teaching, that things be done in a wholesome and orderly way.

-CryptoLutheran
Thank you for the excellent clarification. I apologize for my misunderstanding and misrepresentation.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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Can you name a single mainstream Christian tradition that believes that baptism makes a person sinless? The views of bizarre fringe sects or those of cults have no place in this conversation. There's no comparing the historic, traditional Christian view of baptism with the bizarre teachings of fringe groups and cults.

-CryptoLutheran
Many a baptist sect will present that baptism washes us clean of sin, or sins of the past. So do many charismatic sects

Lutherans don't even have an immersion baptism. Neither do the orthodox. It's all mainly for infants, just as it was for me. (may not be the case for E.O. Don't know much about their systems)

Not that any such infants actually recall or believe anything. So it's essentially done for unbelievers in that regard. Like some kind of a talisman to protect them from God if they die
 
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bbbbbbb

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Many a baptist sect will present that baptism washes us clean of sin, or sins of the past. So do many charismatic sects

Lutherans don't even have an immersion baptism. Neither do the orthodox. It's all mainly for infants, just as it was for me. (may not be the case for E.O. Don't know much about their systems)

Not that any such infants actually recall or believe anything. So it's essentially done for unbelievers in that regard. Like some kind of a talisman to protect them from God if they die
The Eastern Orthodox churches do practice immersion baptism, even for infants. The priest swishes the baby through the water, not once, not, twice, but three times. Then the baby is anointed with oil. When it is all said and done they end up with one well-washed (baptized) baby.

As I understand Eastern Orthodoxy, it is essential for the priest to officiate, primarily because the ritual is quite complex such that ordinary laymen face quite a challenge to memorize it and then actually perform it.

As for Baptists, the vast majority are credo-baptists who believe that baptism is the outward sign of an inward conversion and, thus, reject the notion that baptism is salvific in any sense of the word. The Anabaptists, who are frequently conflated with the Baptists, are another set of denominations entirely. They generally can be grouped into two primary classes, at least in the United States. There are Anabaptists who came out of the Protestant Reformation in Europe. The include such denominations as the varieties of Amish and Mennonites, German Brethren (Dunkard Brethren, Grace Brethren, Evangelical United Brethren, etc.). The second class are commonly known as Campbellites, who derive their origin from Alexander Campbell and others who were active in the early nineteenth century during the great American revivals of that time. These include the varieties of Churches of Christ (not to be confused with the United Church of Christ, which includes most Congregational Churches), Christian Churches, and Disciples of Christ. Many, if not most, of the aforementioned denominations do assign salvific properties to baptism.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Many a baptist sect will present that baptism washes us clean of sin, or sins of the past. So do many charismatic sects

I'm not aware of a single denomination or church within the Baptist tradition that teaches that baptism washes us clean of sin.

Now, that baptism washes us of our sin is what the historic churches believe. But that's a very different thing than becoming "sinless". In Acts 2:38 when St. Peter was preaching by the power of the Holy Spirit he said, "repent and be baptized, all of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins"; this along with a number of other passages of Scripture makes it clear that there is forgiveness of sins in baptism.

Forgiveness =/= sinlessness.

St. John tells us, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).

While I grew up in the Pentecostal tradition (Foursquare), I am not fully fluent in all the various strains of Pentecostalism or Charismaticism. The only Pentecostal church that I know that even regards baptism as doing anything at all are the Oneness or "Jesus' name only" Pentecostals, who believe in their particular idiosyncratic practice of baptizing in "Jesus' name only". So, sure, I can at least entertain the notion that there is possibly some groups within the fringes of Pentecostalism or Charismaticism which teach baptism conveys impeccability. But I'm not aware of any. And, those would, again, be on the fringes; not any mainstream, historic tradition of Christianity.

Lutherans don't even have an immersion baptism. Neither do the orthodox.

The general practice in Lutheranism is, in keeping with Western historical practice more generally, baptism via the mode of affusion rather than immersion. The Orthodox, however, very much do baptize via the mode of immersion. The Eastern historical practice has always been three-fold immersion, which was the standard practice of the ancient Church. Affusion, aka, "pouring" has always been acceptable as well, as can be seen in the Didache, though it wasn't normative in antiquity. Of course the mode of baptism is irrelevant, it isn't the point of baptism.

It's all mainly for infants, just as it was for me. (may not be the case for E.O. Don't know much about their systems)

All of the historic churches baptize infants, because it is traditional and ancient Christian practice since apostolic times. The Orthodox, as noted, use three-fold immersion as their mode, and that applies to infants as well.

It's not "mainly for infants", but all Christians, until relatively recently, practiced paedobaptism. Because the Scriptures say "This is for you and for your children" (Acts 2:39), and the Lord Himself rebukes those who would deny infants and children from coming to Him. The Christian Church has always welcomed children into the household of faith because God has always welcomed and embraced children into His house. When God made His covenant with Abraham He commanded Abraham to have all males circumcised, from the eighth day after they are born. This is actually one of the reasons why the number 8 has symbolic significance in Christian art, such as why baptismal fonts are often eight-sided. The other reason is because the day of Christ's resurrection has been, since ancient times, called the "8th day of creation", because with His rising there is new creation, and so the number 8 is associated in Christian art with regeneration and renewal.

Not that any such infants actually recall or believe anything. So it's essentially done for unbelievers in that regard. Like some kind of a talisman to protect them from God if they die

That is, of course, complete and total poppycock. Since faith is a work and gift of God by His grace, not a work of man ("For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith, and it is not of yourselves, it is God's gift; not of works so that none may boast" Ephesians 2:8-9) which He accomplishes by the working of His own word ("Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17)), and since in baptism Christ washes us clean "with the washing of water with the word" (Ephesians 5:26), then we can be entirely confident that the Lord who works and creates faith will keep His word. The infant who is baptized is a believer in Jesus Christ. It is impossible to separate faith from baptism; the two go hand-in-hand.

It is not a "talisman", it is the grace and power of God, and in His word--the Holy Scriptures--it is written, "All of you who were baptized have put on Christ" (Galatians 3:27). This is true, because God declares it to be true. The faithlessness of sinful human beings who are incredulous against the Gospel doesn't negate the truth of God's word. Just because the atheist says "There is no god" does not mean there is no God. Just because the Pagan Greek calls the Crucified Christ foolishness, doesn't change the fact that the Crucified Christ is the power and wisdom of God. Incredulousness doesn't negate the Gospel. So just because you may not believe that infants can have faith doesn't change anything. And even from a position of pure human reason it is demonstrable that even newborn infants can have faith, when the infant stretches out his/her hand for their mother, that implicit trust is, indeed, a kind of faith. It is precisely that very thing--trust--in Christ that constitutes saving faith. Faith is not about what we know, but Who we trust.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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