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Eschatology: The "Left Behind" narrative is unbiblical

tdidymas

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The real tragedy is the extent to which people worry about the rapture rather than their own repentance. Thus we have mainline Christians who are taught to embrace and be proud of sin, in the month of June, for example, pride and sodomy are promoted, while, tragically, among Christians who still understand what is sinful, many of them are being distracted from the remembrance of their own sins and from repentance by the eschatological errors of Chiliasm, which the Nicene Creed actually repudiates by design when it declares of Christ that His “Kingdom shall have no end,” but which was reintroduced to the community of Nicene Christians by the popularization of John Nelson Darby’s doctrine of premillenial dispensationalism.
Premillenial dispensationalism may be error, or may not be. Nonetheless, it is not the cause of the apostasy of the churches. The real cause is spiritual laziness, ignorance of scripture, and making friends of the world. Apostasy causes can also be seen in Rev. ch. 2-3.

In regard to eschatology and the many controversial ideas, every construct has pet verses to support their chronology, and avoid any scripture that seems to conflict with their idea. It's an easy temptation to yield to, to judge others based on their eschatology, calling it error. No one has a handle on eschatology, I think we can safely say.
 
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The Liturgist

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"The real tragedy" - sure sounded like it.

No, the tragedy is that among Christians who still recognize what is a sin, they are distracted by eschatological speculations motivated by concepts unknown in the Church before John Nelson Darby introduced them in the 19th century as part of his novel “premillenial dispensationalism”, introduced in the context of the restorationist Plymouth Brethren, a denomination known for innovation and for underemphasizing the value of repentance among its own members in favor of a holier-than-thou disposition regarding the outside world, based on an extreme triumphalism, particularly among the Closed Brethren with which John Nelson Darby was affiliated.

Thus, the eschatological speculations of Christians distracted by his eschatological innovation distract them from the task of repentance, the very idea of which is downplayed as “works righteousness” despite the fact that St. Paul wrote that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and likened the Christian life to a race, that is to say, a struggle to resist sin, and warned that various categories of unrepentant sinners, not limited to sodomy but also including many sins that the decision of the mainline churches to embrace sexual immorality and pride has distracted attention away from. Thus, we speculate about the Rapture and about the details of a future tribulation, and who will be taken up, and how, and when, and what will become of those “left behind” and what nations will make war on what other nations corresponding to Gog and Magog, which are, I propose, idle speculations, for we cannot fully know until these events have happened, and also since none of us knows when Christ will return, whether it will be tomorrow or a hundred trillion years hence, or any other future time you can think of, instead of focusing on praying to God to forgive our sins and asking for God the Holy Spirit and our angels to assist us in resisting the temptation to engage in them, we instead have churches that take the time that should be spent on that part of the Gospel, which is asking for the forgiveness that Christ promises we will receive if we ask for it, and also in forgiving others who have sinned against us, and asking God’s forgiveness for those occasions when we have failed by not immediately seeking the forgiveness of others, or indeed in presuming moral superiority, which to be clear, I do not presume; I am not by any means claiming I am morally superior to John Nelson Darby, for I have no doubt he was a more decent man than myself; I object only to his erroneous teaching and the adverse affect it has had on the life of the faithful.

The essential reality of why eschatological speculation of the sort promoted by Premillenial Dispensationalism is a spiritual distraction and has become unhealthy for Christians is that we will face the judgement of Christ Pantocrator following our death, unless Christ comes before our death, but since so many things can happen that will kill us, we must prepare for to face Christ on that basis, with the knowledge that we ourselves could die tomorrow, perhaps die an hour before his return, but the effect would ultimately be the same, for we will be judged by Him regardless. This is why we should repent of our sins rather than focusing on eschatological speculation, particularly of the sort encouraged by premillenial dispensationalism, which seems to, with its concept of the Rapture and a pre-millenial tribulation, arouse a certain morbid curiosity which manifests itself in the success of works like Left Behind, the writings of preachers of that inclination such as Rev. Hal Lindsay, and in other respects.

That is the real tragedy, that those Christians, particularly in Protestant Christianity, since premillenial dispensationalism has been condemned by the Eastern churches and Eastern Christians are blessed with a unique ability to resist adverse change, so while on occasion, bad decisions have been made, usually they are resisted (for example, the bishops at the Council of Florence voted to subordinate the Eastern Orthodox to the Pope, with the noteworthy exception of St. Mark of Ephesus, but the people resisted and prevented the implementation of the council, knowing that this would mean the probable fall of the Byzantine Empire to the Turks, sacrificing their personal freedom for the preservation of the Orthodox Christian Faith as they had received it. And they endured three hundred years of oppression, and the so far permanent loss of Asia Minor (also known as the Anatolian Peninsula) and some portions of Europe to the Muslims, but in return were blessed with many crowns of martyrdom and the preservation of the central stability of their faith, which we have lost in the West as a result of the mainline churches, for reasons obviously unrelated to Premillenial Dispensationalism, since obviously, premillenial dispensationalism had nothing to do with the rise of of the liberal movement within the mainline Protestant churches, for indeed during the lifetime of John Nelson Darby, liberal Christianity was being invented by the Unitarians and the Universalist Church, which would later merger in the US to form the UUA, and become almost entirely apostate, with the exception of a few parishes which continue to practice an heretical non-Trinitarian degenerate form of Christianity, but unfortunately liberal Christianity would not be contained there, but would infect the entire Western Church, taking root in Roman Catholicism and in all of the branches of Protestantism.

This is why I am particularly surprised that I had to write this post explaining my earlier post, because to me, the idea that premillenial dispensationalism, for all of its faults, caused the disaster that is the fall of the mainline churches is a complete non-sequitur, and I had assumed, which is so often a bad idea, but I had nonetheless ill-advisedly assumed in error that my fellow members on this forum would understand that the “real tragedy” I was referring to was not that premillenial dispensationalism caused the disastrous embrace of pride and sexual immorality by the mainline churches, but was rather the extent to which conservative Protestants who have correctly resisted this embrace of the world by the mainline churches are, owing to a popular morbid fascination with the End Times, allowing themselves to be distracted from the work of repentance, and even marketed to (Left Behind has made its authors and many publishers and persons in the motion picture industry, not all of whom have motives driven purely by Christian piety, but in some cases could be, knowing Hollywood, motivatved purely by pecuniary considerations, as Hollywood has frequently aggressively marketed to Christians throughout its entire history, since Christianity is the largest religion in the world and by far the largest in the United States, and indeed the marketing teams for some films which are theologically … questionable, to put it mildly, such as Evan Almighty, made a specific effort to reach out to Christian churches.

Eschatology applies to all of us in the same way, in that Christ will sit in judgement over all of us as Pantocrator, and this is the case regardless of when He comes, what the rapture consists of, whether the early church with the Nicene Creed was correct or the modern day Chiliasts are correct and his reign will be forever or limited to a thousand years, and other issues. Thus, regardless of how we feel about the idea of the Temple being rebuilt and animal sacrifices being resumed during a hypothetical future millenial Kingdom, the New Testament makes it clear that we must repent and focus on doing those things Christ taught us to do.

Now, to be clear, I am not accusing anyone in this thread of overly concentrating on eschatology, rather, I am merely seeking to make a point that this is happening, and we ought to be trying to put out the fire of an excessive fascination with what are, I think, in terms of Christian salvation, secondary details about the return of Christ and the Last Judgement, because the primary things to remember are that Christ will return, and we will see Him, and be judged by HIm, whether or not we are around when He returns in glory or whether we die beforehand, and so it behooves us to repent and with great humility, encourage others who seek to follow Christ to repent as well, without claiming moral superiority over them.

There is also the important point that many non-Christians and apostates claim that the focus in evangelical churches on eschatology, driven by premillenial dispensationalism and works of this sort like Left Behind, the deceptively titled “King James Study Bible” which was given to me as a gift many years ago but which is also still available for sale, now with color illustrations, but which does not contain the entire text of the King James Bible, nor does it contain any Anglicans or members of the Church of Scotland, and there are many traditional Christians of conservative faith left in the Church of England, and even in the Episcopal Church USA, and also in the Continuing Anglican churches and ACNA, and in the Church of Scotland there are still some traditional Christians as well, and the King James Bible was originally made the Authorized Version by King James I of England and VII of Scotland in order to have one Bible for the two realms over which he was king, where previously the Presbyterians who controlled the Church of Scotland and their allies who wished to convert the Church of England to the same system had preferred the Geneva Bible, which featured traditional Calvinist commentary (likewise, the Roman Catholic Douai-Rheims features Roman Catholic doctrinal commentary), and the Anglican Bishops’ Bible did not, but was not trusted or accepted by the Presbyterians, probably because of the name, since they rejected the order of Bishops institutionally; the KJV is really an improved version of the Bishops’ Bible, but the wording is similar, so the translators of the KJV were essentially revising the former to improve its accuracy by comparing it with more sources, and it did include those books which the Anglicans call the Apocrypha, because they use them for moral instruction, but not as sources of doctrine, under the 39 Articles, particularly in the Divine Office of Morning and Evening Prayer (Mattins and Evensong). I don’t see how a book can be advertised as a KJV Study Bible while omitting those books, with a mere few pages dedicated to the concept, rejected by a majority of Christians (that is to say, by Roman Catholics, Anglicans and Orthodox Christians, who collectively outnumber Presbyterians, Baptists and other low church Protestants who doctrinally reject the Deuterocanonical books as a matter of dogmatic principle, despite their use in the early church; actually on this point I agree with the Ethiopian Orthodox, who alone include 1 Enoch in their Bible; everyone else excludes it, despite the fact that it is quoted in the Epistle of St. Jude, but I digress; the problem here is that the Western Church almost exclusively uses Antiochene literal-historical hermeneutics or a liberal reaction to them of extreme anti-literalism, whereas in the East both the Antiochene and the Alexandrian method of a more metaphorical approach are used together in a Christological-typological-prophetic method, which best fulfills the point made by Christ our True God at the end of the Gospel according to Luke, where he showed the disciples how all the books of the Law and the Prophets spoke about Him.

This segue takes us to my concluding criticism of Left Behind and of Premillenial Dispensationalism and the popular fascination with an erroneous eschatology that it engenders, that being that it does not treat the prophecies of the end times in a sufficiently Christological, Incarnational or Trinitarian manner. It is not sufficiently clear in the works of Premillenial Dispensationalists that Jesus Christ is God, coequal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and the prophecies of the End TImes starting in the Old Testament and continuing right through the Apocalypse of St. John (Revelation) are not read in a sufficiently Christological matter. Not enough weight is placed on the point, depressing though it may be, that we will, regardless of whether or not we are alive when Christ returns, be judged by Him in the same manner. Ecclesiastes shows us that everything worldly is ultimately vanity; the Word of God became flesh and in the person of Jesus Christ, showed us that He was willing, as our creator, to condescend to become a part of our creation so as to liberate us from the endless evil and vanity that King Solomon realized dominated worldliness in Ecclesiastes, but not through the Escapism of the Gnostics, but through repentence and the redemption of our own flesh, so that we would be resurrected and raised incorruptible. So the outcome is the same whether we are alive when Christ returns or not. We will either be forgiven and spend an eternity with Christ in the light of the World to Come, or we will be condemned, for our own sake, and at our own desire, to the Outer Darkness, lest we be tormented by the Wrath of God, which is the experience of His Love by those people who have aligned themselves against Him, and thus experience His presence as an intolerable torment, for God is a burning fire, according to scripture.

I encourage members so inclined to check everything I have read against Scripture, and against the faith of the Nicene Church as expressed by St. Athanasius of Alexandria, St. Basil. St. Gregory Nazianzus, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Ephrem the Syrian, whether you agree with them or not (because if you disagree with the fourth century church fathers, then you can know the extent to which I might inadvertently fail to reliably repeat their doctrine).
 
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The Old Maid

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originally posted by THE LITURGIST:



"Not enough weight is placed on the point, depressing though it may be, that we will, regardless of whether or not we are alive when Christ returns, be judged by Him in the same manner."


Agreed. Some believers are more focused on the Second Coming than on the First Coming, even though the First Coming is the only one we can do anything about. Incarnation, Crucifixion, Resurrection. That comes first.

And yet the Left Behind books are still gathering readers (and fans) 25 years after first publication. By setting the story to the tune of fiction the authors have made it far more durable. The result is:

Five films (so far);
A videogame (circa 2006); and
[ahem]
an internet Left Behind Top Ten list, containing representative dialogue, series concepts, and minor characters.
(Only minor characters, because readers identify with the major characters, thus making it more difficult to examine what those characters teach. Example: "Hey, I'm a stay-at-home mom like Major Character, you know.")

So why do readers look to this series? Each person has a reason, ranging from the adventure to the mysteries. But in answer to your observation, I wonder if it's about the novels' teachings that believers need not be Judged. They can have proof that they are saved, and furthermore can prove to others that they are saved.

In the novels:

1. Raptured people clearly are saved.
2. If a person misses the Rapture and goes alive into Tribulation, then that person can get a Saved Seal that other believers can see. Clearly, Saved.
3. If a person is born after the Rapture yet is too young to get a Saved Seal, then that person can live past their Legal Adult birthday, their Majority birthday. There are no unsaved adults in the Millennial Kingdom. Every one of those dies on their Legal Adult birthday.

And none of these saved people experience Judgment. Well, the Raptured go through a Bema Seat judgment. Believers see the rewards bestowed upon other believers. ("He gets two crowns. You get one. Read a book on Sunday. Skipped church on Super Bowl Sunday." That sort of thing.)

The various proofs offered by the Left Behind series can be very appealing. In this life, we don't get that kind of certainty. The closest thing we can get to knowing if other people are saved is a 2021 quote from the late Alex Trebek:

"Don't tell me what you believe in. I'll observe how you behave and I will make my own determination."
 
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RandyPNW

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The "left behind" narrative appears to conflict with scripture. It places the "rapture" before the antichrist is revealed, but 2 Thes. 2:3 clearly places the "rapture" (1st resurrection) AFTER the antichrist is revealed.

This issue came up when I read a statement by (the very respected and knowledgeable) David Jeremiah: "No, the Bible does not tell us who the Antichrist will be. In fact, Paul tells us in the second chapter of [2] Thessalonians that this coming world ruler will not be revealed until after the Rapture of the church. 'So if you ever reach the point where you think you know who he is, that must mean you have been left behind.'" (quoting Tim LaHaye, and agreeing). Quoted from "The Book of Signs," p. 248.

But that scripture clearly states the opposite (2 Thes. 2:3) "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed..."
"That day" is referring to v. 1 "the coming of our Lord and our gathering together to Him" (i.e., the "rapture", or the 1 Cor. 15 resurrection.
"the man of lawlessness" is obviously referring to The Antichrist (which is the beast of Rev. 13).

Before vs. after - can anyone explain this conflict?

I'm a skeptic when it comes to constructed chronologies of eshcatology. I would like to believe in the Pre-trib idea, but I'm having a rough time with it. I haven't found anything anywhere that adequately explains this conflict. All I've seen so far is assertions and opinions. Can anyone help?
I haven't read through this thread yet--I just saw it. However, I can answer the question since I've been interested in biblical prophecy since as far back as I can remember--more seriously since about 1972.

People always get enthused over the prospect of knowing the future. And yet Israel was warned against things like crystal-ball reading. Nevertheless, we are given, by God, a certain amount of knowledge about the future--it is, in fact, necessary.

The predominant poisition in history is, I think, Postribulationism, the belief that Christ comes once, in only one stage, to destroy the Antichrist and to save the Church. That view has been challenged in various ways in history, but without really establishing a significant school of prophecy anywhere near to the Dispensationalism of John N. Darby, which is Pretribulationism.

Where did Darby get this from? He apparently established it as a theological system on his own, but has looked at various views in history that were a bit ambiguous over the issue of preventing the Church from suffering Gods' Wrath in the last times. So he proceeded to separate Christ's Coming into 2 stages, one prior to God's Wrath, and the other at the conclusion of God's Wrath.

The strong element in Darby's theology, however, came from his renewing of Premillennialism, which had suffered a setback early in Christian history. The thought early on was that an age of fulfillment was promised for Israel, and that eventually the Jews would look to Jesus as their Messiah.

Since this never happened, and Jews have always remained, as a people overall, intransigent to converstion to Jesus, the Church largely turned from Premillennialism to Amillennialism, discounting any sense of a future age of Jewish conversion. But there had been doubts about whether the Jews were stuck in rebelliion forever, and some thought the idea of Jewish conversion was still feasible.

Ribera and Lucanza were two Catholic priests who struck out in defense against the Pope being identified as an Antichrist, and so began to project a future Antichrist, instead of identifying Antichrist as a past or present Pope. It was just a little further and Darby projected not just a future Antichrist but also a future conversion of Israel.

This "Futurism" is what characterized Dispensationalism, but Darby added the element of the Church's deliverance frorm God's Wrath, which he identified with a 7 year period of Antichrist's rule. As for me, I don't identify Antichrist's Reign as "God's Wrath," and at any rate do not discount all of the problems of Armageddon with an attack on Christianity by God! When people die in an ungodly war, they are victims--not targets!

Neither do I see the reign of Antichrist as any more than 3.5 years. I hardly think a "Tribulation Church" can arise out of nowhere, after a supposed "Pretrib Rapture," and suddenly mature to the point of dying for Christ in a 3.5 year period! ;)

Anyway, 2 Thes 2 does indicate that Christ returns for the Church at the same time he comes to destroy Antichrist. And Dan 7, which is the lone Scripture passage with any detail of Antichrist, indicates Christ comes with the clouds of heaven to establish his Kingdom.

This is the blueprint of NT eschatology. The Olivet Discourse focuses largely on the 70 AD destruction of the temple and Israel's age of punishment. But that Discourse does not disagree with the Postribulational outlook as I've laid forth.
 
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The Liturgist

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The strong element in Darby's theology, however, came from his renewing of Premillennialism, which had suffered a setback early in Christian history.

More than a setback. Chiliasm was determined to be completely wrong at the divinely inspired Second Ecumenical Synod in Constantinople, the same one that produced the current recension of the Symbol of Faith (the Nicene Creed), and indeed the clause “Whose kingdom shall have no end,” referring to our Lord, was included specifically to refute the idea that our Lord would only rule for a thousand years, which had been a doctrine embraced by the Apollinarians, who denied the Incarnation in a big way by blasphemously asserting, contrary to Scripture, that our Lord had a human body but a divine soul. This doctrine of Apollinarius, who stressed premillenialism far more than any of the ante-Nicene fathers had, caused people, very wisely, to think about what the original Scripture meant.

Of course now there are many Chiliasts and adherents of related doctrines who also confess the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, without paying much attention to the clause “whose kingdom shall have no end.” And indeed, some might arguably be correct vis a vis the Symbol of Faith provided they do not assert that the Kingdom of our Lord will end after the initial thousand years.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Agreed. Some believers are more focused on the Second Coming than on the First Coming, even though the First Coming is the only one we can do anything about. Incarnation, Crucifixion, Resurrection. That comes first.

And yet the Left Behind books are still gathering readers (and fans) 25 years after first publication. By setting the story to the tune of fiction the authors have made it far more durable. The result is:

Five films (so far);
A videogame (circa 2006); and
[ahem]
an internet Left Behind Top Ten list, containing representative dialogue, series concepts, and minor characters.
(Only minor characters, because readers identify with the major characters, thus making it more difficult to examine what those characters teach. Example: "Hey, I'm a stay-at-home mom like Major Character, you know.")

So why do readers look to this series? Each person has a reason, ranging from the adventure to the mysteries. But in answer to your observation, I wonder if it's about the novels' teachings that believers need not be Judged. They can have proof that they are saved, and furthermore can prove to others that they are saved.

In the novels:

1. Raptured people clearly are saved.
2. If a person misses the Rapture and goes alive into Tribulation, then that person can get a Saved Seal that other believers can see. Clearly, Saved.
3. If a person is born after the Rapture yet is too young to get a Saved Seal, then that person can live past their Legal Adult birthday, their Majority birthday. There are no unsaved adults in the Millennial Kingdom. Every one of those dies on their Legal Adult birthday.

And none of these saved people experience Judgment. Well, the Raptured go through a Bema Seat judgment. Believers see the rewards bestowed upon other believers. ("He gets two crowns. You get one. Read a book on Sunday. Skipped church on Super Bowl Sunday." That sort of thing.)

The various proofs offered by the Left Behind series can be very appealing. In this life, we don't get that kind of certainty. The closest thing we can get to knowing if other people are saved is a 2021 quote from the late Alex Trebek:

"Don't tell me what you believe in. I'll observe how you behave and I will make my own determination."
Regarding the rapture, and those who will be left behind, Jesus makes that distinction crystal clear in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

There are two groups cited in Rev 3:10. "You" is a reference to believers, and "those" is a reference to unbelievers (cited in full as "those who dwell on the earth.") Let's look at some Trib-related verses with that description. You will see that, in the Trib, unbelievers (those who are left behind upon the rapture) are cited as "those who dwell on the earth."

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Rev 11:10 (ESV): Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those dwell on the earth?" ----- Again, "those who dwell on the earth" during the Trib, are unbelievers.

We believers will not enter the Trib. Jesus said so in Rev 3:10.
 
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All Becomes New

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One passage against the Rapture. All I need is this one.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
"It is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering, since it is just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels, when he takes vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious strength on that day when he comes to be glorified by his saints and to be marveled at by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed."

These in Thessolanika, whom Paul is writing to, it says will be around until Christ returns "to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us."

It does not get any clearer than that. While people like to talk about the rapture and such, this is never discussed in the Bible as being a separate event from the Lord's return.

I invite any Dispensationalist to exegete this passage. But I will not be looking at any other scripture about this. That is the challenge.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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One passage against the Rapture. All I need is this one.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
"It is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering, since it is just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels, when he takes vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious strength on that day when he comes to be glorified by his saints and to be marveled at by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed."

These in Thessolanika, whom Paul is writing to, it says will be around until Christ returns "to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us."

It does not get any clearer than that. While people like to talk about the rapture and such, this is never discussed in the Bible as being a separate event from the Lord's return.

I invite any Dispensationalist to exegete this passage. But I will not be looking at any other scripture about this. That is the challenge.
Let's have the Bible separate the 2A (2nd Advent) from the rapture.

Acts 1:11 is a prophecy about Jesus' next return. It's about "the way" Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9-10. Jesus was only in the presence of His disciples. He therefore ascended in the view of believers, only. That is the way He ascended. There is only one verse that will do the reverse, where Jesus will descend in the view of believers, only: 1 Th 4:17. 1 Cor 15:52 only aligns with 1 Th 4:16-17. Therefore, having been transformed into our eternal bodies, we will only go next to Heaven. That means about two billion believers will arrive in Heaven at the same time.

My friend, in the 2A, Jesus is on clouds and in view of a world full of unbelievers (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). Therefore, the 2A, cannot be Jesus' next return, per Acts 1:11.

In the rapture, in 1 Th 4:17, we must pass through heavenly clouds before we will be able to see Jesus. That means Jesus is hidden by those same clouds from the unbelieving world below. If we can't see Jesus until we pass through those heavenly clouds, the unbelieving world surely will not be able to see Him.

After we are gathered in Heaven. Jesus will fulfill Acts 1:11. He will descend in the view of about two billion believers, only.

What a blessed and joyous moment!
 
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All Becomes New

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Let's have the Bible separate the 2A (2nd Advent) from the rapture.

Acts 1:11 is a prophecy about Jesus' next return. It's about "the way" Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9-10. Jesus was only in the presence of His disciples. He therefore ascended in the view of believers, only. That is the way He ascended. There is only one verse that will do the reverse, where Jesus will descend in the view of believers, only: 1 Th 4:17. 1 Cor 15:52 only aligns with 1 Th 4:16-17. Therefore, having been transformed into our eternal bodies, we will only go next to Heaven. That means about two billion believers will arrive in Heaven at the same time.

My friend, in the 2A, Jesus is on clouds and in view of a world full of unbelievers (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). Therefore, the 2A, cannot be Jesus' next return, per Acts 1:11.

In the rapture, in 1 Th 4:17, we must pass through heavenly clouds before we will be able to see Jesus. That means Jesus is hidden by those same clouds from the unbelieving world below. If we can't see Jesus until we pass through those heavenly clouds, the unbelieving world surely will not be able to see Him.

After we are gathered in Heaven. Jesus will fulfill Acts 1:11. He will descend in the view of about two billion believers, only.

What a blessed and joyous moment!

Disqualified.

The challenge is to exegete the passage I gave. I will not engage with these unclear passages about the rapture.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Disqualified.

The challenge is to exegete the passage I gave. I will not engage with these unclear passages about the rapture.

Acts 1:9-11 are very clear. Jesus must NEXT return only in the view of believers, as that is "the way" He ascended. That prophecy can only be fulfilled by 1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:52. Those verses are fulfilled pre-Trib. How do we know that? Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the entire time he received his vision of Revelation. All of what John heard and saw in his vision was from one angel. John confirms that in his own words in Rev 22:8 (NIV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.
 
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All Becomes New

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Acts 1:9-11 are very clear. Jesus must NEXT return only in the view of believers, as that is "the way" He ascended. That prophecy can only be fulfilled by 1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:52. Those verses are fulfilled pre-Trib. How do we know that? Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the entire time he received his vision of Revelation. All of what John heard and saw in his vision was from one angel. John confirms that in his own words in Rev 22:8 (NIV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.

I said and repeated what the challenge is. 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10. That is what you need to exegete.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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I said and repeated what the challenge is. 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10. That is what you need to exegete.
They’re about Armageddon and Matt 25:31-46.

Now, you do an exegesis on Acts 1:9-11, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:16-17, Rev 4:1 and Rev 22:8.

Thank you.
 
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All Becomes New

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They’re about Armageddon and Matt 25:31-46.

Now, you exegete Acts 1:9-11, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:16-17, Rev 4:1 and Rev 22:8.

Thank you.

That's not exegesis. That is doing a perspective summary of the passage. Have you never seen someone exegete a passage before? Exegete is to look at each sentence or paragraph and explain what the text is saying. You did not do that.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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That's not exegesis. That is doing a perspective summary of the passage. Have you never seen someone exegete a passage before? Exegete is to look at each sentence or paragraph and explain what the text is saying. You did not do that.
I explained the meaning of those passages. That is exegesis. You are dodging the truth in Acts 1:9-11, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:16-17, Rev 4:1 and Rev 22:8.
 
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All Becomes New

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I explained the meaning of those passages. That is exegesis. You are dodging the truth in Acts 1:9-11, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:16-17, Rev 4:1 and Rev 22:8.

And is Paul talking about the Church of Thessolanika?
 
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The Liturgist

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That's not exegesis. That is doing a perspective summary of the passage. Have you never seen someone exegete a passage before? Exegete is to look at each sentence or paragraph and explain what the text is saying. You did not do that.

Well to be precise, exegesis is where one explains what the text is saying in the context of the rest of Scripture, whereas eisegesis is where one reads a single verse in isolation in a manner that contradicts other verses, for example, the way some advocates of Nuda Scriptura and also some extreme anti-Roman Catholics will read Mark 7:13 out of its context re: Pharisaical Judaism while also ignoring verses such as 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Corinthians 11:2, Galatians 1:8-9 and other verses which lend themselves to the more traditional Sola Scriptura view of Lutherans and Anglicans and the Holy Tradition concept of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox. Indeed I would cite the misuse of Mark 7:13 as one of the ten most definitive examples of eisegesis in the New Testament.

@Ain't Zwinglian recently posted a thread for the discussion of the most frequentlt abused verses in Scriptire in Denomination Specific Theology which you might enjoy.

I do agree with you that the Rapture and the rest of the Left Behind story is absurd, and it is worth noting that even if we account for early church fathers who died long before the Second Ecumenical Synod, and whose views were not in alignment with the anti-Chiliasm that became official doctrine at that Synod in Constantinople in 381, as reflected in the Creed, there is no Patristic backing for nearly every aspect of the Rapture and Tribulation as depicted in Left Behind.
 
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exegesis is where one explains what the text is saying in the context of the rest of Scripture

Exegesis is when you say what a text means. No more, no less.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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I do agree with you that the Rapture and the rest of the Left Behind story is absurd,
Amen. Quite absurd. Such is....as when American Christianity went off the reservation of historical theology..
 
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