Women's school now accepting men

[RoBo1988]

And don't you dare use the wrong pronouns...

Women’s school that accepts men seemingly threatens to punish those who mock ‘pronoun policy’

The school asked faculty members to report any ‘open mocking of our Pronoun Policy or an individual's choice of pronouns.’

www.campusreform.org

 

[RileyG]

That’s their choice. I don’t know how you can enforce not mocking pronouns.

 

[PloverWing]

Honestly, if you don't like trans and nonbinary people, you aren't going to be happy at a place like Mount Holyoke. Pick a different college to apply to. There are many other schools in the country you can choose from.

I'm more familiar with Smith than with Mount Holyoke, because my daughter went to Smith, but I think the two schools have a similar culture. They're both women's liberal arts colleges in western Massachusetts, and they're two of the Seven Sisters. Smith is very accepting of its LGBT students. When you introduce yourself to people at Smith, it's customary to give your name and your pronouns: "I'm Jane Doe, and I use they/them pronouns." "I'm Sally Jones, and I use she/her pronouns." And people respect whatever pronouns you've named. That's the culture. I think the culture at Mount Holyoke is similar. If you like that culture, great. If you don't like that culture, you'd be happier at a different school.

 

[RileyG]

Honestly, if you don't like trans and nonbinary people, you aren't going to be happy at a place like Mount Holyoke. Pick a different college to apply to. There are many other schools in the country you can choose from.

I'm more familiar with Smith than with Mount Holyoke, because my daughter went to Smith, but I think the two schools have a similar culture. They're both women's liberal arts colleges in western Massachusetts, and they're two of the Seven Sisters. Smith is very accepting of its LGBT students. When you introduce yourself to people at Smith, it's customary to give your name and your pronouns: "I'm Jane Doe, and I use they/them pronouns." "I'm Sally Jones, and I use she/her pronouns." And people respect whatever pronouns you've named. That's the culture. I think the culture at Mount Holyoke is similar. If you like that culture, great. If you don't like that culture, you'd be happier at a different school.

Fair enough.

Pronouns? I assume that’s relatively recent custom. It wasn’t all that big until a few years ago.

 

[PloverWing]

Pronouns? I assume that’s relatively recent custom. It wasn’t all that big until a few years ago.

I think so, yes. My experience with Smith was about 10 years ago.

 

[RileyG]

I think so, yes. My experience with Smith was about 10 years ago.

Ok. I can’t say I’m totally surprised.

 

[Servus]

"Women's school"? How dare anyone assume that school's gender

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Obviously it's their school, their rules, but I do find their statement to be a bit unique

May have just been quicker if they said "everything but regular cis males"

 

[PloverWing]

May have just been quicker if they said "everything but regular cis males"

To some extent, yes.

The Seven Sisters were founded to provide high-quality education to women, at a time when women were excluded from the nearby Ivy League colleges. The world has changed in the last century, and women are now permitted to study at most colleges and universities in the US. But sexism in our culture persists, in ways more subtle than its 19th-century manifestations. Some women find that they thrive better in schools where male students are not present, where the whole calculation of "I need to be assertive, or they'll talk over me, but not too assertive, because then I'm not likable enough, and if I wear a dress to that meeting will they assume I'm the secretary instead of the engineer" -- that whole mess, which is in our heads all the time, can just be set aside, and we don't have to think about it while we're trying to learn calculus.

Trans women and nonbinary people are in some ways like cis women in their experiences of the world, and in other ways are different. If you were socialized male when growing up, that's different from being socialized female. On the other hand, being outside of cis male norms is a similar experience. Five of the original Seven Sisters are still women's colleges, and the question they've been working through in the last decade is whether the inclusion of trans women and nonbinary people will still give them the community they're trying to create. All five seem to have decided on, as you say, everyone except cis men and trans men.

I learned a lot from my experience with Smith. When I was younger, my image of women's colleges was that they were for students who followed proper female gender norms, and I didn't want any of that; I chose a coed college for myself. But when my daughter went to Smith, I discovered that the students were throwing gender norms out the window. And of course: in the 19th century, going to college at all was rebelling against gender norms. So as long as you're already in that mindset, you have some common ground with people who are so gender-diverse that they identify as trans or nonbinary.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

To some extent, yes.

The Seven Sisters were founded to provide high-quality education to women, at a time when women were excluded from the nearby Ivy League colleges. The world has changed in the last century, and women are now permitted to study at most colleges and universities in the US. But sexism in our culture persists, in ways more subtle than its 19th-century manifestations. Some women find that they thrive better in schools where male students are not present, where the whole calculation of "I need to be assertive, or they'll talk over me, but not too assertive, because then I'm not likable enough, and if I wear a dress to that meeting will they assume I'm the secretary instead of the engineer" -- that whole mess, which is in our heads all the time, can just be set aside, and we don't have to think about it while we're trying to learn calculus.

Trans women and nonbinary people are in some ways like cis women in their experiences of the world, and in other ways are different. If you were socialized male when growing up, that's different from being socialized female. On the other hand, being outside of cis male norms is a similar experience. Five of the original Seven Sisters are still women's colleges, and the question they've been working through in the last decade is whether the inclusion of trans women and nonbinary people will still give them the community they're trying to create. All five seem to have decided on, as you say, everyone except cis men and trans men.

I learned a lot from my experience with Smith. When I was younger, my image of women's colleges was that they were for students who followed proper female gender norms, and I didn't want any of that; I chose a coed college for myself. But when my daughter went to Smith, I discovered that the students were throwing gender norms out the window. And of course: in the 19th century, going to college at all was rebelling against gender norms. So as long as you're already in that mindset, you have some common ground with people who are so gender-diverse that they identify as trans or nonbinary.

Based on their description, it sounds like transmen could still be allowed as they're (from a sex perspective) female, which was the first category they list.

It also raises the question, what to do about non-binary people who identify as "gender fluid" meaning the the gender they identify as can change. If a male happens to be identifying as a woman in the first semester, and in the second semester, identifies as a man. A male identifying as a man is a cis man, and they're now no longer in the "criteria" laid out by the school. (unless they're giving people retroactive credits for prior non-conformity)
Are cis men (who perhaps identified as women before) allowed in?

It also does raise the question of what kind of supplemental system they'll have in place, to make sure people aren't abusing the primary system. For instance, a male, who largely presents as male, but identifies themselves as non-binary. Given that it's become considered un-PC/"offensive" to even suggest that someone may be doing it for ulterior motives, I'm not sure how they'd preserve the integrity of what they're trying to accomplish without some way to prevent people "taking advantage of the system". For instance, if I wanted to go to that college, and met the academic requirements, but just presented as I do now (looking like a regular dude), but said "I'm non-binary" just to pass admissions, what would be their system for making sure I wouldn't be able to do that sort of thing?


At what point (meaning, how many other marginalized groups need to be included) does it stop being a "women's college", at start being more of a "college for the marginalized"...meaning, college that's just seeking to exclude people who exist in too many of the Cartesian products of the intersectionality Venn diagram?

 

[bèlla]

What a confusing world. With the proliferation of online education parent's are better off pursuing alternative avenues of instruction. You'd be hard pressed to come out with your head on straight unless your time in the system is limited.

~bella

 

[PloverWing]

It also does raise the question of what kind of supplemental system they'll have in place, to make sure people aren't abusing the primary system.

It's a legitimate question. I'm guessing that they explore a bit of this in the admissions interview, with questions like "Why is the women's college experience important to you?", but that's just a guess.

 

[RileyG]

To some extent, yes.

The Seven Sisters were founded to provide high-quality education to women, at a time when women were excluded from the nearby Ivy League colleges. The world has changed in the last century, and women are now permitted to study at most colleges and universities in the US. But sexism in our culture persists, in ways more subtle than its 19th-century manifestations. Some women find that they thrive better in schools where male students are not present, where the whole calculation of "I need to be assertive, or they'll talk over me, but not too assertive, because then I'm not likable enough, and if I wear a dress to that meeting will they assume I'm the secretary instead of the engineer" -- that whole mess, which is in our heads all the time, can just be set aside, and we don't have to think about it while we're trying to learn calculus.

Trans women and nonbinary people are in some ways like cis women in their experiences of the world, and in other ways are different. If you were socialized male when growing up, that's different from being socialized female. On the other hand, being outside of cis male norms is a similar experience. Five of the original Seven Sisters are still women's colleges, and the question they've been working through in the last decade is whether the inclusion of trans women and nonbinary people will still give them the community they're trying to create. All five seem to have decided on, as you say, everyone except cis men and trans men.

I learned a lot from my experience with Smith. When I was younger, my image of women's colleges was that they were for students who followed proper female gender norms, and I didn't want any of that; I chose a coed college for myself. But when my daughter went to Smith, I discovered that the students were throwing gender norms out the window. And of course: in the 19th century, going to college at all was rebelling against gender norms. So as long as you're already in that mindset, you have some common ground with people who are so gender-diverse that they identify as trans or nonbinary.

That's a very interesting perspective.

Would that include excluding cis gay men? They're not the normal male experience, either. But we are getting off topic.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And don't you dare use the wrong pronouns...

Women’s school that accepts men seemingly threatens to punish those who mock ‘pronoun policy’

The school asked faculty members to report any ‘open mocking of our Pronoun Policy or an individual's choice of pronouns.’

www.campusreform.org

.... hmmm. I see the job market is even tighter than I previously thought ....

 

[RileyG]

.... hmmm. I see the job market is even tighter than I previously thought ....

Even in retail and some public schools, you must use the correct pronouns, or it's considered harassment.

Most businesses, from my perspective, seem to have a rather liberal outlook.

 

[bèlla]

Even in retail and some public schools, you must use the correct pronouns, or it's considered harassment.

Most businesses, from my perspective, seem to have a rather liberal outlook.

Remember the GameStop fiasco a few years ago? That's when it started.

~bella

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Even in retail and some public schools, you must use the correct pronouns, or it's considered harassment.

Most businesses, from my perspective, seem to have a rather liberal outlook.

That's good news since I'm looking for a job. I can always put on a Copernican wig and they'll never discern the difference.

 

[RileyG]

Remember the GameStop fiasco a few years ago? That's when it started.

~bella

Not even before then? Interesting.

 

[RileyG]

That's good news since I'm looking for a job. I can always put on a Copernican wig and they'll never discern the difference.

I just try to be respectful of others and don't question their personal lives.

It's none of my business.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I just try to be respectful of others and don't question their personal lives.

It's none of my business.

That's usually the best way to go with it, reflecting something I read somewhere by someone about something related to snakes and doves.