Were the ephod and urim and thummim tools of divination?

[tonychanyt]

Yes, but only in a limited special sense. Divination, in general, was forbidden. Dt 18:

anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, 12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord.

When Moses was alive, at times, he could speak to God face to face (Ex 33:11). He did not need to use the Urim. The Lord told Moses In Nu 27:

21 "[Joshua] shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who will seek counsel for him before the LORD by the judgment of the Urim. At his command, he and all the Israelites with him—the entire congregation—will go out and come in.”

King Saul used the urim in 1S 14:41 to find out that Jonathan violated his oath. Some years later, the urim didn't work for him. 1S 28:

5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid and trembled violently. 6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets.

In 1 Samuel 23:9-12, David inquired of the Lord through the priest Abiathar, who used the ephod to find out whether the people of Keilah would betray him.

The use of these items declined over time, with later biblical books rarely mentioning them. Their uses were extremely limited.

Were the ephod and urim and thummim tools of divination?

They were of such a special nature that I would hesitate to label them as tools of divination. Divination usually was associated with polytheism.

 

[KevinT]

It seems to me that the Urim and Thummim were only able to answer Yes/No kind of answers. So certainly not as efficient as having a prophet answer questions directly.

Below is an example of David getting instruction from the Lord. It doesn't specify HOW he inquired of God. I thought of this verse when thinking of an example of when a Yes/No answer might have been given. Verse 19 might be answerable via urim/thummin ... But when I looked it up, there are further instructions that must have come through a prophet.

2 Sam 5:19-
19 And David enquired of the Lord, saying, Shall I go up to the Philistines? wilt thou deliver them into mine hand? And the Lord said unto David, Go up: for I will doubtless deliver the Philistines into thine hand.
20 And David came to Baalperazim, and David smote them there, and said, The Lord hath broken forth upon mine enemies before me, as the breach of waters. Therefore he called the name of that place Baalperazim.
21 And there they left their images, and David and his men burned them.
22 And the Philistines came up yet again, and spread themselves in the valley of Rephaim.
23 And when David enquired of the Lord, he said, Thou shalt not go up; but fetch a compass behind them, and come upon them over against the mulberry trees. 24 And let it be, when thou hearest the sound of a going in the tops of the mulberry trees, that then thou shalt bestir thyself: for then shall the Lord go out before thee, to smite the host of the Philistines.
25 And David did so, as the Lord had commanded him; and smote the Philistines from Geba until thou come to Gazer.

KT

 

[AlexB23]

Yes, but only in a limited special sense. Divination, in general, was forbidden. Dt 18:


When Moses was alive, at times, he could speak to God face to face (Ex 33:11). He did not need to use the Urim. The Lord told Moses In Nu 27:


King Saul used the urim in 1S 14:41 to find out that Jonathan violated his oath. Some years later, the urim didn't work for him. 1S 28:


In 1 Samuel 23:9-12, David inquired of the Lord through the priest Abiathar, who used the ephod to find out whether the people of Keilah would betray him.

The use of these items declined over time, with later biblical books rarely mentioning them. Their uses were extremely limited.

Were the ephod and urim and thummim tools of divination?

They were of such a special nature that I would hesitate to label them as tools of divination. Divination usually was associated with polytheism.

Now we have Artificial Intelligence (AI) to answer our deepest questions. No need for demonic magic.

 

[tturt]

There's over 50 chapters about the tabernacle built under Moses' administration as God directed so He could dwell among them. This included instructions for the high priest, Aaron's, garment. "In the breastplate of judgment you shall put the Urim and the Thummim [unspecified articles used when the high priest asked God’s counsel for all Israel]; they shall be upon Aaron’s heart when he goes in before the Lord, and Aaron shall bear the judgment (rights, judicial decisions) of the Israelites upon his heart before the Lord continually."
Exo 28:30

The Urim and the Thummim were used by the priests to find out God's direction. Since Samuel had died,, Dont see where a priest was involved with King Saul when he wasn't answered in I Sam 28.

Today as believers 1 - we are priests. 2 - and more importantly,, we have the Holy Spirit and some of God's wisdom in His written Word to provide continual divine guidance. Of course, they'll be in agreement.

 

[tonychanyt]

It seems to me that the Urim and Thummim were only able to answer Yes/No kind of answers. So certainly not as efficient as having a prophet answer questions directly.

See Use of the Urim and Thummim

 

[eleos1954]

Yes, but only in a limited special sense. Divination, in general, was forbidden. Dt 18:


When Moses was alive, at times, he could speak to God face to face (Ex 33:11). He did not need to use the Urim. The Lord told Moses In Nu 27:


King Saul used the urim in 1S 14:41 to find out that Jonathan violated his oath. Some years later, the urim didn't work for him. 1S 28:


In 1 Samuel 23:9-12, David inquired of the Lord through the priest Abiathar, who used the ephod to find out whether the people of Keilah would betray him.

The use of these items declined over time, with later biblical books rarely mentioning them. Their uses were extremely limited.

Were the ephod and urim and thummim tools of divination?

They were of such a special nature that I would hesitate to label them as tools of divination. Divination usually was associated with polytheism.

These things have their root in believing (not understanding) we are MORTAL ... spiritualism (immortal soul) ... we do not have a immortal soul ... we don't receive immortality until Jesus returns. Life is in and through Him ... nothing in ourselves.

The bible is clear ONLY God is immortal.

1 TIMOTHY 6:16

KJV
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

 

[KevinT]

Now we have Artificial Intelligence (AI) to answer our deepest questions. No need for demonic magic.

I think your answer was tongue-in-cheek. But I do worry that, esp as AI's appear to get better, that we will start turning to AI for all our questions, bowing down to it and asking for answers. Seems like a great stand-in for the idols of old.

KT

 

[AlexB23]

I think your answer was tongue-in-cheek. But I do worry that, esp as AI's appear to get better, that we will start turning to AI for all our questions, bowing down to it and asking for answers. Seems like a great stand-in for the idols of old.

KT

My answer is a joke. 80% of the answers I give to Tony Chan are jokes, cos humor is funny. But yes, this joke may become reality in a few decades.