Ecclesiology; do you have bishops?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Saint Paul wrote a letter to the church in Philippi in which he speaks of the bishops and deacons in that church.

Philippians 1:1-2 KJV Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: (2) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.​

If you subscribe the KJV only theology I'd be interested to hear about your church's ecclesiology and what bishops you have. For those wo come from independent churches and free churches that do not have bishops I am curious to know how you see this passage. It is, of course, not the only passage mentioning bishops.

(1 Timothy 3:1 KJV) This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.​

​

(1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;​

​

(Titus 1:7 KJV) For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;​

​

(1 Peter 2:25 KJV) For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.​

 

[RandyPNW]

Saint Paul wrote a letter to the church in Philippi in which he speaks of the bishops and deacons in that church.

Philippians 1:1-2 KJV Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: (2) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.​

If you subscribe the KJV only theology I'd be interested to hear about your church's ecclesiology and what bishops you have. For those wo come from independent churches and free churches that do not have bishops I am curious to know how you see this passage. It is, of course, not the only passage mentioning bishops.

(1 Timothy 3:1 KJV) This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.​

​

(1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;​

​

(Titus 1:7 KJV) For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;​

​

(1 Peter 2:25 KJV) For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.​

Sadly, my own experience is lacking in the area of bishops, which I see as a kind of denominational leader above that of local pastor. Is that how you see them?

If so, I find it sad that I've spent many years in smaller churches whose relationship with denominational superintendants being very sketchy and limited. I think they can serve a much better purpose by being more involved in the ministry of local churches under their supervision.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Sadly, my own experience is lacking in the area of bishops, which I see as a kind of denominational leader above that of local pastor. Is that how you see them?

If so, I find it sad that I've spent many years in smaller churches whose relationship with denominational superintendants being very sketchy and limited. I think they can serve a much better purpose by being more involved in the ministry of local churches under their supervision.

Bishops are the pastors and teachers of the flock of God in their region (diocese) they exercise these roles and they also govern the church in their region. So, yes, they are supervisors but they are also teachers and pastors guiding the flock in the right way.

 

[Always in His Presence]

In the Pentecostal arena - Bishops (overseers) hold office in a number of different area's.

1. They are Elders in the Church and have distinct area's they are responsible for and oversee.
2. They are also called Executive Pastors who oversee day to day operations of a modern church.
3. They oversee Sunday School classes and Curriculum.

Often, when a church expands into multiple Campuses, the Lead or Senior Pastor become the overseer or "Bishop" of those churches he has founded.

In the Assemblies of God we also have Presbyters who function as overseers of a district, area or entire State.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In the Pentecostal arena - Bishops (overseers) hold office in a number of different area's.

1. They are Elders in the Church and have distinct area's they are responsible for and oversee.
2. They are also called Executive Pastors who oversee day to day operations of a modern church.
3. They oversee Sunday School classes and Curriculum.

Often, when a church expands into multiple Campuses, the Lead or Senior Pastor become the overseer or "Bishop" of those churches he has founded.

In the Assemblies of God we also have Presbyters who function as overseers of a district, area or entire State.

As you will have guessed, Catholics have Bishops to supervise a diocese, priests to preside in individual parishes, and deacons to assist priests.

 

[Always in His Presence]

As you will have guessed, Catholics have Bishops to supervise a diocese, priests to preside in individual parishes, and deacons to assist priests.

I do not have to guess - I grew up in the Roman Catholic Church - my father was a Seminarian until his late teen years and active in the Diaconate for most of his adult life.

 

[BobRyan]

Saint Paul wrote a letter to the church in Philippi in which he speaks of the bishops and deacons in that church.

Philippians 1:1-2 KJV Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: (2) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.​

If you subscribe the KJV only theology I'd be interested to hear about your church's ecclesiology and what bishops you have. For those wo come from independent churches and free churches that do not have bishops I am curious to know how you see this passage. It is, of course, not the only passage mentioning bishops.

(1 Timothy 3:1 KJV) This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.​

​

(1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;​

​

(Titus 1:7 KJV) For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;​

​

(1 Peter 2:25 KJV) For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.​

============from: https://gospelway.com/topics/church.... Their qualifications and work are identical.

Acts 20:17,28-30​

V17 -- Paul is addressing the elders of the Ephesian church.


V28 -- The Holy Spirit made them bishops (ASV; "overseers" -- KJV). Their job was to shepherd (NKJV; "feed"-- KJV; "tend" -- ASV) the flock. This uses the verb form of "pastor".


V29,30 -- Their duty to act as shepherds (pastors) is further described.


Clearly, all three terms are here used to describe the same men doing the same job in the local church.

Titus 1:5-9​

V5 -- Titus was told to appoint elders in every city.


Vv 6-9 -- Qualifications immediately follow for elders. We are told they must have these qualities "for" (because) bishops must be the kind of men described in the qualifications given.


"Clearly, the qualifications are being given for the one office being discussed, but the terms "elder" and "bishop" are here used interchangeably to refer to that office. Further, the work these men do is described in v9ff, and it is the same work Acts 20 said elders or bishops do, acting as shepherds (pastors) -- i.e., protect the flock from false teachers.

1 Peter 5:1-3​

V1 -- Peter is addressing elders.


V2 -- Their work is to shepherd (NKJV; "tend" -- ASV; "feed" -- KJV) the flock. Again, the verb form of "pastor" or shepherd is used. They also serve as overseers (NKJV; exercise or take the "oversight" -- ASV, KJV). This is the verb form of bishop.


"Clearly "elders," "pastors," and "bishops" in these passages are used interchangeably, referring to the same men in the same work. All three terms refer to an office in the local congregation, and are therefore identical in extent of jurisdiction (cf. Acts 20:17,28 to I Pet. 5:1-3; etc.). Their qualifications and work are identical.


"Interestingly, the footnote on 1 Timothy 3:1 in the St. Joseph New Catholic Edition of the Bible agrees that Paul made no distinction between elders and bishops: "Bishop: represents a Greek word meaning 'overseer,' and 'presbyter' another Greek word meaning 'elder.' In St. Paul 'bishop' and 'presbyter' seem to be used convertibly, and probably priests are here included under the term 'bishops.'"


"It is a mistake for denominations to distinguish the terms as if they apply to different offices.

 

[Always in His Presence]

"It is a mistake for denominations to distinguish the terms as if they apply to different offices.

QFT - well said.

 

[RandyPNW]

In the Pentecostal arena - Bishops (overseers) hold office in a number of different area's.

1. They are Elders in the Church and have distinct area's they are responsible for and oversee.
2. They are also called Executive Pastors who oversee day to day operations of a modern church.
3. They oversee Sunday School classes and Curriculum.

Often, when a church expands into multiple Campuses, the Lead or Senior Pastor become the overseer or "Bishop" of those churches he has founded.

In the Assemblies of God we also have Presbyters who function as overseers of a district, area or entire State

Yea, I don't know whether we call them Bishops or not. In our area we just call them Superintendants.

But the thought I have is that they supervise a region, as opposed to just a local church. I've attended AoG churches for years, but didn't become a member because of differences of doctrine I have. But when our church was splitting the only way I could vote to keep our pastor is by becoming a member, and I did.

We lost the pastor anyway, along with the board, and control of the whole church. We went back to a church controlled by the denomination until we could get settled again. How pathetic!

Sorry about the rant. I attempted to take some matters to the headquarters, or top leaders, but they tend not to respond to individuals. Hierarchies are a necessary "evil," in my opinion. We hate them, but we can't live without them--much like some marriages. (not mine)

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

"It is a mistake for denominations to distinguish the terms as if they apply to different offices.

That is what you say, and good for you that you say it, but it is not what the ancient churches have said for the past two thousand years.

 

[David Lamb]

Saint Paul wrote a letter to the church in Philippi in which he speaks of the bishops and deacons in that church.

Philippians 1:1-2 KJV Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: (2) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.​

If you subscribe the KJV only theology I'd be interested to hear about your church's ecclesiology and what bishops you have. For those wo come from independent churches and free churches that do not have bishops I am curious to know how you see this passage. It is, of course, not the only passage mentioning bishops.

(1 Timothy 3:1 KJV) This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.​

​

(1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;​

​

(Titus 1:7 KJV) For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;​

​

(1 Peter 2:25 KJV) For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.​

In the bible, the word translated "bishop" or "overseer" is used to refer to the pastor of a local church. The bible says nothing about someone having authority over a diocese or group of local churches, which is the way the English word "bishop" tends to be used today.

 

[Daniel9v9]

I have the joy of serving as a Bishop in the Lutheran Church (Independent Lutheran Diocese). However, it's good to appreciate that the Bible uses the words presbyteros (from which we get the word Priest) and episkopos (from which we get the word Bishop) interchangeably, which is to say that the Bible presents us with one pastoral office, which goes by different names, and one helper office, Deacon. And this twofold office, Bishops and Deacons, is also found very explicitly in the Didache, which is one of the earliest Christian writings we have outside of the Bible, and also appears in Clement and Polycarp. The third office of Bishop as something distinct and over the pastoral office is a later development. Now, for those who embrace an understanding of Holy Tradition, that's not a problem. But for those who hold that tradition must be governed by the Scriptures, God's Word, we confess one pastoral office (commonly translated as Overseer or Elder) and one helper office (Deacon), and we can see the requirements for these two offices in Paul's letter to Timothy, 1 Timothy 3:1-13.

Here's an example of how words for the pastoral office are used interchangeably:

Acts 20:17:
“Now from Miletus [Paul] sent to Ephesus and called the elders (presbyteros) of the church to come to him. And when they (the elders) came to him, he said to them: …”

Acts 20:28:
“Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers (episkopos), to care for the Church of God, which He obtained with His own blood.”

It's also good to take note of who are present at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:6; Acts 15:22).

The twofold office is also recognised by Jerome, who writes (Letter 146 — To Evangelus): "The apostle clearly teaches that Presbyters are the same as Bishops." And: “The elders always elected one from among themselves and placed him in a higher station, calling him bishop, just as an army would make a commander for itself. The deacons, moreover, may elect from among themselves one whom they know to be active and name him archdeacon. For with the exception of ordination, what does the bishop have that the elder does not?”

Finally, I can mention that Bellarmine recognised that the Bible uses the words for the pastoral office interchangeably, which is why he appeals to later tradition. And from a Roman Catholic standpoint, that's possible, but for those who hold to the Scriptures as the supreme authority, it's not possible.

So, in our church body, we hold that the office of Bishop is the same as that of Pastor (or Priest). The pastoral office is by divine right, but the office of Bishop as a governing role is man-made, not by divine right. It's essentially the same as a Senior Pastor, Superintendent, or District President. And the reason we have this is because we see throughout the New Testament that they used their freedom in Christ to govern themselves for the sake of good order, in accordance with God's Word. So, very simply, many Evangelical church bodies hold that hierarchy is not demanded by God, but is allowed. But those who hold to a belief in Holy Tradition (which may include some Evangelical bodies) believe that hierarchy is necessary.

Put short: The Bible gives us two offices, and this is what we see in the earliest writings outside of the Bible. But the third office developed very early in church history, and for those who believe in Holy Tradition appeal to that. My objection is that the development, although early, is not early enough. It's not in the Bible.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

the Bible uses the words presbyteros (from which we get the word Priest) and episkopos (from which we get the word Bishop) interchangeably, which is to say that the Bible presents us with one pastoral office

Not really, all it means is that a Bishop is also a Priest.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Not really, all it means is that a Bishop is also a Priest.

I figured someone would object to this, which is why I mentioned that both Jerome and Bellarmine recognise that the Bible uses the terms interchangeably.

Bellarmine writes [Loc. cit., chap. XV, 5, p.160]: "[St. John Chrysostom and many others] teach that at the time of the apostles those names, bishop and elder, were common to all priests, both the greater, whom we now call bishops, and the lesser, whom we call elders, although the offices themselves and their powers were distinct."

So he clearly understands that the words are interchangeable in the Bible. His position is that though the Bible uses the words interchangeably, the distinction is real, but he fails to find the distinction in the Bible itself because it doesn't exist. One difficulty he attempted to solve was Philippians 1:1, which reads "bishops" (or "overseers", episkopos), plural. He argues that there should only be one Bishop in Philippi, so he resorts to understanding Philippians 1:1 to mean "priests" (or "elders", presbyteros), precisely because the Bible uses the terms interchangeably. But that's not what the Bible says (it says episkopos and not presbyteros), and it's not helping his case that he has to resort to using the terms interchangeably in his own interpretation.

Here's a challenge for you: Can you find any criteria for Bishop apart from that of Priest in the Bible? And can you find any passages that describe how the office of Bishop is different from that of Priest? What kind of rights do a Bishop have that a Priest doesn't have according to the Bible?

I hope you see the problem I'm trying to demonstrate here because Bellarmine couldn't appeal to the Scriptures on these things which is why he appeals to Trent. And that's fine from a Roman Catholic standpoint given that the Roman Catholic Church receive Holy Tradition. But what I'm saying is that you'll be hard-pressed to argue for a threefold office from the Scriptures alone. And even if we consider tradition, we'll do well to bear in mind what the Didiache and Jerome say.

My point here is not to argue for argument's sake, or to attack the Roman Catholic Church, but to help us to be honest in what we claim as our source of authority. That is, if we believe that the Bible should govern tradition, then a threefold office isn't possible. But it is possible to believe in a threefold office we hold to a form of Holy Tradition, which the Roman Catholic Church does. So it's a non-issue for you, but to claim that the Bible teaches a threefold office is incorrect.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I figured someone would object to this, which is why I mentioned that both Jerome and Bellarmine recognise that the Bible uses the terms interchangeably.

Since a bishop is also a priest there is no difficulty in calling a bishop a priest, however not all priests are also bishops so calling a priest a bishop happens only when the priest is also ordained as a bishop.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Since a bishop is also a priest there is no difficulty in calling a bishop a priest, however not all priests are also bishops so calling a priest a bishop happens only when the priest is also ordained as a bishop.

Yes, I understand this argument because people call me both Pastor and Bishop. However, it doesn't change the fact that the Bible uses the terms interchangeably, which is recognised by Roman Catholic dogmaticians, even Bellarmine, who to my knowledge, is one of the chief dogmaticians.

If you want to understand the issue and what I'm saying, I'd encourage you to re-read what I wrote above. If it's confusing, I'd be glad to elaborate. If you want to leave it, that's of course fine.

I'm not here to hassle you or to attack the Roman Catholic system, but simply to illustrate an important point: It's very hard, I'd say impossible, to substantially argue for the threefold office based on Scripture alone, but that's not a problem if you believe in Holy Tradition, which the Roman Catholic Church does, so that means the doctrine regarding the threefold office is a non-issue for you as a Roman Catholic. But(!) if people claim that the Bible itself teaches a threefold office, I'd first of all like them to show it, and secondly to tell me how the early church as recorded in the Didache along with Jerome is in error. (They would also need to contradict Bellarmine). Because the reality is that the Bible doesn't make a distinction between a Pastoral office and that of a Bishop. The Bible doesn't give certain requirements for Bishop and others for Priest, nor say that there are certain rights that belong to a Bishop that don't belong to a Priest. But if you believe it does, I'm all ears!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes, I understand this argument because people call me both Pastor and Bishop. However, it doesn't change the fact that the Bible uses the terms interchangeably, which is recognised by Roman Catholic dogmaticians, even Bellarmine, who to my knowledge, is one of the chief dogmaticians.

Hasn't he been dead quite a long time?

 

[Always in His Presence]

I have the joy of serving as a Bishop in the Lutheran Church (Independent Lutheran Diocese). However, it's good to appreciate that the Bible uses the words presbyteros (from which we get the word Priest) and episkopos (from which we get the word Bishop) interchangeably, which is to say that the Bible presents us with one pastoral office, which goes by different names, and one helper office, Deacon. And this twofold office, Bishops and Deacons, is also found very explicitly in the Didache, which is one of the earliest Christian writings we have outside of the Bible, and also appears in Clement and Polycarp. The third office of Bishop as something distinct and over the pastoral office is a later development. Now, for those who embrace an understanding of Holy Tradition, that's not a problem. But for those who hold that tradition must be governed by the Scriptures, God's Word, we confess one pastoral office (commonly translated as Overseer or Elder) and one helper office (Deacon), and we can see the requirements for these two offices in Paul's letter to Timothy, 1 Timothy 3:1-13.

Here's an example of how words for the pastoral office are used interchangeably:

Acts 20:17:
“Now from Miletus [Paul] sent to Ephesus and called the elders (presbyteros) of the church to come to him. And when they (the elders) came to him, he said to them: …”

Acts 20:28:
“Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers (episkopos), to care for the Church of God, which He obtained with His own blood.”

It's also good to take note of who are present at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:6; Acts 15:22).

The twofold office is also recognised by Jerome, who writes (Letter 146 — To Evangelus): "The apostle clearly teaches that Presbyters are the same as Bishops." And: “The elders always elected one from among themselves and placed him in a higher station, calling him bishop, just as an army would make a commander for itself. The deacons, moreover, may elect from among themselves one whom they know to be active and name him archdeacon. For with the exception of ordination, what does the bishop have that the elder does not?”

Finally, I can mention that Bellarmine recognised that the Bible uses the words for the pastoral office interchangeably, which is why he appeals to later tradition. And from a Roman Catholic standpoint, that's possible, but for those who hold to the Scriptures as the supreme authority, it's not possible.

So, in our church body, we hold that the office of Bishop is the same as that of Pastor (or Priest). The pastoral office is by divine right, but the office of Bishop as a governing role is man-made, not by divine right. It's essentially the same as a Senior Pastor, Superintendent, or District President. And the reason we have this is because we see throughout the New Testament that they used their freedom in Christ to govern themselves for the sake of good order, in accordance with God's Word. So, very simply, many Evangelical church bodies hold that hierarchy is not demanded by God, but is allowed. But those who hold to a belief in Holy Tradition (which may include some Evangelical bodies) believe that hierarchy is necessary.

Put short: The Bible gives us two offices, and this is what we see in the earliest writings outside of the Bible. But the third office developed very early in church history, and for those who believe in Holy Tradition appeal to that. My objection is that the development, although early, is not early enough. It's not in the Bible.

Well said my Brother. You are eloquent and informed.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Hasn't he been dead quite a long time?

Yes, and what an interesting thing to say! What do you mean by the question?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes, and what an interesting thing to say! What do you mean by the question?

I mean that you wrote of him as if he were a contemporary theologian that you had recently come across.