Is God eventually going to punish evil humans ?

[David Lamb]

You don't have to David, because you did understand what I said. The Lord won't punish, and He never did. He is the same eternally. The same way, you never saw Jesus punish anyone, because he prefered to be punish Himself, in favour of the world. How can the One who save the world, punish it ?
If He does not impute us our faults, what is He punishing us for ? The law punish man, if he did bad, but the Lord do not. Punishment, accusation and condemnation are from the devil, and that is, among other things, what the Son of God detroyed on the cross in His death.
It is the non-faith, disbelief [that come from the devil], that punishes man, because it prevents him to profit of the free gift of God.

Hugo

Thanks Hugo. We seem to agree that God will punish those sinners who refuse to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Hugo B]

Thanks Hugo. We seem to agree that God will punish those sinners who refuse to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

No. All I wrote is the contrary of this declaration : "God will punish those sinners who refuse to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."
How did Jesus treat people who refused to believe in Him ? How did He treat those who hated Him, used and persecute Him ?
He did them good, He loved them, blessed them, and pray for them. But He did not punish them.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you..." said Jesus.

 

[David Lamb]

No. All I wrote is the contrary of this declaration : "God will punish those sinners who refuse to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."
How did Jesus treat people who refused to believe in Him ? How did He treat those who hated Him, used and persecute Him ?
He did them good, He loved them, blessed them, and pray for them. But He did not punish them.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you..." said Jesus.

In that case, I am sorry to say we do disagree. You say that the fact that God sent His Son shows that He doesn't punish sin. I say that the bible teaches that He does indeed punish sin. If we believe in Jesus Christ, that punishment was taken by Him on our behalf. If God doesn't punish sins, Christ would not have had to die on the cross. Paul wrote to the Christians at Ephesus:

“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph 1:7 NKJV)

Who does he mean by "we"? The whole of humanity? No, for he was writing specifically to those he described in the opening of the letter:

“1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,” (Eph 1:1-5 NKJV)

 

[Hugo B]

In that case, I am sorry to say we do disagree. You say that the fact that God sent His Son shows that He doesn't punish sin. I say that the bible teaches that He does indeed punish sin. If we believe in Jesus Christ, that punishment was taken by Him on our behalf. If God doesn't punish sins, Christ would not have had to die on the cross. Paul wrote to the Christians at Ephesus:

“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph 1:7 NKJV)

Who does he mean by "we"? The whole of humanity? No, for he was writing specifically to those he described in the opening of the letter:

“1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,” (Eph 1:1-5 NKJV)

I said He does not punish the sinner. It is in his favour that "the Lamb of God taketh away the sin of the world". (John 1:29)
Does not all the publicans and sinners came to Jesus, drew near Him, to hear Him, and eat with Him ? Did He punish them ? Or, on the contrary, did He receive them ?
Only a lost sheep can be found, and brought back to its sheperd house, by the sheperd himself. A non-lost sheep can not.

Paul wrote to those of faith. Evrything he wrote is about what God did, and still do, in favour of those who believe in Him. "By His will...In Christ Jesus...From God....He has blessed us in Christ....He chose us in Him...before Him....by Jesus Christ Himself....according to His will.
It is all about Him, because, He, was "not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

"Then said they [people of the crowd] unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
-Jesus answered and said unto them , This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John 6:29)

If God punish the sinner, why would He send His Son to save the sinful world ? Did not Jesus said to Nicodemus that the Father so loved this sinful world that He send His Son to save it ?
He came for us to believe, to believe who He is, who the Father really is. Not a punisher, but a Saviour. But for the one who does not need a Saviour, for the righteous, there can be no salvation. So the wrath, which is from the law, abide on Him, because he refuses the free gift of God, His goodness towards man, against all odds.

Hugo

 

[David Lamb]

I said He does not punish the sinner. It is in his favour that "the Lamb of God taketh away the sin of the world". (John 1:29)
Does not all the publicans and sinners came to Jesus, drew near Him, to hear Him, and eat with Him ? Did He punish them ? Or, on the contrary, did He receive them ?
Only a lost sheep can be found, and brought back to its sheperd house, by the sheperd himself. A non-lost sheep can not.

Paul wrote to those of faith. Evrything he wrote is about what God did, and still do, in favour of those who believe in Him. "By His will...In Christ Jesus...From God....He has blessed us in Christ....He chose us in Him...before Him....by Jesus Christ Himself....according to His will.
It is all about Him, because, He, was "not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

"Then said they [people of the crowd] unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
-Jesus answered and said unto them , This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John 6:29)

If God punish the sinner, why would He send His Son to save the sinful world ? Did not Jesus said to Nicodemus that the Father so loved this sinful world that He send His Son to save it ?
He came for us to believe, to believe who He is, who the Father really is. Not a punisher, but a Saviour. But for the one who does not need a Saviour, for the righteous, there can be no salvation. So the wrath, which is from the law, abide on Him, because he refuses the free gift of God, His goodness towards man, against all odds.

Hugo

I will try to say the same thing again in different words. God is perfectly holy, and as such He cannot ignore sin. He must punish it. For sinners who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour, their punishment was taken by Christ on the cross. Those who don't believe must bear the punishment themselves. Think of the two robbers who were crucified either side of Jesus. One came to believe in Jesus, and Jesus said to him that he would be with Jesus in Paradise. He didn't say that to the other robber. If no sinner had to bear the punishment for their sin, then surely Jesus would have said, "Don't worry, both of you! God won't punish you for your sins, and you'll both be in heaven with me!" Think too of Judas Iscariot. Jesus said about him:

“"The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."” (Mt 26:24 NKJV)

If God wasn't going to punish Judas, if Judas was going to heaven, why would it have been good for him not to have been born?

 

[Hugo B]

But this "punishment" is not from God. It is not His. The sin entered in the world because of the snake. How can you link "punishment" with God, once He send His Son for sinners ?
"...For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He is not a man to change, or to vary. He is the same eternally. A Saviour can not punish, He can only save.

Can someone take care of His vine one day, and destroy it the next day ?
And if someone does not want the care of the Lord, would He force him ? No. He respects man, He let him free. There is no obligation in Him. It does not mean He punishes him, not at all. On the contrary, He respects His decision. And this decision means such a man can not receive the care of the Lord. But it is the only thing proposed in the Lord, "care", "goodness", for free. The evil is not from Him, but of the devil, who will always do evrything to divert man from the Lord, and from faith.

He already forive the whole world for its sins, once and for all. For the believers, and non-believers. But is is only accessible through the view of faith, in Him.

Would God punish someone who is in the midst of a prophecy ? Someone in which Satan entered in ?
Jesus said to His disciples that He had to die, that He had to be delivered. All these thing had to happen, in grace for the world. Jesus had to die, "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness...".

He's not punishing Judas by His words, but He prophesy on Judas' future affliction. And if someone is unfortunate, it is because he is not okay with what happened. Otherwise, he would have find that normal, and there would be no misery.
All of this is proved by the fact that Judas repented himself, and gave back the money to the chief priests and elders, who rejected him, even though it was the function of those men to take care of him, according to the law.

Judas recognised the one who entered in him, and he does not delight in him. Unfortunately, he commit suicide, for lack of understanding probably, and above all because of the accusation [which is from the devil] that weigh in on him. So he gave his life, which, in image, means a lot.
For us, today, 2000 years later, it is "easy" to understand this whole "picture". But for him, as those robbers, it was not. Because Jesus was not dead yet, then resurrected. The Spirit had not yet come, to teach all things to man, and specially what happened here.
Because when Matthew wrote these things, it is way later, when the Spirit had come.

Hugo

 

[David Lamb]

But this "punishment" is not from God. It is not His. The sin entered in the world because of the snake. How can you link "punishment" with God, once He send His Son for sinners ?
"...For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He is not a man to change, or to vary. He is the same eternally. A Saviour can not punish, He can only save.

Can someone take care of His vine one day, and destroy it the next day ?
And if someone does not want the care of the Lord, would He force him ? No. He respects man, He let him free. There is no obligation in Him. It does not mean He punishes him, not at all. On the contrary, He respects His decision. And this decision means such a man can not receive the care of the Lord. But it is the only thing proposed in the Lord, "care", "goodness", for free. The evil is not from Him, but of the devil, who will always do evrything to divert man from the Lord, and from faith.

He already forive the whole world for its sins, once and for all. For the believers, and non-believers. But is is only accessible through the view of faith, in Him.

Would God punish someone who is in the midst of a prophecy ? Someone in which Satan entered in ?
Jesus said to His disciples that He had to die, that He had to be delivered. All these thing had to happen, in grace for the world. Jesus had to die, "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness...".

He's not punishing Judas by His words, but He prophesy on Judas' future affliction. And if someone is unfortunate, it is because he is not okay with what happened. Otherwise, he would have find that normal, and there would be no misery.
All of this is proved by the fact that Judas repented himself, and gave back the money to the chief priests and elders, who rejected him, even though it was the function of those men to take care of him, according to the law.

Judas recognised the one who entered in him, and he does not delight in him. Unfortunately, he commit suicide, for lack of understanding probably, and above all because of the accusation [which is from the devil] that weigh in on him. So he gave his life, which, in image, means a lot.
For us, today, 2000 years later, it is "easy" to understand this whole "picture". But for him, as those robbers, it was not. Because Jesus was not dead yet, then resurrected. The Spirit had not yet come, to teach all things to man, and specially what happened here.
Because when Matthew wrote these things, it is way later, when the Spirit had come.

Hugo

Well, Jesus in His teaching certainly talked of God punishing. For example:

“"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."” (Mt 25:46 NKJV)

The devil isn't in a position to inflict everlasting punishment - that is something he will suffer himself.

 

[Darktriad]

According to Christ and the narrow way. Just about everyone is getting thrown out into the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That's why it was called the way before getting rebranded as Christianity by those that hated Christ followers.

 

[David Lamb]

According to Christ and the narrow way. Just about everyone is getting thrown out into the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That's why it was called the way before getting rebranded as Christianity by those that hated Christ followers.

I don't think it is "just about everyone", because in Revelation we read of there being a multitude which no one could number in heaven:

“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,” (Re 7:9 NKJV)

 

[Hugo B]

Well, Jesus in His teaching certainly talked of God punishing. For example:

“"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."” (Mt 25:46 NKJV)

The devil isn't in a position to inflict everlasting punishment - that is something he will suffer himself.

He is, and Jesus talked about it :

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (Luke 12:5)

 

[David Lamb]

He is, and Jesus talked about it :

Yes, only God has the power to cast into hell.

 

[Hugo B]

According to Christ and the narrow way. Just about everyone is getting thrown out into the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That's why it was called the way before getting rebranded as Christianity by those that hated Christ followers.

If anyone does not like the Kingdom and His Justice, His principles, would God force him to? No. It would even hurt someone to be there. He is not the one who impose Himself, but He frees. He only propose Himself to man.

In Israel, the law reigns, which focus everything on man, on what he has to do, and say, and think. Such a man only rely on himself, and on his application of the law. So what does he need ? Did he even need something...? What could a Saviour do for him ? The sinner needs a Saviour, not the righteous.

And, for this righteous, this way must be very narrow. Because faith is not wide and broad for such a man, because there is no space for him and all his works.

22And he [Jesus] went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: (Luke 13)

I wonder why those people where standing without, don't you ? Why where they out of the master's house ? However, was not the door of the house wide open ?

- - -

Isaiah, the prophet of the Lord also talked about a way, the One of the Lord, from which he said :

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

A way for the weak hands, the feeble knees, the fearful heart, the blind, the deaf, the lame, and the dumb. It shall be for "those", "though fools".
For the incapable person, who can only rely on the Lord, by faith.

 

[Hugo B]

Yes, only God has the power to cast into hell.

Is this How Jesus present Himself ? Is this how he showed the Father ? Killing and casting people into hell...?

How the One who give life, erverlasting life, can kill ? How the One, the only One, who save, can kill ?
Did Jesus came into the world to kill it, and to cast it into hell ? Or, on the contrary, to save from another ?
Does not Jesus talked about someone who is a murderer from the beginning ?

He [the devil] was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)

Hugo

 

[David Lamb]

Is this How Jesus present Himself ? Is this how he showed the Father ? Killing and casting people into hell...?

How the One who give life, erverlasting life, can kill ? How the One, the only One, who save, can kill ?
Did Jesus came into the world to kill it, and to cast it into hell ? Or, on the contrary, to save from another ?
Does not Jesus talked about someone who is a murderer from the beginning ?



Hugo

Yes, Jesus came to save sinners. Does He save every single sinner? No, again and again, He says that is those who believe in Him who are saved.

Does the devil have the power to caster unrepentant sinners into hell? No, hell is his destination too.

 

[Hugo B]

If someone does not like Jesus' Kingdom, if he does not like the name of God, which is "Saviour", in Jesus-Christ, he won't go in this kingdom.
Not because Jesus prevent him, but because he refuses it, he does not rejoice in it, in the Free Gift of God.
So there is an other kingdom for him, for the devil, and everyone who is against God. Disbelief comes from the devil, since the beginning. He is the one we should fear, because he will always try to divert our faith from God, and from what He is : good.

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (1 John 4:18)

There is nothing to fear in God, shows John, the apostle of Jesus-Christ.

Hugo

 

[ViaCrucis]

As a Lutheran there is a whole "thing" about what we call the Crux Theologorum or "Theologian's Cross"; it is called a cross because it is a burden which must be carried by the faithful theologian. The short version of the Crux Theologorum is found in the question, "Why some, but not others?" In other words, why are some saved but not everyone?

The Crux Theologorum arises because of what looks to be, at least from a purely rational perspective, statements in Scripture which seem impossible to resolve or harmonize in a perfectly rational way.

- The Bible asserts that God's election or predestining of some to salvation is an efficient cause of their salvation, e.g. I am saved because God chose me to be saved. This is what we read in places such as in Ephesians 1 and Romans 8 concerning God having chosen us, predestining us, to salvation. It is therefore not a result of my will, choice, or works that I am saved; but rather it is the result of God's will.

- The Bible asserts that it is God's will that everyone be saved, such as in 2 Peter 3 that God is patient and wills that nobody perish but that all come to repentance; or 2 Timothy 2 that God is the Savior of all men, and desires that all have life and come to knowledge of the truth. We also read in Romans 5 that even as all became unrighteous through Adam's sin, all are made righteous through Christ's righteous work. The Prophet Ezekiel also having said long ago that God takes no joy in the death of the wicked, but desires the wicked repent and live. So that we can know that it is never God's will for any to perish, it is God's will that all have salvation.

If salvation is because it is God's will to save, and it has nothing to do with our works (see e.g. Ephesians 2:8-9 as well as myriad other places), and God's will is all to be saved--then "why some, and not others?"

And here:

- The Bible asserts that the reason why any are not saved is because men resist God's grace, reject the Gospel, and continue in their sin, such as in John chapter 3 where Christ says that the Light came into the world but that men preferred darkness over light because their deeds were evil. For Christ did not come to condemn, but to save; but condemnation exists because human beings dwell in darkness and prefer it. Or as St. Paul says in Romans 10, "But they have not all received the Gospel", for men resist and reject; as is the natural condition of man as the Apostle had written earlier in Romans 3, "All have sinned and fallen short" and quoting the Psalmist says, "There is none who is righteous, not a single one; there is no one who understands, there is none who seeks God".

It is because of willful rejection that we damn ourselves; but it is only by the willful love of God in the Gospel that He saves us.

There are ways which some theologians have tried to reconcile these things; some have argued that salvation, therefore, is as much part of our own works and effort as damnation is, so they teach that salvation comes about through human works in cooperation with God's free gift, this is expressed in phrases such as "Accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior" in the common parlance of post-Second Great Awakening American Evangelicalism; or in the theology of Roman Catholicism where God infuses a kind of ground-level of grace which enables men to act in accordance with God through faith. On the other hand there are those who insist that the solution isn't to glorify human ability, but instead declare that salvation is ultimately God's soveregin choice, picking and choosing whom He will and whom He won't save, this is the doctrine of the Calvinists who argue that Christ only came for the elect, and that God doesn't will that all be saved, but only all the elect to be saved.

Such theological systems are more rationally satisfying, either by appealing to human ability or to Divine sovereignty; but what makes the Crux Theologorum a cross is because we cannot use our reason to lord over the revelation of God; but must submit ourselves to God's revelation even if it makes us uncomfortable or even offends our reason. This, as a statement, shouldn't be shocking from a biblical perspective, for St. Paul himself says that the things of God offend our soulishness and can only be received Spiritually--it is the Holy Spirit, working faith, that receives such things as true; and likewise calls the Gospel an offense to the wise and rational, calling it "foolishness" and "weakness".

When we Lutherans are accused of being anti-reason, this is what is often meant; though obviously as a Lutheran I would argue we aren't anti-reason; we simply prioritize reason differently. Reason cannot get us to believing that the Victim of Mt. Calvary is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world; such is in fact offensive to pure reason. But reason, in the service of faith, is necessary and good.

Regardless of where one stands on the issue, believer or unbeliever, I felt this might be a helpful addition to the conversation. As a Lutheran I try to offer the Lutheran POV on issues, because Lutheranism isn't a particularly loud voice in modern Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hugo B]

When the Lord came to Abram for the first time, in the Scipture, He made a Promise :

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
https://saintebible.com/genesis/12-3.htm
3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Genesis 12)

...all families of the earth...said the Lord.

So did the Promise of God, which find His fulfilment in Jesus-Christ, rejected anyone ? Did It contain some people, and not other ? I'm not talking by myself, and I think we can all agree, if we're honest, that the Scripture is very clear.

By faith, and I precise it because that is, precisely, the fundation of this Promise, the Lord made a Promise in favour of Abram, and all the families of the earth.

So what is in the heart of the Lord ? What is the nature of this Promise ? Full of goodness. Nothing was expected from Abram, everything was said in direction of his faith.

Did Abram had to do something in return ? Him or "all the families" ? What does the Scripture say ? "I will..."

Against all odds, counting what happened in the land of Shinar, with Babel, to list only a few. Just after that came a Promise of God, in grace fo the world. Why did He not detroy the world instead ? Why did He not punish man ? He did the exact opposite, by blessing the whole world through a Promise, by faith.

Fortunately, He is righteous. And if someone is not okay with what He is, with His only goodness, whith His grace, with his wonders, He will accept it. He won't ever force man, for anything. He plan a other kingdom for those who don't like what He is. And here again, it is because He is good. Otherwise, He would not act that way.
For anyone who does not rejoice in His free gift, He condemn himself. Not because God did, and never will, but because He condemn himself, by rejecting God.
It is the devil that kills, since the beginning. And there is a special place for him, that has nothing in God. A place of torment, because, what is left when there is no goodness at all...?
The devil is still killing people, avoiding man to be carried by the Lord Himself, and prevent him to receive all His graces, in Jesus-Christ. So, yes, he has a power, which is not of God, and Jesus said it. "He has nothing in me".


Hugo

 

[Darktriad]

I don't think it is "just about everyone", because in Revelation we read of there being a multitude which no one could number in heaven:

“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,” (Re 7:9 NKJV)

That doesn't mean a whole lot considering countless people have been born throughout all of history. I don't know or claim to know the percent or total number of people going to heaven. We just know the gate is Narrow because Jesus said it was. Matthew 7:13-14

 

[David Lamb]

That doesn't mean a whole lot considering countless people have been born throughout all of history. I don't know or claim to know the percent or total number of people going to heaven. We just know the gate is Narrow because Jesus said it was. Matthew 7:13-14

You're right, we are not told the percentage, but praise God, it is a great number who will be in heaven.

 

[Neogaia777]

Let's not overstep our bounds here and claim to know for sure what even Jesus himself didn't know for sure, ok.

Matthew 19:25–26 (NKJV): 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

This answer/response from Jesus reveals three things. A- He didn't know how many, or whether it would be many or few being saved. And B- But that he had a hope that it would wind up being many that would end up being saved. And then C- But that it was ultimately only up to both his and our God the Father as to whether it would be many or few being saved.

We should not be overstepping our bounds in trying to claim we know beyond these things, etc.

We will know, or will find out when Jesus comes back. Or else we will find out at the very end of this whole entire creations age or ending if we don't find out then maybe, etc.

So be careful how you are judging in the meantime, ok.

God Bless.