Trump’s Muslim ban

[Belk]

Have you happened to notice the changes in America and our entire system in the last 250 years?

It's not the same situation here as it was when people were coming from Ellis Island. If it were I wouldn't have any issues with open immigration.

Just to point out Ellis island closed in 1954, so 70 years ago.

But now we are in an economic crisis, the people coming aren't providing their own food and housing and our government when their own citizens are going hungry are trying to provide every single need and desire these "migrants" demand.

We are in an economic crisis?

I don't know about you but I'm loosing weight fast, my pants are falling off me every time I stand up because I can no longer afford to maintain my weight while our enemies eat from the fat of the land...

It's messed up.

I'm sorry, our enemies? Who are our enemies who are stealing your food?

 

[stevil]

I cited your gory approval of death in war. Regardless of whatever side one takes, it is vile and disgusting. You have a lot of crust being self righteous in your false enlightenment. The temporary restriction Trump had was on 7 nations so it is impossible that it was a “Moslem ban”.

I'm not talking about what Trump's administration actually and finally were able to implement without the courts rejecting it.

I'm talking about Trump's campaign promise. I'm just merely stating it as it was, quoting his words.
The thread is asking people if it is moral to "ban" Muslims. Check the title of the thread if you don't like that word.

I'm not telling anyone that I am righteous or enlightened.

What did Trump say
"Donald J Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States..."
Yes, he referred to himself in the third person. Weird I know, but I presume he was wanting his message to be crystal clear to the audience.
If you have problems with what he said there, then take that up with him, not me. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Ana the Ist]

1st amendment. Freedom of religion.

I'm all for freedom of religion.

Generally though, that's a freedom from government intervention in religion.

Any muslims capable respecting our laws are welcome....but that will violate their beliefs against criticism of Muhammad and many of his teachings.

They have to decide how much they are willing to tolerate and if they cannot...they shouldn't be allowed in.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If Islam was a "religion" they would make perfect neighbors. The fact of the matter is, you can't separate political Islam from the "pray to whatever God you want" portion of Islam.

Christians under the New Covenant believe God himself gave mankind a certain amount of liberty. We either use our liberty in the manner God requires, or we use that same liberty to reap burning coals on our heads.

Islam is a worldview and very political system that stands diametrically opposed to our own. I can see being neighborly with a Muslim majority nation... But you can't have two completely opposing systems operating in the same nation.

It depends....

As long as Islam isn't protected from criticism, they will have to learn to adapt their religion to our nation.

If they are protected from criticism....we're in trouble.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Have you happened to notice the changes in America and our entire system in the last 250 years?

I'm only about 50, so no, I haven't. Immigration has been under pretty steady laws in my lifetime. Do you recall living in this country before the 1965 immigration law? (I don't, of course.)

It's not the same situation here as it was when people were coming from Ellis Island. If it were I wouldn't have any issues with open immigration.

People didn't come "from" Ellis Island, but many passed through it. (Only for those passing throught the port of NY while it was operating, I don't think any of my ancestors did, though.)

People did get rejected in the "Ellis Island" era. Anarchists, communists, Chinese, the ill were all turned back by immigration officers.

But now we are in an economic crisis,

We are not.

the people coming aren't providing their own food and housing

Do you think past immigrants provided their own food and housing? That they got off the ships with tents and provisions?

Of course they didn't. They brought a modest amount of personal property (a trunk or three) and hopefully a little cash. When they got here they sought work and lodging, or perhaps bought a farm. It's really no different today.

and our government when their own citizens are going hungry are trying to provide every single need and desire these "migrants" demand.

Where is the hunger that is unfulfilled by the government and when did it start?

I don't know about you but I'm loosing weight fast, my pants are falling off me every time I stand up because I can no longer afford to maintain my weight while our enemies eat from the fat of the land...

It's messed up.

Sure, sure you are.

 

[stevil]

I'm all for freedom of religion.

Generally though, that's a freedom from government intervention in religion.

Any muslims capable respecting our laws are welcome....but that will violate their beliefs against criticism of Muhammad and many of his teachings.

They have to decide how much they are willing to tolerate and if they cannot...they shouldn't be allowed in.

There are already 4.45 million Muslims living in USA. I fail to see the problem.

 

[Ana the Ist]

There are already 4.45 million Muslims living in USA. I fail to see the problem.

Sure sure....

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

Stuff like that would be the problem....can't be killing your kids to retain your honor.

Stuff like this...

Terror attacks in France over Muhammad cartoons spark debate on secularism, Islamophobia - The Citadel Today

Muhammad Fraser-Rahim, Ph.D., an assistant professor in The Citadel Department of Intelligence and Security Studies is quoted in this article.

today.citadel.edu

Can't be getting all worked up over people drawing Muhammad or criticizing your religion and threatening to kill people or actually doing it.

Stuff like this...

Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando: Remembering the victims of June 12, 2016

Family and friends and our community remember the victims of Orlando’s Pulse nightclub massacre – the 49 lives lost on June 12, 2016. Here are their stories.

www.orlandosentinel.com

Can't be shooting up the gay clubs on behalf of ISIS or whoever....

Does my post make sense now or not?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm only about 50, so no, I haven't. Immigration has been under pretty steady laws in my lifetime. Do you recall living in this country before the 1965 immigration law? (I don't, of course.)

Me neither.

People didn't come "from" Ellis Island, but many passed through it. (Only for those passing throught the port of NY while it was operating, I don't think any of my ancestors did, though.)

People did get rejected in the "Ellis Island" era. Anarchists, communists, Chinese, the ill were all turned back by immigration officers.

We are not.

Well it depends upon what you call a crisis I guess.

Do you think past immigrants provided their own food and housing? That they got off the ships with tents and provisions?

Yes...they did.

City signs $77M contract with hotels to house migrant families

Rooms will be available through the month of July.

ny1.com

They sure as heck didn't get a 77$ million dollar in taxpayer money hotel room.

Of course they didn't. They brought a modest amount of personal property (a trunk or three) and hopefully a little cash. When they got here they sought work and lodging, or perhaps bought a farm. It's really no different today.

Exclusive | Brutal Venezuelan gang violence spills into quiet suburb from the sanctuary city next door— despite efforts to keep migrants out

“I’m scared that this could happen in America,” one local source said.

nypost.com

Yeah sure...this violent Venezuelan gang just took over some apartment complexes.

See? They found housing....no doubt they'll begin their careers as brain surgeons next.

Where is the hunger that is unfulfilled by the government and when did it start?

Migrants Take All Free Thanksgiving Turkeys Intended For Struggling New Yorkers

Tensions continue to rise between city residents and migrants as city officials enact steep budget cuts to cope with the border crisis

scnr.com

Same place it's always been....usually in poor black communities that are now struggling harder.

Sure, sure you are.

Back at ya.

 

[stevil]

Sure sure....

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

Stuff like that would be the problem....can't be killing your kids to retain your honor.

Stuff like this...

Terror attacks in France over Muhammad cartoons spark debate on secularism, Islamophobia - The Citadel Today

Muhammad Fraser-Rahim, Ph.D., an assistant professor in The Citadel Department of Intelligence and Security Studies is quoted in this article.

today.citadel.edu

Can't be getting all worked up over people drawing Muhammad or criticizing your religion and threatening to kill people or actually doing it.

Stuff like this...

Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando: Remembering the victims of June 12, 2016

Family and friends and our community remember the victims of Orlando’s Pulse nightclub massacre – the 49 lives lost on June 12, 2016. Here are their stories.

www.orlandosentinel.com

Can't be shooting up the gay clubs on behalf of ISIS or whoever....

Does my post make sense now or not?

How many non Muslim USA citizens are going around killing other USA citizens?

I don't see Muslim people as being more dangerous that non Muslims.

 

[Hazelelponi]

It depends....

As long as Islam isn't protected from criticism, they will have to learn to adapt their religion to our nation.

If they are protected from criticism....we're in trouble.

That's interesting to consider.

But do you think criticism is that helpful? We have radicals in America and we have fully open challenges to more extreme portions of the ideology.

Are our radicals less radical than elsewhere? Or less numerous?

People will always act differently in numbers...

 

[Hazelelponi]

Since I did mention food kind of I just want to point out I don't believe the government owes me something here.

But what they do owe all of their citizens is common sense governance. That would solve every problem the right side portion of "we the people" have.

Try thinking things through and make good decisions. They pretend to have intelligence but it's clearly not being put to any use for the benefit of "we the people".

That's what I want to see. Just common sense.

Just a little hey, let's not let terrorists who want to destroy us into this country, let's not print money like water, let's work on not collapsing as a nation economically, and let's not let our enemies run the White House, it used to mean something.

I know the little guy can't do much, but we need to figure out how to get some sense back in our government.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Since I did mention food kind of I just want to point out I don't believe the government owes me something here.

OK.

But what they do owe all of their citizens is common sense governance.

You seem to be using "they" to refer to the government. Common sense is vastly overrated, but what is "common sense" about excluding people of any particular religion, or of a nation because their nation is predominantly of a particular religion?

That would solve every problem the right side portion of "we the people" have.

Unlikely. Solving real problems requires real work and reasoning, not just "common sense".

Try thinking things through and make good decisions. They pretend to have intelligence but it's clearly not being put to any use for the benefit of "we the people".

Have you switched your "they" up? Governments aren't beings, so they don't have "intelligence". (Intelligence agencies, but that is a different meaning of the word.) In the first sentence of the you might be addressing the other posters. Are you claiming they (the other posters) are pretending to have intelligence? This pair of sentences is quite confused and confusing.

That's what I want to see. Just common sense.

A vastly overrated notion.

Just a little hey, let's not let terrorists who want to destroy us into this country,

We have a terrorist watch list for known or suspected terrorists.

let's not print money like water, let's work on not collapsing as a nation economically,

Unrelated to the topic of the thread.

and let's not let our enemies run the White House, it used to mean something.

This is why I oppose the election of the Putinists and their lackeys and fellow travelers to high office. Islamic terrorists (the enemies you seem to fear here) aren't anywhere near "running the White House".

I know the little guy can't do much, but we need to figure out how to get some sense back in our government.

There are some unserious people in Congress who do nothing but churn chaos. Not reelecting them would seem to be one of those things the "little guy" could do.

 

[wing2000]

I am proposing we ban this people we don’t want.

And "this people" are who exactly?

 

[rturner76]

Have you happened to notice the changes in America and our entire system in the last 250 years?

It's not the same situation here as it was when people were coming from Ellis Island. If it were I wouldn't have any issues with open immigration.

But now we are in an economic crisis, the people coming aren't providing their own food and housing and our government when their own citizens are going hungry are trying to provide every single need and desire these "migrants" demand.

I don't know about you but I'm loosing weight fast, my pants are falling off me every time I stand up because I can no longer afford to maintain my weight while our enemies eat from the fat of the land...

It's messed up.

I think you exaggerate. How can we be in an economic crisis when we have the most robust economy in the entire world? I just five minutes ago was looking at Forbes India which tracks GDP and other stats all over the globe.

• 
  
• Nominal GDP in Current U.S. Dollars: $28.78 trillion3
• PPP Adjusted GDP in Current International Dollars: $28.78 trillion4
• GDP Growth: 2.7%5
• Nominal GDP Per Capita in Current U.S. Dollars: $85,370

The second runner up is China and look at how much better we do:

• Nominal GDP in Current U.S. Dollars: $18.53 trillion3
• PPP Adjusted GDP in Current International Dollars: $35.29 trillion4
• GDP Growth: 4.6%5
• Nominal GDP Per Capita in Current U.S. Dollars: $13,140

Can you see the difference in the per capita GDP. We are killing it. Let's look at number three:

Germany

• Nominal GDP in Current U.S. Dollars: $4.59 trillion3
• PPP Adjusted GDP in Current International Dollars: $5.69 trillion4
• GDP Growth: 0.2%5
  International Monetary Fund. "Real GDP Growth: Annual Percent Change."
• Nominal GDP Per Capita in Current U.S. Dollars: $54,290

We are out of the stratusphere compared to number three. We have the biggest economy, the most money, and our banks finance investment all over the globe. I believe that you may not be able to sufficiently feed your family but that is more of a personal problem than a problem of immigration unless you are a berry picker, your job is not at risk. 9 out of 10 businesses would rather employ American citizens or red card holders than hire illegal foreign labor. Mostly it's migrant farm workers that get jobs on the farms and that's why we have strawberries two pounds for $5. Would you rather pay $10 for a half pound of union labor strawberries? It is the fact that we have immigrant labor that we get affordable for. The prices have gone up but so have the prices of movies, fast food, apartment, and cars. I can fill my cart at costs for 100 bucks and eat most of the month. I don't think you can do that in any other country.

Plus if you are starving as you say, you should have a low enough income to qualify for SNAP. You can feed your family all month with one SNAP payment. We have that program so that no American citizen needs to starve. I understand and feel for you that one day you could lose your white majoritybut fear not. White males will still be in full control of the banking, insurance, and healthcare industries. Those are our biggest moneymakers. We don't produce products anymore, we produce dollars and as far as I'm concerned everyone's welcome to come to live the American dream just like our forefathers did. We are a nation of immigrants and still are. This whole thing works because people come here, work hard, and start their own businesses. We need them and they need us. I don't think we need totally open borders but we need to calm down because we all came from an immigrant family and 1/4 of this country WAS Mexico until we took it by force so who are the real villains?

 

[RileyG]

I'm all for freedom of religion.

Generally though, that's a freedom from government intervention in religion.

Any muslims capable respecting our laws are welcome....but that will violate their beliefs against criticism of Muhammad and many of his teachings.

They have to decide how much they are willing to tolerate and if they cannot...they shouldn't be allowed in.

Well said.

 

[rturner76]

Well said.

It's a well-said stereotype that we shouldn't subscribe to. There is a vast difference between Muslims raised in an Islamic Theocracy and American Muslims. There is no reason why we should believe that they don't seek the same American dream as all immigrants. Let's not forget that each and every American today has an immigrant background. NOT ONLY THAT but I'm sure you are aware that there have been far more terrorist attacks on American by white supremacists than any Muslim. It would be more productive to ban all white racists than Muslims.

Also, are you aware that the Catholic Church financed Muhammed's war against the Pagans? the only problem was that he received his own revelation and wrote it in the Quran while he fasted in a cave for 40 days. He split off from them but he always called Jews and Christians "People of the book" Don't vilify them, try to understand than and you will make much more progress as a pilgrim.

Even though Muslims don't recognize the diety of Christ they do acknowledge that is IS the risen Christ. We are not so far apart and we are not their superiors. They are our equals though evangelical Christianity would have them labeled as demons, they are human beings with the same wants and needs as all of us.

 

[rturner76]

It depends....

As long as Islam isn't protected from criticism, they will have to learn to adapt their religion to our nation.

If they are protected from criticism....we're in trouble.

Have you seen many American Muslims attacking and bombing innocent people lately? No, it's more likely to be a white supremacist. So maybe we should ban white people from entering the country. CHeck it out:

• Right-wing extremist terror incidents in the U.S. have been increasing since the mid-2000s, but the past six years have seen their sharpest rise yet. There were just seven right-wing terror incidents in the period 2005-2007, but by 2017-2019 there were 27, which increased to 40 in 2020-2022.
• The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) Center on Extremism (COE) has documented 67 domestic terror incidents by right-wing extremists in the United States from 2017 to 2022. These include successful terrorist attacks, failed terrorist attacks and foiled terrorist plots.
• You are being redirected...

Should we be more afraid of Muslims or right-wingers?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Have you seen many American Muslims attacking and bombing innocent people lately?

Lately? No.

I already debunked the white supremacist terrorist myth long ago. Piece by piece I went through the ADL's list and found all the bogus incidents they included in it.

Should we be more afraid of Muslims or right-wingers?

Muslims, definitely....let me refer you to FBI director Wray and his concerns about the terrorists crossing the southern border. They ain't white supremacists.

You have international criminal human smuggling organization with ties to ISIS and other real terrorist organizations actively trying to get across our southern border....and likely have.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Let's not forget that each and every American today has an immigrant background.

That's a pretty meaningless statement. Even the native Americans came from somewhere else on a long enough timeline. Who cares?

Also, are you aware that the Catholic Church financed Muhammed's war against the Pagans? the only problem was that he received his own revelation and wrote it in the Quran while he fasted in a cave for 40 days.

Muhammad was illiterate.

Try learning something about these people before you become their advocate.

Don't vilify them, try to understand than and you will make much more progress as a pilgrim.

The irony of this statement when you didn't even know Muhammad was illiterate.

they are human beings with the same wants and needs as all of us.

I know Muslims and I like Muslims....but to pretend there's nothing extreme and intolerant about their religion that can become very dangerous and demanding upon the political will of a nation is pretty silly at this point. I'd suggest you actually learn what they believe but I know you won't.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think you exaggerate. How can we be in an economic crisis when we have the most robust economy in the entire world? I just five minutes ago was looking at Forbes India which tracks GDP and other stats all over the globe.

• 
  
• Nominal GDP in Current U.S. Dollars: $28.78 trillion3
• PPP Adjusted GDP in Current International Dollars: $28.78 trillion4
• GDP Growth: 2.7%5
• Nominal GDP Per Capita in Current U.S. Dollars: $85,370

The second runner up is China and look at how much better we do:

• Nominal GDP in Current U.S. Dollars: $18.53 trillion3
• PPP Adjusted GDP in Current International Dollars: $35.29 trillion4
• GDP Growth: 4.6%5
• Nominal GDP Per Capita in Current U.S. Dollars: $13,140

Can you see the difference in the per capita GDP. We are killing it. Let's look at number three:

Germany

• Nominal GDP in Current U.S. Dollars: $4.59 trillion3
• PPP Adjusted GDP in Current International Dollars: $5.69 trillion4
• GDP Growth: 0.2%5
  International Monetary Fund. "Real GDP Growth: Annual Percent Change."
• Nominal GDP Per Capita in Current U.S. Dollars: $54,290

We are out of the stratusphere compared to number three. We have the biggest economy, the most money, and our banks finance investment all over the globe. I believe that you may not be able to sufficiently feed your family but that is more of a personal problem than a problem of immigration unless you are a berry picker, your job is not at risk. 9 out of 10 businesses would rather employ American citizens or red card holders than hire illegal foreign labor. Mostly it's migrant farm workers that get jobs on the farms and that's why we have strawberries two pounds for $5. Would you rather pay $10 for a half pound of union labor strawberries? It is the fact that we have immigrant labor that we get affordable for. The prices have gone up but so have the prices of movies, fast food, apartment, and cars. I can fill my cart at costs for 100 bucks and eat most of the month. I don't think you can do that in any other country.

Plus if you are starving as you say, you should have a low enough income to qualify for SNAP. You can feed your family all month with one SNAP payment. We have that program so that no American citizen needs to starve. I understand and feel for you that one day you could lose your white majoritybut fear not. White males will still be in full control of the banking, insurance, and healthcare industries. Those are our biggest moneymakers. We don't produce products anymore, we produce dollars and as far as I'm concerned everyone's welcome to come to live the American dream just like our forefathers did. We are a nation of immigrants and still are. This whole thing works because people come here, work hard, and start their own businesses. We need them and they need us. I don't think we need totally open borders but we need to calm down because we all came from an immigrant family and 1/4 of this country WAS Mexico until we took it by force so who are the real villains?

I've noticed that like you....many posters this year are referring to GDP as an indicator of economic health.

Most of them don't seem to have the first clue what GDP refers to.

Do you?