Texas Removes 1 Million Registered Voters

[Ana the Ist]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/4849711-texas-voter-roll-purge-million/amp/

Well who did they remove you might ask...

Dead people.
People who moved.
Convicted criminals.
7000 non US citizens.

The idea that 7000 noncitizens were able to register in the first place is pretty wild.

How did that happen? Is it like AZ where you don't have to prove citizenship to vote?

The nerve of Democrats suggest there's no evidence of noncitizens voting. We have evidence 7000 minimum intended to in Texas.

At this point January 6th is looking more like their fault. I understand there's no evidence of fraud (or not much) but that's because they don't require evidence to vote. Can't find a crime that can be pulled off without evidence.

 

[wing2000]

Nearly 7,000 were noncitizens who had registered illegally, and about 6,000 were convicted felons unable to vote.

How did that happen? I'm curious to see the data to validate the Governor's claim...and take a look at Texas Registration procedures.

 

[iluvatar5150]

The nerve of Democrats suggest there's no evidence of noncitizens voting. We have evidence 7000 minimum intended to in Texas.

No, not necessarily:

"According to the governor’s office, of the nearly 6,500 noncitizens removed from the voter rolls, about 1,930 have a voter history."​

We don't yet know how or they registered. Maybe they intended to vote; maybe they didn't. We also don't know what steps they've taken to verify the accuracy of these numbers.

At this point January 6th is looking more like their fault.

lol, now there's a good faith argument.

 

[DaisyDay]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/4849711-texas-voter-roll-purge-million/amp/

Well who did they remove you might ask...

Dead people.
People who moved.
Convicted criminals.
7000 non US citizens.

The idea that 7000 noncitizens were able to register in the first place is pretty wild.

How did that happen? Is it like AZ where you don't have to prove citizenship to vote?

The nerve of Democrats suggest there's no evidence of noncitizens voting. We have evidence 7000 minimum intended to in Texas.

At this point January 6th is looking more like their fault. I understand there's no evidence of fraud (or not much) but that's because they don't require evidence to vote. Can't find a crime that can be pulled off without evidence.

Abbott has been the governor for nearly 20 years. How did he let this happen?

I disagree that Jan6 was his fault, though.

Meanwhile, to further discourage vote registration:

Texas Republicans accused of intimidation after raiding homes over voter fraud claims

League of United Latin American Citizens calls on US justice department to look into raids on at least three members

www.theguardian.com

 

[Ana the Ist]

Abbott has been the governor for nearly 20 years. How did he let this happen?

Politics I imagine.

I disagree that Jan6 was his fault, though.

As do I, clearly he isn't the one making efforts to ensure noncitizens can vote.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

No, not necessarily:

"According to the governor’s office, of the nearly 6,500 noncitizens removed from the voter rolls, about 1,930 have a voter history."​

We don't yet know how or they registered. Maybe they intended to vote; maybe they didn't. We also don't know what steps they've taken to verify the accuracy of these numbers.




lol, now there's a good faith argument.

And, just because these people were removed for being "non-citizens" doesn't even actually mean they were. Texas law has many ways in which a person's voting eligibility can be challenged for being a non-citizen. It is the responsibility of the accused to prove that they are a citizen once challenged. If they fail to do this within 30 days of the challenge they are automatically removed. So, it could be that many of these people simply didn't respond to the challenge, not that they actually are non-citizens.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, not necessarily:

"According to the governor’s office, of the nearly 6,500 noncitizens removed from the voter rolls, about 1,930 have a voter history."​

We don't yet know how or they registered. Maybe they intended to vote; maybe they didn't. We also don't know what steps they've taken to verify the accuracy of these numbers.

Uh huh....there's also about what? Half a million others who are on an unsubstantiated list where they've been unable to provide proper documentation?

That number is likely to increase.

lol, now there's a good faith argument.

Ok....you got me. I apologize. Obviously Dems aren't responsible for Jan 6th. That's despite the pipe bomb mystery. Despite Pelosi admitting lack of additional support was her responsibility. Despite the obvious selective editing of footage.

Allow me to make the good faith argument, Democrats have been making an argument about the integrity of federal presidential elections for years now....even before Trump.

There's no evidence of noncitizens voting (at least beyond the odd 1 to 100 cases any given election). That's the claim they make. Then the other day I see this thread talking about how Republicans are trying to remove some 40,000 registered voters in AZ. It's predictable but it's being called voter suppression in the article.

But the article also demonstrates the problem....it doesn't require any proof of citizenship to register to vote for the president. Seriously. It only requires proof of residence....which can be given several ways without any citizenship. It does ask the voter to check a box on whether or not they are a citizen....but that's just an honor system.

So, of course I now wonder....just how many states don't require any proof of citizenship....and why? That's the one thing you should absolutely require to vote in a federal election. It's far more important than residence.

Is that a better more honest good faith argument?

 

[Ana the Ist]

And, just because these people were removed for being "non-citizens" doesn't even actually mean they were.

Ok.

Texas law has many ways in which a person's voting eligibility can be challenged for being a non-citizen.

I imagine they all involve the lack of citizenship being provided by the person registering to vote.

It is the responsibility of the accused to prove that they are a citizen once challenged.

What would be the other way to do this?

Build a massive government organization to track each and every citizen and noncitizen?

We have these places called "sanctuary cities" that would go to great lengths to avoid and not comply with those efforts.

It would have to be on the voter to provide the evidence.

 

[Ana the Ist]

And, just because these people were removed for being "non-citizens" doesn't even actually mean they were. Texas law has many ways in which a person's voting eligibility can be challenged for being a non-citizen. It is the responsibility of the accused to prove that they are a citizen once challenged. If they fail to do this within 30 days of the challenge they are automatically removed. So, it could be that many of these people simply didn't respond to the challenge, not that they actually are non-citizens.

Just out of curiosity....do you think it would be very difficult for me to get proof of citizenship illegally?

I'm aware of holes in our little system that can be exploited rather easily without raising any eyebrows. I would guess with pretty high confidence that I'm able to get SS# and birth certificates for 4-5 children a year that not only I didn't have...they don't actually exist at all. It's not super easy but it's much easier than you think. By the time I'm 60 I could be casting votes for 50 people easily in a state that doesn't require any picture ID if I were determined and unscrupulous.

 

[Ana the Ist]

How did that happen?

I'm embarrassed again @wing2000 , I don't recall if you were the one who was in that thread about the 40,000 AZ voters registered despite the fact they hadn't provided citizenship. It may have been essentialsaltes.

Do you not see this as a problem?

Much concern gets made regarding foreign influence in our elections and this seems like a potentially significant issue in that regard to me.

It doesn't seem as if people are paranoid or jumping to unreasonable conclusions if they believe illegals are voting in our elections, it's because quite honestly....they are. 7000 noncitizens were registered to vote (at least) and over a thousand had previously voted (at least) and that's just Texas alone.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

Just out of curiosity....do you think it would be very difficult for me to get proof of citizenship illegally?

I'm aware of holes in our little system that can be exploited rather easily without raising any eyebrows. I would guess with pretty high confidence that I'm able to get SS# and birth certificates for 4-5 children a year that not only I didn't have...they don't actually exist at all. It's not super easy but it's much easier than you think. By the time I'm 60 I could be casting votes for 50 people easily in a state that doesn't require any picture ID if I were determined and unscrupulous.

lol, give it a go.

 

[Ana the Ist]

lol, give it a go.

I'm not going to do that lol. You wouldn't actually like it if people did either....would you?

I know that after the 2016 election....a lot of people believed that "by any means necessary" was a valid political strategy that was justified by Trump's election....but we're pretty far from those days....we've seen what a Trump administration looks like....and while not entirely the same as other presidents, it's more in common than it is different.

And I'm sure you've seen what problems can arise out of the "any means necessary" crowd....political violence like CHAZ and the firebombing of police stations isn't a good thing.

So I'm pretty sure you're joking about this.....you believe in procedural fairness, right? It would be wrong for me to take advantage of weak election regulations to simply get a candidate of my choosing in office, right?

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

Ok.




I imagine they all involve the lack of citizenship being provided by the person registering to vote.





What would be the other way to do this?

Does the government have access to birth certificates or SS documentation and all of the information and authority to obtain them?

Build a massive government organization to track each and every citizen and noncitizen?

the government already does this. It's called the Social Security Administration.

We have these places called "sanctuary cities" that would go to great lengths to avoid and not comply with those efforts.

How many are in Texas?

It would have to be on the voter to provide the evidence.

But ANYONE can challenge a voter's eligibility for no actual reason whatsoever. That's really what I'm pointing out. Shouldn't it be on the accuser to at least provide some positive support for why a voter's eligibility should be challenged?

I just think it's interesting that the Right thinks this is perfectly okay for something that is a constitutional right.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Does the government have access to birth certificates or SS documentation and all of the information and authority to obtain them?

At the state level? Yes but I'd say it's a much more limited amount of resources available. While they have access so the social security administration because it's a federal program, I don't know what sort of access Texas would have to the birth certificates of citizens born outside Texas.

If you're asking why they don't do this for everyone....well, that's basically what's happening here with these folks being removed from voter registration to the dismay of Democrats.

I can understand you may prefer this as a method of verification of citizenship rather than placing the obligation on the citizens....but if so....you wouldn't be in any position to complain when 1 million registered voters are removed from registration rolls and denied the right to vote.....right?

How many are in Texas?

I can think of a couple off the top of my head....Austin definitely is....

The problem with Texas is they outlawed the formal adoption of sanctuary laws or policies....so it can't be done openly. Still, cities like Austin don't typically comply with ICE in any crimes involving the illegals they have....and I doubt that the noncitizens who registered to vote will face deportation either.

But ANYONE can challenge a voter's eligibility for no actual reason whatsoever. That's really what I'm pointing out.

Is that what you think is happening?

If you want the state to verify that people who vote are in fact legal voters....this is what it would look like. It would look like the state removing a bunch of voters from the registry once they found out the person registered didn't qualify to vote.

As you can see, it's a large and time consuming task since they still have half a million people they are trying to verify.

I just think it's interesting that the Right thinks this is perfectly okay for something that is a constitutional right.

It's a right for US citizens....

Do you think the citizens should be obligated to prove citizenship? Or do you think the state should be obligated to prove citizenship?

At this point it seems as if you don't think either side of this should verify citizenship of voters.

Who has the obligation in your opinion?

 

[iluvatar5150]

But the article also demonstrates the problem....it doesn't require any proof of citizenship to register to vote for the president. Seriously. It only requires proof of residence....which can be given several ways without any citizenship. It does ask the voter to check a box on whether or not they are a citizen....but that's just an honor system.

So, of course I now wonder....just how many states don't require any proof of citizenship....and why? That's the one thing you should absolutely require to vote in a federal election. It's far more important than residence.

Is that a better more honest good faith argument?

Perhaps. But while it seems like an obvious loophole, if it were actually being exploited to any notable degree, somebody should’ve been able to find evidence of it by now.

 

[ozso]

Good to know the US has such a reliable voting system. It's not like criminals and non US citizens are going to vote for a politician who's known for being soft on crime and immigration. The dead people lost their representation when Biden dropped out.

 

[DaisyDay]

Politics I imagine.
As do I, clearly he isn't the one making efforts to ensure noncitizens can vote.

He clearly hadn't been for the last 20 years - or he failed spectacularly. What's different now?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Perhaps. But while it seems like an obvious loophole, if it were actually being exploited to any notable degree, somebody should’ve been able to find evidence of it by now.

It's a lot of people to verify....and it seems pretty clear that the state of Texas is at least trying.

People forget that a person born to US citizens abroad will not necessarily have a birth certificate and consequently, a social security number. Obviously, any good parents would work through the system to acquire these things in those situations but I'm sure you also know....not everyone is a good parent.

Texas in particular also had a large scale birth certificate fraud case in recent years. Lemme see if I can find it....

https://apnews.com/article/e25d2d5a869922884faa7e81a029e860

Now that's just one group of fraudsters....and as I'm sure you know, there are always others engaged in the same crimes that aren't caught yet. There's also a significant market for ID theft that can be taken advantage of (I pointed out this in another thread, to which someone responded that it wasn't a bad thing because they were simply using the stolen ID information to work and therefore pay taxes).

Without some kind of widespread or uniform system for federal election registry....it's difficult to say exactly how big the problem is. Obviously if we just base assumptions on the results in Texas....it may not be more than 10-20 thousand nationwide.

I'd agree that it's probably not enough to decide elections one way or the other....but the lack of certainty over the size of the problem and lack of political will to fix it (which is an argument itself) creates a sort of political environment where people stop trusting election results and potentially engage in political violence. Obviously January 6th is an example....but I'm sure you saw the Gaza Protesters (let's not call them Palestinian protesters because many didn't seem Palestinian at all) outside the DNC and other political protest groups that could just as easily engage in political violence after a close election.

That's the bigger problem imo.

 

[Ana the Ist]

He clearly hadn't been for the last 20 years - or he failed spectacularly. What's different now?

I would imagine the sheer numbers of illegals entering Texas. We also saw Texas sending these illegals to destinations like Chicago and NYC....and for all the complaints about how this was done, it's difficult to argue it wasn't effective.

 

[wing2000]

...as I stated earlier, the Governor's claims need further examination. It seems Texas has a history...

".... the governor stressed that more than 6,500 “noncitizens” who shouldn’t have been registered were removed, and approximately 1,930 of those had a voting history.

Voter watchdogs such as Alice Clapman, senior counsel at the Brennan Center’s Voting Rights Program, said they want to know more about those voters, because Texas has wrongly flagged people as noncitizens before.

Erroneously flagging legal voters as noncitizens can occur when outdated information is obtained from naturalized citizens or if someone mistakenly checks the wrong box at the DMV, Clapman said.

In 2019, Texas officials flagged 95,000 voters whom they identified as “noncitizens” and accused broadly of voter fraud. After review, it turned out that many of the people identified on the rolls were naturalized citizens. The scandal resulted in the secretary of state resigning. The state abandoned the effort after numerous lawsuits, which resulted in the state setting new guidelines for future voter roll clean-ups.

Texas cleanup of voter rolls raises some questions

The governor said a million people have been dropped since 2021, including thousands of noncitizens. Experts caution against assuming that this is a sign of illegal voting.

www.votebeat.org