Ecclesiology; do you have bishops?

[Daniel9v9]

I mean that you wrote of him as if he were a contemporary theologian that you had recently come across.

Ah, sorry for the confusion. When I refer to writings, even if the author is dead, I sometimes use present tense because their arguments still stand. But yes, both Jerome and Bellarmine are certainly long gone, but I think it’s good to reflect on what past generations had to say. We don’t always have to agree with them, but a lot of what they wrote can be very helpful, because they wrestled with many of the things which people still struggle with in our time. But my point is very simple: we’ll do well if God’s Word governs things.

 

[Always in His Presence]

we’ll do well if God’s Word governs things.

Amen!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

we’ll do well if God’s Word governs things.

I would love to agree with this statement except I am almost certain that by "God's Word" you likely mean a book, the bible, while for me is means God's Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Where Christ rules there is peace and goodness.

 

[Daniel9v9]

I would love to agree with this statement except I am almost certain that by "God's Word" you likely mean a book, the bible, while for me is means God's Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Where Christ rules there is peace and goodness.

Yes, Christ is indeed the Word, the Logos. But is the Bible just a book? Isn't it the prophetic and apostolic words inspired by God the Holy Spirit for us? Isn't it the means through which we can be absolutely certain of God's work, will, and promises? And if someone says something contrary to the Bible, shouldn't we always listen to the Bible?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes, Christ is indeed the Word, the Logos. But is the Bible just a book? Isn't it the prophetic and apostolic words inspired by God the Holy Spirit for us? Isn't it the means through which we can be absolutely certain of God's work, will, and promises? And if someone says something contrary to the Bible, shouldn't we always listen to the Bible?

The bible is a book. I didn't write: "just a book" but nevertheless it is a book. It is not God, it is not alive, it is not the source of eternal life.

 

[RileyG]

Hasn't he been dead quite a long time?

Yes. 403 years.

 

[RileyG]

Not really, all it means is that a Bishop is also a Priest.

Correct, he still remains a priest. Just like a priest still remains a deacon after his priestly ordination.

 

[RileyG]

In the Pentecostal arena - Bishops (overseers) hold office in a number of different area's.

1. They are Elders in the Church and have distinct area's they are responsible for and oversee.
2. They are also called Executive Pastors who oversee day to day operations of a modern church.
3. They oversee Sunday School classes and Curriculum.

Often, when a church expands into multiple Campuses, the Lead or Senior Pastor become the overseer or "Bishop" of those churches he has founded.

In the Assemblies of God we also have Presbyters who function as overseers of a district, area or entire State.

I have a super dumb question, but it was my understanding that bishops were more common in African American Pentecostal denominations, and they often wore vestments similar to Anglican and Catholic bishops?

Thanks for the info.

I actually didn't know this.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I have a super dumb question, but it was my understanding that bishops were more common in African American Pentecostal denominations, and they often wore vestments similar to Anglican and Catholic bishops?

Thanks for the info.

I actually didn't know this.

Not a dumb question at all -

Certain Pentecostal groups in Africa and a couple in the Middle East use the vestments and title. I could be mistaken because i do not have complete knowledge but I know of several who have been given the title denoting their years of service. What we would call Pastor Emeritus, they call Bishops. The role of an Elder in the Body.

 

[RileyG]

Not a dumb question at all -

Certain Pentecostal groups in Africa and a couple in the Middle East use the vestments and title. I could be mistaken because i do not have complete knowledge but I know of several who have been given the title denoting their years of service. What we would call Pastor Emeritus, they call Bishops. The role of an Elder in the Body.

Ah, very interesting!

Thanks for the response.

 

[Daniel9v9]

The bible is a book. I didn't write: "just a book" but nevertheless it is a book. It is not God, it is not alive, it is not the source of eternal life.

Isn't the Gospel the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes? (Romans 1:16). And isn't that recorded for us by the Lord's prophets and apostles, inspired by God the Holy Spirit? And if we love Jesus, shouldn't we keep His word? (John 14:23). And isn't that word described in the Bible as living and active and breathed out by God? (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Here's what John writes:
"Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name."

I'm not saying that the Bible is God and I don't know anyone who claims that. But I am saying that the Bible certainly are the true words of God. So, in other words, if we want to know what God has done for us, what He calls us to do, and what good promises He has for us, we should listen to that same Word and let that stand above every other word.

Here's what the Roman Catholic Catechism says, by the way:

Article 3

SACRED SCRIPTURE

I. Christ - The Unique Word of Sacred Scripture

101 In order to reveal himself to men, in the condescension of his goodness God speaks to them in human words: "Indeed the words of God, expressed in the words of men, are in every way like human language, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when he took on himself the flesh of human weakness, became like men."

102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:

You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.

103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord's Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God's Word and Christ's Body.

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God" "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."

For what it's worth, I agree with the high view of the Scriptures as expressed in the RC Catechism.

So, if we think about this practically, we can for example consider the topic of this thread, regarding the office of Bishop. Does the Bible make a distinction between Bishop and Priest or does it use the words interchangeably? It uses them interchangeably, which is even recognised by Roman Catholic dogmaticians and the early church. So that's why church bodies who hold to the Scriptures as their authority, as opposed to Scripture and Holy Tradition, for example, are compelled to believe in a twofold office.

But whatever we believe about Holy Tradition, we should at least believe that the Bible is the true words of God, which I know the Roman Catholic Church formally does.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Isn't the Gospel the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes? (Romans 1:16).

Yes, the gospel is a message it is not a book.

And isn't that recorded for us by the Lord's prophets and apostles, inspired by God the Holy Spirit?

A lot is recorded in holy scripture. A lot is recorded in the liturgy and practises of Christians in the church.

And if we love Jesus, shouldn't we keep His word? (John 14:23).

The word (logos, which means a spoken word) is what Jesus said, not specifically what is written in the holy scriptures.

And isn't that word described in the Bible as living and active and breathed out by God? (Hebrews 4:12;

Yes, the spoken word, that is to say, the message of the gospel is spoken by God (the Son).

2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Finally, a passage that is about scripture, in this case the scriptures of the Old Testament. All of the Old Testament is inspired by God and it is all useful ....

For what it's worth, I agree with the high view of the Scriptures as expressed in the RC Catechism.

The high view is expressed about revelation from God and not about holy scripture only.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Yes, the gospel is a message it is not a book.

A lot is recorded in holy scripture. A lot is recorded in the liturgy and practises of Christians in the church.

The word (logos, which means a spoken word) is what Jesus said, not specifically what is written in the holy scriptures.

Yes, the spoken word, that is to say, the message of the gospel is spoken by God (the Son).

Finally, a passage that is about scripture, in this case the scriptures of the Old Testament. All of the Old Testament is inspired by God and it is all useful ....

The high view is expressed about revelation from God and not about holy scripture only.

Yes, the Gospel is a message, but it's recorded for us by prophets, the apostles, and those close to the apostles. John writes that "these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name."

As to the authority of the New Testament, we don't want to forget that Peter equates the writings of Paul with "the other Scriptures", meaning the Old Testament, in 2 Peter 3:16. And again, Paul says: "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord." Or just think about how most of the New Testament writings open: "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in Isaiah the prophet ...", "Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle ...", "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ ...", "Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James ...", etc.

This is to say that the New Testament carries the same authority as the Old Testament, for both are inspired by the Holy Spirit. This is believed and taught by the Roman Catholic Church. You can find this in the Roman Catholic Catechism, IV. The Canon of Scripture.

Just think about this practically: If two people argue about what Jesus said about divorce, for example — Where can we find the words of Jesus that settle the debate? In the Bible. So, can the Church call people to repentance and faith using words, through preaching? And can we find those same words in liturgies and hymns? Absolutely, yes! But when we're discussing doctrine, when we strive to find the truth, I contend that the only unambiguous place we can go to is the Bible. And again, the Roman Catholic Church says in its Catechism that the "Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord's Body". I think this is good and right.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

As to the authority of the New Testament

This thread isn't about the authority of the New Testament.

 

[Daniel9v9]

This thread isn't about the authority of the New Testament.

You’re right, but I’ve been responding to what you say and I don’t know if you realise it, you’ve actually done a fine job in demonstrating my main point That is, as a good Roman Catholic, you’ve appealed to what you receive as Holy Tradition. That’s consistent with Roman Catholic teaching. And if we want to argue for a threefold office, we can do that on the basis of tradition, but it’s very difficult to argue for a threefold office based on Scripture, and that problem also extends to the early church.

Simply, if anyone contends that the Bible teaches that the office of Bishop is a distinct and higher office from that of Pastor/Priest, with different responsibilities or rights, I would like to know where exactly in the Bible this is taught.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You’re right, but I’ve been responding to what you say and I don’t know if you realise it, you’ve actually done a fine job in demonstrating my main point That is, as a good Roman Catholic, you’ve appealed to what you receive as Holy Tradition. That’s consistent with Roman Catholic teaching. And if we want to argue for a threefold office, we can do that on the basis of tradition, but it’s very difficult to argue for a threefold office based on Scripture, and that problem also extends to the early church.

Simply, if anyone contends that the Bible teaches that the office of Bishop is a distinct and higher office from that of Pastor/Priest, with different responsibilities or rights, I would like to know where exactly in the Bible this is taught.

Many Lutheran denominations have bishops.

My first post was kind of written out of amused interest in how a KJV only Baptist explains the lack of bishops in their ecclesiology since the KJV is one of the translations that consistently uses bishop as well as elder and deacon giving that translation the vocabulary of threefold office within the church.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Many Lutheran denominations have bishops.

My first post was kind of written out of amused interest in how a KJV only Baptist explains the lack of bishops in their ecclesiology since the KJV is one of the translations that consistently uses bishop as well as elder and deacon giving that translation the vocabulary of threefold office within the church.

Yes, I know many Lutheran churches have bishops. As mentioned before, I have the joy and privilege of being one. I’d be glad to explain in more detail if you like, but in short, we retain the office in our freedom in Christ, but we don’t believe it’s a higher office by divine right, because the Scriptures use the terms commonly translated as Elder (presbyteros) and Overseer (episkopos) interchangeably, meaning, there’s only one pastoral office in the Bible. Yet we do see the apostles and the NT church arranging themselves as they see fit, for the sake of good order. So we do the same.

So do Baptists have bishops in a biblical sense? Yes, because they do have men occupying the pastoral office. And do they have bishops in a threefold office sense? Yes, I think so, if we consider what they may call a Senior Pastor. I know they can have deacons. But if your primary goal is to poke at the KJV only idea — fair enough!