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A young priest explains Canon

Xeno.of.athens

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Transcript:
If you’ve ever opened a Protestant Bible, you’ve likely noticed a major difference
from our own Catholic Bible: their Old Testament has fewer books than ours.
Well, that, and their Bible actually looks like it’s been used before instead of sitting
on a shelf for years… but that’s a different topic.
Whereas the Catholic Bible contains 73 books, the Protestant version only contains 66.
Making things even more confusing, Orthodox Bibles contain 76, 78, or even 79 books, depending
on the Tradition.
Where does this discrepancy come from, and who’s ultimately right?
This is Catholicism in Focus.
While it may seem entirely foreign to us today, there was actually a time in the Church before
the Bible existed.
For centuries, in fact, the Church was guided by the Hebrew Scriptures and a random bunch
of recently written texts that varied from place to place.
God most certainly inspired many texts throughout our history, but we weren’t exactly given
a table of contents to know which ones they were.
Which is why, for more than three centuries, there was no “official canon” of scripture
but rather, every local area had its own versions of the Bible.
Some included books that would later be removed—things like 1 Clement and the Didache—while others
originally excluded certain books we consider canonical today—such as James or Revelation.
As the Church began to develop in many different directions over this time, heretical ideas
like Arianism and Docetism forced the Church to work together beyond the local level, convening
councils and promulgating doctrine.
There was a growing desire, particularly in the West, to formalize and legally assert
the teachings of the Church.
To do so, the Church set three criteria for accepting works into the New Testament.
To be considered inspired and worthy of entry into the canon, a text must, one, be associated
with an Apostle, two, be widely circulated and prominent in liturgies, and three, contain
theology consistent with our understanding of God.
Many lists can be found dating back to as early as Marcion in the year 140, but the
earliest extent list of books as they appear in the Catholic Bible today can be found in
a letter from St. Athanasius in 367.
This list was later included at the Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419, and reasserted
1000 years later at the Council of Florence in the 15th century.
At least in the Western Church, that is more than 1600 years of consistent teaching on
the canon of scripture.
So how is there still so much discrepancy in the Christian world today?
The issue can be understood on two fronts for two very different reasons.
We’ll start with Orthodox Churches.
One thing that is often forgotten about the relationship between the Eastern and Western
Churches is that the East simply doesn’t share the same level of legalism that the
West does.
Whereas Catholics want to define and categorize everything, setting rules for everything under
the sun, the Orthodox Churches have always placed a greater emphasis on mystery.
And so, while the Council of Carthage listed the 73 books of the Bible in 397 and the Eastern
Church had no objection to this, it also didn’t treat this teaching as definitely closing
the canon either.
Particularly in Antioch, local customs continued, and texts like 3rd and 4th Maccabees, the
Prayer of Manassah, and Psalm 151— things that were not listed at Carthage—continued
to be a part of their liturgies.
For them, there is no need to make definitive distinctions between inspired and uninspired
books, as if it were a black and white issue.
Instead, they recognize a gradation of inspiration over a wide range of texts.
It’s why even today, believe it or not, there are many individual Eastern Churches
in communion with one another that have slightly variant versions of both Testaments.
It doesn’t make sense to our Western, legalistic mindset, but it is a Tradition that is as
old, if not older than our own.
This is quite different, however, from the issue with the Protestant canon of Scripture.
Rather than add to the canon of the Council of Carthage with a more ancient Tradition,
the Protestant Bible has removed from it.
To understand this, we must look to the formation of Old Testament.
For those in the ancient Greek-speaking world, Christian or Jew, the only version of the
Old Testament available was the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament compiled
during the Greek occupation of the Jews in the centuries before the birth of Christ.
It was the version of Scripture that Jesus himself would have known, and is cited by
rabbis for centuries.
But just as there is an affinity for the Latin language in the Catholic Church, so too, is
there an affinity for the Hebrew language for some Jews.
The original scriptures were written in Hebrew, not Greek, and so in the early middle ages,
there was a growing desire among Jews to recapture what was seen as the more authentic version
of the text.
Between the 6th and 10th centuries, Jewish scribes called Masoretes began compiling,
translating, and preserving their scriptures in Hebrew.
Because the books of Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Sirach, Wisdom, First and Second Maccabees
were written during the Hellenistic period, a time when Jews spoke and wrote only in Greek,
these books were never recorded in Hebrew, and thus, seen as inauthentic, and thus, removed.
When Luther came along and began studying Scripture, seeking to reform the Church to
its earliest roots, he naturally looked to the Jews of his day, believing that they had
the oldest, most authentic version of Scripture.
This was unfortunately not correct, as the Masoretic Text is actually about 1000 years
younger than the Septuagint, and so he falsely concluded that the Catholic Church must have
added inauthentic books to justify our doctrines.
And so, following medieval Jews rather than the ancient Church, when Luther and the other
Protestants issued a translation of the Bible, they removed seven books that had guided Christians
since the beginning, leaving their total at just 66.
A decision, unlike the Orthodox Churches, that signifies a distinct break from Tradition.
It’s an example of how, even though Catholics and Orthodox Christians can disagree on some
things, we’ve never really too far apart.
While we would argue that the canon was set in 397 and we have remained faithful to that
tradition for more than 1600 years, we can also recognize some truth in the plurality
of ancient canons: technically speaking, the canon was never actually promulgated at an
Ecumenical Council until Trent, and so the East has always had its own distinct and completely
valid method from ours.
The idea of REMOVING texts from the canon, however, of taking it upon oneself to revise
the local councils of one’s own Church, going against a tradition that had existed
since before the time of Christ… that’s a bit more problematic, and ultimately the
attitude that doomed the Reformation.
Who are we, especially when dealing with Scripture, to believe that we know more than our spiritual
mothers and fathers that came before us and compiled this incredible book?
God may not have given us an official list, but when Christians do the same thing for more than
1000 years… it’s probably good not to mess with it.
 
Last edited:

Always in His Presence

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Many lists can be found dating back to as early as Marcion in the year 140, but the
earliest extent list of books as they appear in the Catholic Bible today can be found in
a letter from St. Athanasius in 367.
Who cited exactly 66 books.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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St. Athanasius in 367 - in his Easter letter.
His letter has 73 books.

Of the particular books and their number, which are accepted by the Church. From the thirty-ninth Letter of Holy Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, on the Paschal festival; wherein he defines canonically what are the divine books which are accepted by the Church.

1. They have fabricated books which they call books of tables, in which they shew stars, to which they give the names of Saints. And therein of a truth they have inflicted on themselves a double reproach: those who have written such books, because they have perfected themselves in a lying and contemptible science; and as to the ignorant and simple, they have led them astray by evil thoughts concerning the right faith established in all truth and upright in the presence of God.
2. But since we have made mention of heretics as dead, but of ourselves as possessing the Divine Scriptures for salvation; and since I fear lest, as Paul wrote to the Corinthians, some few of the simple should be beguiled from their simplicity and purity, by the subtility of certain men, and should henceforth read other books — those called apocryphal — led astray by the similarity of their names with the true books; I beseech you to bear patiently, if I also write, by way of remembrance, of matters with which you are acquainted, influenced by the need and advantage of the Church.
3. In proceeding to make mention of these things, I shall adopt, to commend my undertaking, the pattern of Luke the Evangelist, saying on my own account: ‘Forasmuch as some have taken in hand,’ to reduce into order for themselves the books termed apocryphal, and to mix them up with the divinely inspired Scripture, concerning which we have been fully persuaded, as they who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the Word, delivered to the fathers; it seemed good to me also, having been urged thereto by true brethren, and having learned from the beginning, to set before you the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as Divine; to the end that any one who has fallen into error may condemn those who have led him astray; and that he who has continued steadfast in purity may again rejoice, having these things brought to his remembrance.
4. There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua, the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the twelve being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations, and the epistle, one book; afterwards, Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament.
5. Again it is not tedious to speak of the [books] of the New Testament. These are, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Afterwards, the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles (called Catholic), seven, viz. of James, one; of Peter, two; of John, three; after these, one of Jude. In addition, there are fourteen Epistles of Paul, written in this order. The first, to the Romans; then two to the Corinthians; after these, to the Galatians; next, to the Ephesians; then to the Philippians; then to the Colossians; after these, two to the Thessalonians, and that to the Hebrews; and again, two to Timothy; one to Titus; and lastly, that to Philemon. And besides, the Revelation of John.
6. These are fountains of salvation, that they who thirst may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In these alone is proclaimed the doctrine of godliness. Let no man add to these, neither let him take ought from these. For concerning these the Lord put to shame the Sadducees, and said, ‘Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures.’ And He reproved the Jews, saying, ‘Search the Scriptures, for these are they that testify of Me.’
7. But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings. But they are an invention of heretics, who write them when they choose, bestowing upon them their approbation, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as ancient writings, they may find occasion to lead astray the simple.
 
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Always in His Presence

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His letter has 73 books.
nope -


It was actually not until 367 AD that the church father Athanasius first provided the complete listing of the 66 books belonging to the canon.

  • He distinguished those from other books that were widely circulated and he noted that those 66 books were the ones, and the only ones, universally accepted.
  • The point is that the formation of the canon did not come all at once like a thunderbolt, but was the product of centuries of reflection.

Here is my point and then I'll retire from redundancy.

We can post a hundred threads on the Bible, it will not solve the schism that has been prevalent for almost 1,800 years.

Theologians from one side say - the cannon was 66 and they trace it back to the 300's.
Theologians from the other side say - the cannon was 73 and they trace it back to the 300's.

Both sides can dispute their position - both sides can recite their reasoning and facts infinitum. Nothing has nor will change - it's a moot point.

While not a theologian - I believe this is a appropriate quote among theologians.

insanity-is-doing-the-same-thing-over-and-over-again-and-expecting-different-results-quote-1.jpg
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Post #5 contains the text of Saint Athanasius' letter the list of canonical books is in it and the total number in the old testament is
  1. Genesis,
  2. then Exodus,
  3. next Leviticus,
  4. after that Numbers,
  5. and then Deuteronomy
  6. Joshua, the son of Nun,
  7. then Judges,
  8. then Ruth
  9. four books of Kings
  10. (2 kings
  11. 3 kings
  12. 4 kings)
  13. first and second of the Chronicles
  14. (2 Chronicles)
  15. Ezra, the first
  16. and second
  17. Psalms,
  18. then the Proverbs,
  19. next Ecclesiastes,
  20. and the Song of Songs.
  21. Job follows,
  22. then the Prophets, the twelve
  23. 2 minor prophet
  24. 3 minor prophet
  25. 4 minor prophet
  26. 5 minor prophet
  27. 6 minor prophet
  28. 7 minor prophet
  29. 8 minor prophet
  30. 9 minor prophet
  31. 10 minor prophet
  32. 11 minor prophet
  33. 12 minor prophet
  34. Then Isaiah, one book,
  35. then Jeremiah
  36. with Baruch,
  37. Lamentations,
  38. and the epistle (letter of Jeremiah), one book;
  39. afterwards, Ezekiel
  40. and Daniel - with some question about the canonicity of the following
  41. The Wisdom of Solomon,
  42. and the Wisdom of Sirach,
  43. and Esther,
  44. and Judith,
  45. and Tobit (and then two for reading which he says are not in the canon)
  46. the Teaching of the Apostles,
  47. and the Shepherd
 
  • Winner
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Xeno.of.athens

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Another Catholic vs Protestant bible thread already? Are you having a personal struggle over this?
Your post seems to be a taunt of some sort. The original post discusses the canon and includes Catholic, Orthodox, Jewish, and Protestant perspectives. It is not intended as a Catholic versus Protestant debate.
 
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Servus

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Your post seems to be a taunt of some sort.
No it's something I've been wondering about.
The original post discusses the canon and includes Catholic, Orthodox, Jewish, and Protestant perspectives. It is not intended as a Catholic versus Protestant debate.
Be that as it may based on previous experience that's what they usually turn out to be though. Not that I'm complaining as I've participated in a few.

A lot of us read scripture online now, so any book is just as readily available as another. A lot of Christians like to add the Book of Enoch into the mix as well, because Jude quoted from it.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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No it's something I've been wondering about.

Be that as it may based on previous experience that's what they usually turn out to be though. Not that I'm complaining as I've participated in a few.

A lot of us read scripture online now, so any book is just as readily available as another. A lot of Christians like to add the Book of Enoch into the mix as well, because Jude quoted from it.
It appears that your posts are attempting to steer the discussion towards a Catholic versus Protestant debate.
 
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Servus

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It appears that your posts are attempting to steer the discussion towards a Catholic versus Protestant debate.
No I usually join the ones already in progress. What sort of discussion/debate do you want? Perhaps stating that up front will help steer the course this goes in.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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No I usually join the ones already in progress. What sort of discussion/debate do you want? Perhaps stating that up front will help steer the course this goes in.
It's all in the Original Post.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Your intent regarding the course of discussion is not in the OP. So please answer the question.
It is in the OP. My intent is to inform and to promote courteous discussion. The OP starts it off and sets an example.
 
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Offline4Better.

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Transcript:
If you’ve ever opened a Protestant Bible, you’ve likely noticed a major difference
from our own Catholic Bible: their Old Testament has fewer books than ours.
Well, that, and their Bible actually looks like it’s been used before instead of sitting
on a shelf for years… but that’s a different topic.
Whereas the Catholic Bible contains 73 books, the Protestant version only contains 66.
Making things even more confusing, Orthodox Bibles contain 76, 78, or even 79 books, depending
on the Tradition.
Where does this discrepancy come from, and who’s ultimately right?
This is Catholicism in Focus.
While it may seem entirely foreign to us today, there was actually a time in the Church before
the Bible existed.
For centuries, in fact, the Church was guided by the Hebrew Scriptures and a random bunch
of recently written texts that varied from place to place.
God most certainly inspired many texts throughout our history, but we weren’t exactly given
a table of contents to know which ones they were.
Which is why, for more than three centuries, there was no “official canon” of scripture
but rather, every local area had its own versions of the Bible.
Some included books that would later be removed—things like 1 Clement and the Didache—while others
originally excluded certain books we consider canonical today—such as James or Revelation.
As the Church began to develop in many different directions over this time, heretical ideas
like Arianism and Docetism forced the Church to work together beyond the local level, convening
councils and promulgating doctrine.
There was a growing desire, particularly in the West, to formalize and legally assert
the teachings of the Church.
To do so, the Church set three criteria for accepting works into the New Testament.
To be considered inspired and worthy of entry into the canon, a text must, one, be associated
with an Apostle, two, be widely circulated and prominent in liturgies, and three, contain
theology consistent with our understanding of God.
Many lists can be found dating back to as early as Marcion in the year 140, but the
earliest extent list of books as they appear in the Catholic Bible today can be found in
a letter from St. Athanasius in 367.
This list was later included at the Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419, and reasserted
1000 years later at the Council of Florence in the 15th century.
At least in the Western Church, that is more than 1600 years of consistent teaching on
the canon of scripture.
So how is there still so much discrepancy in the Christian world today?
The issue can be understood on two fronts for two very different reasons.
We’ll start with Orthodox Churches.
One thing that is often forgotten about the relationship between the Eastern and Western
Churches is that the East simply doesn’t share the same level of legalism that the
West does.
Whereas Catholics want to define and categorize everything, setting rules for everything under
the sun, the Orthodox Churches have always placed a greater emphasis on mystery.
And so, while the Council of Carthage listed the 73 books of the Bible in 397 and the Eastern
Church had no objection to this, it also didn’t treat this teaching as definitely closing
the canon either.
Particularly in Antioch, local customs continued, and texts like 3rd and 4th Maccabees, the
Prayer of Manassah, and Psalm 151— things that were not listed at Carthage—continued
to be a part of their liturgies.
For them, there is no need to make definitive distinctions between inspired and uninspired
books, as if it were a black and white issue.
Instead, they recognize a gradation of inspiration over a wide range of texts.
It’s why even today, believe it or not, there are many individual Eastern Churches
in communion with one another that have slightly variant versions of both Testaments.
It doesn’t make sense to our Western, legalistic mindset, but it is a Tradition that is as
old, if not older than our own.
This is quite different, however, from the issue with the Protestant canon of Scripture.
Rather than add to the canon of the Council of Carthage with a more ancient Tradition,
the Protestant Bible has removed from it.
To understand this, we must look to the formation of Old Testament.
For those in the ancient Greek-speaking world, Christian or Jew, the only version of the
Old Testament available was the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament compiled
during the Greek occupation of the Jews in the centuries before the birth of Christ.
It was the version of Scripture that Jesus himself would have known, and is cited by
rabbis for centuries.
But just as there is an affinity for the Latin language in the Catholic Church, so too, is
there an affinity for the Hebrew language for some Jews.
The original scriptures were written in Hebrew, not Greek, and so in the early middle ages,
there was a growing desire among Jews to recapture what was seen as the more authentic version
of the text.
Between the 6th and 10th centuries, Jewish scribes called Masoretes began compiling,
translating, and preserving their scriptures in Hebrew.
Because the books of Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Sirach, Wisdom, First and Second Maccabees
were written during the Hellenistic period, a time when Jews spoke and wrote only in Greek,
these books were never recorded in Hebrew, and thus, seen as inauthentic, and thus, removed.
When Luther came along and began studying Scripture, seeking to reform the Church to
its earliest roots, he naturally looked to the Jews of his day, believing that they had
the oldest, most authentic version of Scripture.
This was unfortunately not correct, as the Masoretic Text is actually about 1000 years
younger than the Septuagint, and so he falsely concluded that the Catholic Church must have
added inauthentic books to justify our doctrines.
And so, following medieval Jews rather than the ancient Church, when Luther and the other
Protestants issued a translation of the Bible, they removed seven books that had guided Christians
since the beginning, leaving their total at just 66.
A decision, unlike the Orthodox Churches, that signifies a distinct break from Tradition.
It’s an example of how, even though Catholics and Orthodox Christians can disagree on some
things, we’ve never really too far apart.
While we would argue that the canon was set in 397 and we have remained faithful to that
tradition for more than 1600 years, we can also recognize some truth in the plurality
of ancient canons: technically speaking, the canon was never actually promulgated at an
Ecumenical Council until Trent, and so the East has always had its own distinct and completely
valid method from ours.
The idea of REMOVING texts from the canon, however, of taking it upon oneself to revise
the local councils of one’s own Church, going against a tradition that had existed
since before the time of Christ… that’s a bit more problematic, and ultimately the
attitude that doomed the Reformation.
Who are we, especially when dealing with Scripture, to believe that we know more than our spiritual
mothers and fathers that came before us and compiled this incredible book?
God may not have given us an official list, but when Christians do the same thing for more than
1000 years… it’s probably good not to mess with it.
Thank you for the transcript. It bugs me when theology videos do not have transcripts, or at least an AI summary of the transcript. For that, I give you a prize.
 
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Servus

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A key point in this is Fr. Casey explaining that the seven deuterocanonical books were written during the Hellenistic period between 323 BC – 32 BC.

Malachi the last of the 39 books of the Old Testament was written sometime around 450 BC.

Now we know that Jesus condemned the scribes on a number of levels. And it seems they became corrupt in their teaching sometime between the writing of Malachi and the coming of Christ. And the doctrine and practices of the seven deuterocanonical written during the Hellenistic period do not seem to align with the the 39 and do not seem to be inspired.

Now Catholics go by decisions made by the magisterium regarding what's canon. And will say Protestants follow the decisions made by Martian Luther regarding canon based alone on his authority. And also the decisions made by the magisterium of the Catholic church regarding canon based on that authority alone.

However there's many scholars over the centuries who have examined all the books of the bible and all the books considered apocrypha independently (or in independent groups) and arrived at the same conclusions regarding what books are inspired by God. That's why there are only two bibles, one with 66 books and one with 73 books, rather than several different bibles containing different types and numbers of books. There's no Protestant bible that say leaves out Song of Songs, Ester and Revelation but adds Enoch, Bell and the Dragon and Thomas.
 
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jas3

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Both sides can dispute their position - both sides can recite their reasoning and facts infinitum. Nothing has nor will change - it's a moot point.
Well so far only one side has recited its reasoning and facts. It would be nice to see a response from you that addresses the actual text of the letter that people keep giving to you and that you keep studiously ignoring.
 
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Transcript:
If you’ve ever opened a Protestant Bible, you’ve likely noticed a major difference
from our own Catholic Bible: their Old Testament has fewer books than ours.
Well, that, and their Bible actually looks like it’s been used before instead of sitting
on a shelf for years… but that’s a different topic.
Whereas the Catholic Bible contains 73 books, the Protestant version only contains 66.
Making things even more confusing, Orthodox Bibles contain 76, 78, or even 79 books, depending
on the Tradition.
Where does this discrepancy come from, and who’s ultimately right?
This is Catholicism in Focus.
While it may seem entirely foreign to us today, there was actually a time in the Church before
the Bible existed.
For centuries, in fact, the Church was guided by the Hebrew Scriptures and a random bunch
of recently written texts that varied from place to place.
God most certainly inspired many texts throughout our history, but we weren’t exactly given
a table of contents to know which ones they were.
Which is why, for more than three centuries, there was no “official canon” of scripture
but rather, every local area had its own versions of the Bible.
Some included books that would later be removed—things like 1 Clement and the Didache—while others
originally excluded certain books we consider canonical today—such as James or Revelation.
As the Church began to develop in many different directions over this time, heretical ideas
like Arianism and Docetism forced the Church to work together beyond the local level, convening
councils and promulgating doctrine.
There was a growing desire, particularly in the West, to formalize and legally assert
the teachings of the Church.
To do so, the Church set three criteria for accepting works into the New Testament.
To be considered inspired and worthy of entry into the canon, a text must, one, be associated
with an Apostle, two, be widely circulated and prominent in liturgies, and three, contain
theology consistent with our understanding of God.
Many lists can be found dating back to as early as Marcion in the year 140, but the
earliest extent list of books as they appear in the Catholic Bible today can be found in
a letter from St. Athanasius in 367.
This list was later included at the Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419, and reasserted
1000 years later at the Council of Florence in the 15th century.
At least in the Western Church, that is more than 1600 years of consistent teaching on
the canon of scripture.
So how is there still so much discrepancy in the Christian world today?
The issue can be understood on two fronts for two very different reasons.
We’ll start with Orthodox Churches.
One thing that is often forgotten about the relationship between the Eastern and Western
Churches is that the East simply doesn’t share the same level of legalism that the
West does.
Whereas Catholics want to define and categorize everything, setting rules for everything under
the sun, the Orthodox Churches have always placed a greater emphasis on mystery.
And so, while the Council of Carthage listed the 73 books of the Bible in 397 and the Eastern
Church had no objection to this, it also didn’t treat this teaching as definitely closing
the canon either.
Particularly in Antioch, local customs continued, and texts like 3rd and 4th Maccabees, the
Prayer of Manassah, and Psalm 151— things that were not listed at Carthage—continued
to be a part of their liturgies.
For them, there is no need to make definitive distinctions between inspired and uninspired
books, as if it were a black and white issue.
Instead, they recognize a gradation of inspiration over a wide range of texts.
It’s why even today, believe it or not, there are many individual Eastern Churches
in communion with one another that have slightly variant versions of both Testaments.
It doesn’t make sense to our Western, legalistic mindset, but it is a Tradition that is as
old, if not older than our own.
This is quite different, however, from the issue with the Protestant canon of Scripture.
Rather than add to the canon of the Council of Carthage with a more ancient Tradition,
the Protestant Bible has removed from it.
To understand this, we must look to the formation of Old Testament.
For those in the ancient Greek-speaking world, Christian or Jew, the only version of the
Old Testament available was the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament compiled
during the Greek occupation of the Jews in the centuries before the birth of Christ.
It was the version of Scripture that Jesus himself would have known, and is cited by
rabbis for centuries.
But just as there is an affinity for the Latin language in the Catholic Church, so too, is
there an affinity for the Hebrew language for some Jews.
The original scriptures were written in Hebrew, not Greek, and so in the early middle ages,
there was a growing desire among Jews to recapture what was seen as the more authentic version
of the text.
Between the 6th and 10th centuries, Jewish scribes called Masoretes began compiling,
translating, and preserving their scriptures in Hebrew.
Because the books of Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Sirach, Wisdom, First and Second Maccabees
were written during the Hellenistic period, a time when Jews spoke and wrote only in Greek,
these books were never recorded in Hebrew, and thus, seen as inauthentic, and thus, removed.
When Luther came along and began studying Scripture, seeking to reform the Church to
its earliest roots, he naturally looked to the Jews of his day, believing that they had
the oldest, most authentic version of Scripture.
This was unfortunately not correct, as the Masoretic Text is actually about 1000 years
younger than the Septuagint, and so he falsely concluded that the Catholic Church must have
added inauthentic books to justify our doctrines.
And so, following medieval Jews rather than the ancient Church, when Luther and the other
Protestants issued a translation of the Bible, they removed seven books that had guided Christians
since the beginning, leaving their total at just 66.
A decision, unlike the Orthodox Churches, that signifies a distinct break from Tradition.
It’s an example of how, even though Catholics and Orthodox Christians can disagree on some
things, we’ve never really too far apart.
While we would argue that the canon was set in 397 and we have remained faithful to that
tradition for more than 1600 years, we can also recognize some truth in the plurality
of ancient canons: technically speaking, the canon was never actually promulgated at an
Ecumenical Council until Trent, and so the East has always had its own distinct and completely
valid method from ours.
The idea of REMOVING texts from the canon, however, of taking it upon oneself to revise
the local councils of one’s own Church, going against a tradition that had existed
since before the time of Christ… that’s a bit more problematic, and ultimately the
attitude that doomed the Reformation.
Who are we, especially when dealing with Scripture, to believe that we know more than our spiritual
mothers and fathers that came before us and compiled this incredible book?
God may not have given us an official list, but when Christians do the same thing for more than
1000 years… it’s probably good not to mess with it.
Good discussion and the post avoids a lot of the popular level apologetics I see. However, I disagree for the following reasons:

-first, Jesus mentions the Jewish canon which was not as much in question as later writings might have us believe.




….from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary.


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. Crossway Bibles, 2016, p. Lk 11:51.

Abel is slewn in the first book Genesis and Zechariah is killed in the last book of the Jewish ordering 2 chronicles.

The Jews were charged with keeping the oracles of God:

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. Crossway Bibles, 2016, p. Ro 3:1–2.

Yet Jesus observed Hanukkah which is not found in the Jewish canon.
Josephus mentions I believe 22 books. Other Jewish writers mention 24 books. The difference is what you do with Ruth and lamentations. They were often attached to Judges and Jeremiah respectively.

There was an academy at Jamnia That met in the mid to late second century that is often referenced to as establishing and closing the Jewish canon. However, this hypothesis is now largely rejected because the academy did not discuss any of the books of the apocrypha but rather discussed Esther or perhaps the Song of Songs. Add to the matter the discussion was whether those books made the hands ceremonially unclean. And the larger part of the OT had already been laid up in the temple. Therefore there was no discussion if other books were to be admitted. Lastly the academy did not have any authority to make a new Canon.

Athanasius actually mentions 67 books as he includes Baruch which was often attached to Jeremiah in the LXX (Septuagint). It is likely he did not know that Baruch was not considered as part of Jewish canon. While Athanasius rejected the apocrypha as canon (he would not have used that term as it is a later adjective) he thought they were useful for reading and instruction. Which I would add is the Lutheran and Anglican position of the apocrypha. Our liturgies use the Song of the Three Children in Matins and the classic books of common prayer at morning prayer.

Jerome rejected the apocrypha as well stating “. . . And here begins the book of Judith. It is not to be counted as scripture”. Yet, as one can tell he included the apocrypha in his translation, the Latin Vulgate.

The LXX originally meant the Torah. There is not a singular LXX of the prophets and writings that I am aware of. It is true that when the NT quotes the OT it is usually from a version of the LXX. The LXX is believed to reflect an older textual tradition than the Masoritic text. Yet it would be inaccurate to state that the MSS invented a new text. Rather they standardized a system of vowel pointing since semetic alphabets do not have vowels. This was probably to save space. Add to that there are quotations of the Ot in the NT that appear to come from the Targum, which are a syriac paraphrase.

So in conclusion the issue of the apocrypha is a bit complicated. Luther never removed books but rather regulated them to an appendix. He was hardly alone as he was following Jerome, Athanasius and his contemporaries such as cardinal Carjetan to name a few. So if one is concerned that their Bible is somehow altered it is not. Read the apocrypha for yourself. There is useful instruction to be found. Yet even Rome knows these books are inferior and that is why they refer to them as Deuterocanon meaning second canon. Or you can just refer to them as I do as pious writings.

Fun fact, the KJV included the apocrypha in an appendix until the mid 19th century. Cambridge still publishes a version with the apocrypha to this day.
 
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