The Pope Denies John 14:6.

[All Becomes New]

It’s less mysterious when understood as written with liturgical symbolism. My post was intended for Alex but sent to you by mistake. The intention was to lower his anxiety about reading the Apocalypse, which is often a sort of Rorschach test for different Protestant eschatologies where they see what they want to see. It is also permissible to read it and not have every detail of when the second coming happens figured out.

I agree that many Protestants use the book completely inappropriately. That doesn't mean there is some magic key that you have for interpreting it either.

 

[chevyontheriver]

To be fair, this is not just a problem for Catholics and the Pope. We seem to see this sort of idea throughout the Christian world. It is a kind of theological liberalism. The "Religious right" sees this and overcompensates leading to things like kinism and such even going as far as being anti-semitic and supporting Hitler. Meanwhile, the left goes further and further to the left, celebrating the trans insanity, abortion, euthanasia, etc.

I have no idea what ‘kinism’ is. I just looked it up and it seems way too tribal and racist for me. I just don’t travel in those circles. Jesus Christ went beyond the bounds of the Nation of Israel to launch his Church to Jews AND Gentiles from all corners of the world. Not that all the supposed deities from all corners of the world were saviors or even real. There is to be ONE Lord and savior. Nobody gets saved that Jesus doesn’t save. I guess pope Francis forgot that or never knew that.

 

[All Becomes New]

I have no idea what ‘kinism’ is. I just looked it up and it seems way too tribal and racist for me. I just don’t travel in those circles. Jesus Christ went beyond the bounds of the Nation of Israel to launch his Church to Jews AND Gentiles from all corners of the world. Not that all the supposed deities from all corners of the world were saviors or even real. There is to be ONE Lord and savior. Nobody gets saved that Jesus doesn’t save. I guess pope Francis forgot that or never knew that.

That's exactly the point. The Gospel transcends culture. That is what is so beautiful about it. And yes, kinism is the idea that you should not intermarry with other "races" (I hate that word and I always cringe when I have to use it).

 

[chevyontheriver]

I agree that many Protestants use the book completely inappropriately. That doesn't mean there is some magic key that you have for interpreting it either.

It’s not a magic key, and not really a secret either. It’s always been in plain sight and rather obvious for the Orthodox and Catholics to see. The liturgical Protestants like the Missouri Synod Lutherans can see it too. It’s the non-liturgical Protestants who no longer think in liturgical terms who would struggle with lamp stands and incense and the like. There is Temple liturgy alluded to throughout the Apocalypse, and that Temple liturgy fulfilled in Jesus Christ was the basis for much of the Christian liturgy. It simply made more sense to people in 70 AD than it does to non-liturgical people.

 

[chevyontheriver]

That's exactly the point. The Gospel transcends culture. That is what is so beautiful about it. And yes, kinism is the idea that you should not intermarry with other "races" (I hate that word and I always cringe when I have to use it).

Yuck. Race is substantially irrelevant in Christ. I’m glad I was never brought up to think that way. All can come to Christ and be redeemed by Christ if they consent to faith. Even a Democrat theoretically could do that.

 

[All Becomes New]

It’s the non-liturgical Protestants who no longer think in liturgical terms who would struggle with lamp stands and incense and the like. There is Temple liturgy alluded to throughout the Apocalypse, and that Temple liturgy fulfilled in Jesus Christ was the basis for much of the Christian liturgy. It simply made more sense to people in 70 AD than it does to non-liturgical people.

The non-liturgical Protestants believe scripture interprets scripture. Everyone is sure their interpretation is correct. And I have seen Catholics' interpretation of reading Mary into Revelation 12, which is pathetic. It's the definition of Eisegesis.

 

[All Becomes New]

If you read the article on Catholic sources, that’s not completely what he said.

The problem with this is that even if the Pope did deny John 14:6, then because so much is at stake for Catholics and their Pope--the one who is supposed to represent Christ on earth--that of course they will twist it even in the case that the Pope was wrong.

 

[chevyontheriver]

In terms of personal morality, yes, but in terms of doctrine, I can't agree. No other pope in history, to my knowledge, has taught that all religions are paths to God, that God wills the plurality of religions, that Martin Luther didn't err in his doctrine of justification, etc.

It's still not a settled matter among Catholic theologians whether it's possible for a pope to hold and teach a heretical belief, but with Pope Francis, at this point I don't know how a Catholic could answer in the negative and not be a sedevacantist.

I think it is and has always been possible for a pope to err in his personal beliefs. Just as it is possible for a pope to sin. I don'y think we believe in any sort of infallibility in personal beliefs, and I know we have never accepted that a pope can't sin. Nor do we believe that the college of cardinals is infallible in picking a pope. Pope Benedict made that point clearly before he became pope. Nor do we believe that papal appointments are somehow infallible. Nor that Vatican offices have any claim to infallibility in what they do. The only thing we actually claim is that when it comes to a pope teaching with the authority of his office he is protected from teaching any outright error. That's it. Not even that he teaches the truth so comprehensively that more can't be discovered later that nuances what a pope has officially taught.

So far, so far pope Francis hasn't actually officially taught anything horrible. He has appointed horrible people, and he has had horrible personal opinions, but somehow it seems that outright heresy gets stuck in his throat when he tries to officially teach it or his pen runs out of ink when he tries to write those official documents. He just hasn't succeeded in doing it yet.

Believe me there are people watching for pope Francis to officially jump the shark or whatever and teach error. So far it seems he has gotten close, real close. There have been 'fraternal corrections' by theologians and by bishops that pope Francis has conveniently ignored. He tends to demote people like that. Bishop Strickland is an example, but as of yet the Vatican never came up with any sort of charge as the basis for demoting him. I think because that might be an 'official act, declaring Strickland a heretic or apostate or something. He has been challenged on his personal heresies many times. And by the horrible nature of many of his appointments. Some people have gone sedevacantist, and the temptation is there to do so. Among those who haven't gone that way there are a few 'Francis True Believers' and many who are so out of the loop they don't know what's been happening. But the rest of us are watching, sometimes holding our breath, sometimes facepalming, sometimes headbanging.

 

[Servus]

Pope Francis to children: "All religions are paths to reach God ... some are Sikh, Muslim, Hindu, Christians; they are different ways to God."

Pope Francis was just at an event in Singapore where he told a group of kids that all roads lead to God.

notthebee.com

If Jesus said he is the ONLY WAY to the Father, but the Pope says all religions lead to God, then the Pope is denying the Bible and centuries at least of Christian theology.

Well... going by this ideology Christ is still the only way. That if these people knew Jesus they would be Christians. But since they haven't gotten to know him they're seeking for him through whatever they do know.

When you come to think of it, it is mighty convenient for most Christians that they are born in a country where Christianity is prevalent.

 

[All Becomes New]

Well... going by this ideology Christ is still the only way. That if these people knew Jesus they would be Christians. But since they haven't gotten to know him they're seeking for him through whatever they do know.

When you come to think of it, it is mighty convenient for most Christians that they are born in a country where Christianity is prevalent.

Has nothing to do with where you are born. The US is exposed to Christianity but not many people in the US are actually Christians or have a Biblical worldview. Futher, God can (and does) send people visions and dreams about or from Christ. Why does God do that? You should ask him. But if I have a theory it is that anyone who honestly seeks after the Truth honestly will end up with Christ.

 

[Servus]

Has nothing to do with where you are born. The US is exposed to Christianity but not many people in the US are actually Christians or have a Biblical worldview. Futher, God can (and does) send people visions and dreams about or from Christ. Why does God do that? You should ask him. But if I have a theory it is that anyone who honestly seeks after the Truth honestly will end up with Christ.

I'm guessing you weren't put to that test.

 

[All Becomes New]

I'm guessing you weren't put to that test.

I was actually.

 

[Servus]

Billy Graham gives a good succinct explanation of inclusionism here.

I'm not a teacher or proponent of this view. I just studied it some years ago.

 

[Servus]

I was actually.

Oh good I was hoping you'd say that. I was raised as a Christian so I don't know from personal experience what it's like to not have been familiar with Christ at all.

Do you mind going into some detail about your experience?

 

[All Becomes New]

Billy Graham gives a good succinct explanation of inclusionism here.

I'm not a teacher or proponent of this view. I just studied it some years ago.

I don't give a crap who says it. It could be my father, I would still think it is nonsense.

 

[All Becomes New]

Oh good I was hoping you'd say that. I was raised as a Christian so it's hard to know from personal experience to not have been familiar with Christ.

Do you mind going into details about your experience?

Search on my website "My Testimony of How My Faith Was Confirmed" and you will see the article. My website is linked to the left.

 

[Servus]

I don't give a crap who says it. It could be my father, I would still think it is nonsense.

I didn't post that because it's Graham. I just posted it because it's the only video I remember that gives a quick good explanation of the inclusionist view.

 

[All Becomes New]

I didn't post that because it's Graham. I just posted it because it's the only video I remember that gives a quick good explanation of the inclusionist view.

I am already aware of this position. I realize some people are not. However, the Bible does not teach inclusivism. Read no further than Acts 17 and how Paul tries to persuade them of the Christian faith.

 

[Servus]

Here's a rebuttal video

 

[All Becomes New]

Here's a rebuttal video

I don't care much for JMac, but he is right here.