anti-Catholic or not?

[Diamond72]

We seek the intercession of Mary and the saints.

Why, God can not hear our prayer? Or maybe they just know how to pray better than we do. They understand the will of God to pray according to the will of God.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Acts 2:38​

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I guess my final question is, was Perer, the rock of the Church mistaken in this statement? Does he say anything like "be baptised by water, then later on be baptized by the Holy Spirit." I haven't seen any Biblical quotes. Do you know one that will negate this statement by St Paul the Apostle?

First, we must remember that the Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works (Ephesians 2:8) of any kind, including water baptism. So if we says that any work, (which water baptism is) is required of us for our salvation is incorrect.

To understand acts 2:38, we must take a look at the verse in Greek language. In English, there are many possible usages for the word 'for'. One example is take 2 aspirins for your headache. This obviously does not mean to take 2 aspirins in order to get headache, but it means take 2 aspirins because you have headache. Now the question is, does acts 2:38 mean 'get baptized in order be forgiven' or does it mean 'get baptized because you been forgiven'?

To understand which is correct, we must take at the Greek word eis which is used in the original text and we translate is as the word for. The word eis is one of the most used words in the NT, and has several usages as does the English equivalent for.

In Matthew 12:41 we read this 'The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.' In this verse the word eis communicates the “result” of an action. In this case it is said that the people of Nineveh “repented at the preaching of Jonah”. Clearly, the meaning of this passage is that they repented “because of’” or “as the result of” Jonah’s preaching. In the same way, it would be possible that Acts 2:38 is indeed communicating the fact that they were to be baptized “as the result of” or “because” they already had believed and in doing so had already received forgiveness of their sins.

This interpretation of the passage is also consistent with the message recorded in Peter’s next two sermons to unbelievers where he associates the forgiveness of sins with the act of repentance and faith in Christ without even mentioning baptism, see acts 3&4.

The grammatical evidence surrounding this verse and the preposition eis are clear that while both views on this verse are well within the context and the range of possible meanings of the passage, the majority of the evidence is in favor that the best possible definition of the word “for” in this context is either “because of” or “in regard to” and not “in order to get.” Therefore, Acts 2:38, when interpreted correctly, does not teach that baptism is required for salvation.

 

[RileyG]

Why, God can not hear our prayer? Or maybe they just know how to pray better than we do. They understand the will of God to pray according to the will of God.

Nothing wrong with that.

 

[rturner76]

First, we must remember that the Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works (Ephesians 2:8) of any kind, including water baptism. So if we says that any work, (which water baptism is) is required of us for our salvation is incorrect.

To understand acts 2:38, we must take a look at the verse in Greek language. In English, there are many possible usages for the word 'for'. One example is take 2 aspirins for your headache. This obviously does not mean to take 2 aspirins in order to get headache, but it means take 2 aspirins because you have headache. Now the question is, does acts 2:38 mean 'get baptized in order be forgiven' or does it mean 'get baptized because you been forgiven'?

To understand which is correct, we must take at the Greek word eis which is used in the original text and we translate is as the word for. The word eis is one of the most used words in the NT, and has several usages as does the English equivalent for.

In Matthew 12:41 we read this 'The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.' In this verse the word eis communicates the “result” of an action. In this case it is said that the people of Nineveh “repented at the preaching of Jonah”. Clearly, the meaning of this passage is that they repented “because of’” or “as the result of” Jonah’s preaching. In the same way, it would be possible that Acts 2:38 is indeed communicating the fact that they were to be baptized “as the result of” or “because” they already had believed and in doing so had already received forgiveness of their sins.

This interpretation of the passage is also consistent with the message recorded in Peter’s next two sermons to unbelievers where he associates the forgiveness of sins with the act of repentance and faith in Christ without even mentioning baptism, see acts 3&4.

The grammatical evidence surrounding this verse and the preposition eis are clear that while both views on this verse are well within the context and the range of possible meanings of the passage, the majority of the evidence is in favor that the best possible definition of the word “for” in this context is either “because of” or “in regard to” and not “in order to get.” Therefore, Acts 2:38, when interpreted correctly, does not teach that baptism is required for salvation.

I see we have a completely different understanding of salvation. So I'll stick with the original Church that was founded by Christ and carried on by his disciples. You are free to go with whoever founded your Church. I trust Jesus and his disciples more than some dude's new take on established 2000 year old theology. The reason that I don't want to bother is because of the phenomenon of the Backfire Effect

Cognitive dissonance:
This effect is often explained by the concept of cognitive dissonance, where people experience discomfort when faced with information that challenges their deeply held beliefs, leading them to rationalize or reject the new information to maintain consistency

It won't matter how many times one has been proven wrong, it only makes them hold on to their position tighter and tighter.

But let's give it a try anyway.......

Baptism is the outward expression of your new faith where you publically reject your old life and have it washed away, and accept your new life.
Lei's look at what the Bible has to say about baptism. At least, here is what Jesus had to say about it:

John 3:5
“Jesus answered, 'I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Is Jesus saying that there is no need for baptism or is he saying that if you truly have faith, you will be baptized?

Next, yes, the Bible says that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Here is where your interpretation falters. It actually does NOT say "works of any kind." As we know when we read the other equally valid books of the Bible:

James 2: 18-20
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead?

As you can see, works without faith is nothing. However, faith without works is dead. How can you be saved by grace through faith if your faith is dead? Works by themselves do not save you but as a measure of your faith, your works will give evidence of your faith.

Romans 2:13 Therefore it is good to do it because works are evidence of what one has faith in. Without works, God would never be sure.

What you guys are essentially saying by focusing on that one verse without considering anything else that is written IMO is the work of the enemy. Essentiall you are saying "all you have to do is say you have faith, you don't actually have to act like you have faith."

The act of repentance and faith in Christ is made manifest in your baptism. Does your notion negate Christ's command to repent and be baptized? No This is another way many Protestant churches deceive. "Oh you don't need a water baptism (even though Christ said that if you want to be saved you should." Just get a Holy Spirit baptism. How can negating the validity of baptism be anything but at best a misunderstanding at worst a deception.

To and for by themselves mean nothing when it is clearly written again:

"Except a man be born [again] of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:3-5).

There is no complication about of or for in these, Jesus' direct command other than "of water" which could also be said with water, by water, in water.

Now, are you willing to accept these corrections or am I dealing with the "Backfire effect?" From where I sit, in order to come to your understanding of baptizs, one must jump through mental hoops and engage in mental gymnastics in order to barely be able to get to your point of view. I just quote what Jesus says and I don't really have to explain what the Bible says isn't really what it says.

 

[Valletta]

I'm not anti-Catholic. I just disagree that certain Catholic dogma and tradition has a genuine foundation in scripture. I'd prefer it if the RCC just said 'this is something we came up with on our own', rather than apply eisegesis to try making it look scriptural when it really isn't.

The New Testament is not the foundation for the Catholic Church because not one word of the New Testament was written when the Catholic Church was founded. Bible-only Christian religions started over a thousand years later. The Bible consists of 73 books that the Catholic Church deemed as God-breathed. Some of the Catholic faith is not explicitly in the Bible. An historical event such as the Assumption is not found in the Bible. Catholics believe that the "deposit of the faith" ended with the death of the last Apostles, and while the core truths of the Christian faith were evident other truths, such as the Assumption, were not obvious and were revealed from that deposit of the faith over time.

 

[Diamond72]

Nothing wrong with that.

Paul tells us in Hebrews 4 16 "Therefore we should come with boldness to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and may find grace for help in time of need. ". So do we really need someone to intercede for us? I am usually the one that people ask to intercede for them.

• Revelation 8:3-4: "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel"12.

 

[Servus]

The New Testament is not the foundation for the Catholic Church because not one word of the New Testament was written when the Catholic Church was founded. Bible-only Christian religions started over a thousand years later. The Bible consists of 73 books that the Catholic Church deemed as God-breathed. Some of the Catholic faith is not explicitly in the Bible. An historical event such as the Assumption is not found in the Bible. Catholics believe that the "deposit of the faith" ended with the death of the last Apostles, and while the core truths of the Christian faith were evident other truths, such as the Assumption, were not obvious and were revealed from that deposit of the faith over time.

The gospel and teachings of Jesus therein existed from the beginning. The Gospel of Matthew was written by the Apostle Matthew. The Gospel of John was Written by the Apostle John. The Book of Acts was written during the time the Apostles established the Church and tells us how they went about it. The Epistles of Peter, John, Paul and James are detailed instructional letters to the beginning Church. All of these writings are the earliest and foundational documents of the Church and existed way before being stacked together to form a tome called The Bible. The Dormition and Assumption wasn't written by any Apostolic Father and the origin of such is uncertain. In the late 4th century Epiphanius of Salamis wrote he could find no authorized tradition about how the life of Mary ended.

 

[jas3]

I am usually the one that people ask to intercede for them.

And do you refuse and tell them to go with boldness to the throne of grace, or do you pray for them as we are instructed to in James 5:15-16?

 

[RileyG]

Paul tells us in Hebrews 4 16 "Therefore we should come with boldness to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and may find grace for help in time of need. ". So do we really need someone to intercede for us? I am usually the one that people ask to intercede for them.

• Revelation 8:3-4: "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel"12.

Amen.

 

[Servus]

And do you refuse and tell them to go with boldness to the throne of grace, or do you pray for them as we are instructed to in James 5:15-16?

The instruction of James 5:15-16 is a two way mutual exchange of confessing sins to one another and to pray for one another. I take it that Catholic tradition doesn't say Mary or the saints in haven mutually confess their sins to us here on earth and that Mary or that the saints in heaven need us to pray for them.

If James 5:16 is going to be applied to Mary and the saints in heaven, that means they are confessing their sins to us and we are to pray for them.

 

[RileyG]

The instruction of James 5:15-16 is a two way mutual exchange of confessing sins to one another and to pray for one another. I take it that Catholic tradition doesn't say Mary or the saints in haven mutually confess their sins to us here on earth and that Mary or that the saints in heaven need us to pray for them.

If James 5:16 is going to be applied to Mary and the saints in heaven, that means they are confessing their sins to us and we are to pray for them.

We are simply asking for their intercession. Per revelation and other verses posted, nothing unbiblical about that.

 

[jas3]

The instruction of James 5:15-16 is a two way mutual exchange

Nowhere does it say or imply that it's a "mutual exchange." Verse 15 is in the context of "the elders of the church" praying over and anointing someone who's sick. There is no implication that the sick man is also supposed to pray over and anoint the elders.
Similarly, verse 16 only says to confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, but this doesn't place a strict requirement of reciprocity on the prayer, just as the Apostles saying, "Who is this, that even the wind and sea obey Him?" to "one another" (ἀλλήλων, same word) in Mark 4:41 doesn't mean that James said that phrase to Peter and Peter robotically repeated the same question back to James.

 

[RileyG]

Nowhere does it say or imply that it's a "mutual exchange." Verse 15 is in the context of "the elders of the church" praying over and anointing someone who's sick. There is no implication that the sick man is also supposed to pray over and anoint the elders.
Similarly, verse 16 only says to confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, but this doesn't place a strict requirement of reciprocity on the prayer, just as the Apostles saying, "Who is this, that even the wind and sea obey Him?" to "one another" (ἀλλήλων, same word) in Mark 4:41 doesn't mean that James said that phrase to Peter and Peter robotically repeated the same question back to James.

Exactly! Those verses go hand in hand. Or when Jesus gave the apostles the authority to absolve sins.

 

[Servus]

Nowhere does it say or imply that it's a "mutual exchange." Verse 15 is in the context of "the elders of the church" praying over and anointing someone who's sick. There is no implication that the sick man is also supposed to pray over and anoint the elders.
Similarly, verse 16 only says to confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, but this doesn't place a strict requirement of reciprocity on the prayer, just as the Apostles saying, "Who is this, that even the wind and sea obey Him?" to "one another" (ἀλλήλων, same word) in Mark 4:41 doesn't mean that James said that phrase to Peter and Peter robotically repeated the same question back to James.

"Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another" is clearly a mutual exchange between the participants. If it involves Mary, then that means Mary is confessing her sins and being is prayed for.

 

[Servus]

Exactly! Those verses go hand in hand. Or when Jesus gave the apostles the authority to absolve sins.

They go hand in hand as far as it applying to all of those involved. So again, if James 5:16 involves Mary in heaven, how does that not involve her as being another who confesses her sins to another and is being prayed for by another?

"Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another" - Douay-Rheims.

"Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another" - New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition.

 

[RileyG]

They go hand in hand as far as it applying to all of those involved. So again, if James 5:16 involves Mary in heaven, how does that not involve her as being another who confesses her sins to another and is being prayed for by another?

"Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another" - Douay-Rheims.

"Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another" - New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition.

She never sinned but that’s another discussion

With that being said, they are alive! They can pray for us!

 

[RileyG]

"Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another" is clearly a mutual exchange between the participants. If it involves Mary, then that means Mary is confessing her sins and being is prayed for.

Read the verses before. It’s not a “mutual exchange.”

 

[Servus]

Read the verses before. It’s not a “mutual exchange.”

13 Are any among you suffering? They should pray. Are any cheerful? They should sing songs of praise. 14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

Any means anyone. Elders as well confess their sins and ask for prayer from others for healing. Does Mary also? And how does Mary anoint someone with oil? The passage is clearly about those on earth confessing their sins to one another and praying for one anther as it clearly states in the Catholic Bible which I quoted from. In order for it to include Mary, Mary has to be included as one who confesses sins and is prayed for by others that she may be healed.

 

[Servus]

She never sinned but that’s another discussion

With that being said, they are alive! They can pray for us!

Yes, but are we to pray for them that they may be healed? Because that's what James 5:13-16 is talking about.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

She never sinned but that’s another discussion

Romams 3:23 'for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God' this includes Mary.

1 John 1:8 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.' This includes Mary.

In 1 Corinthians 7 it says, “She withheld her body from her husband. She sinned.” First Corinthians 7:3-5 says it’s a sin to withhold yourself from your husband. Your body is not your own and is your husband’s, even as your husband’s body is not his, it is yours.

The only one without sin is Lord Jesus Christ. Please stop making Mary what she is not.

With that being said, they are alive! They can pray for us!

It's completely pointless to pray to anyone other than God. God is omnipresent and omniscient, neither saints nor Mary are, they do not hear you.

The Bible speaks of Jesus being our sole mediator (1 Timothy 2:5-6; 1 John 1:21) and intercessor (Hebrews 7:25).

Christ is the only mediator between man and God. Why won't you pray directly to Him, when He sits by the right hand of His Father? Jesus promised us that when we pray in His name, the Father will hear our prayers. So tell me why to pray to anyone else?