Trump’s Muslim ban

[stevil]

It's a real conversation we need to have as a society...as a purely moral issue I would see no problems with it.

When delving into "moral" questions, you are obviously simply asking people for their opinions. There is no definitive way to discover moral truths.

I have pointed to the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This of course is non authoritative. You are free to disagree with it.

But typically many people think discrimination is undesirable, and many people want protections from discrimination.
Protection from discrimination based on:

• Race
• Colour
• Religious beliefs
• Gender
• Sexual Orientation
• Culture. etc

So many people would see an immigration policy based on discriminating people on any of the above as being "immoral"

You might not, and that's upto you. You get to define for yourself what you believe to be moral or immoral.

We have a society and a culture here to protect.

It's interesting to read this part of your post.
Protecting a culture.

Personally I don't think white Christian culture is under any threat in USA. You guys are by far the majority, it's not like your culture is in threat of dying out. Even if your country became majority Muslim, it still wouldn't threaten white Christian culture, you just wouldn't be the majority anymore. Take a look around your country. I'm sure there are many different cultures thriving there, Chinese, Indian, Native American, Spanish, you name it, the list goes on.

But you know, to try and slow down or stop people because you are worried they aren't white enough or Christian enough. I guess, that's up to you on whether to vote for parties that support that kind of policy.

But many people would see discrimination like that as being immoral.

 

[stevil]

From the Gulf War in 1991, to the Iraq war in 2003, to the “Arab Spring” debacle and humanitarian disaster, the US has made a shambles of the Middle East with a permanent flow of refugees. Trump had nothing to do with this and brought much of it to an end during his presidency. Now it is business as usual with wars and refugees fleeing upheaval.

What has any of this got to do with having a Muslim ban?

Don’t lecture about some temporary measure that actually helped put a pause in death and destruction.

I'm not lecturing anyone, just pointing out some facts.
This thread is asking people to offer their opinion on whether implementing a Muslim ban is moral or not.

 

[Adam56]

Nobody was rejected from Ellis Islandwherethe Europeans landed but the "crisis is on the southern border where brown people seek a new life like the Europeans did on Ellis Island

Not only that. Blacks were not coming to America out of choice but as chained-up slaves for sale. I would not call that immigration but forced chattel slavery. At the same time, Europeans were given free passage through Ellis Island.


It matters to those seeking a new life, just like it matters to the Europeans at Ellis Island. However, I am glad that you admit that the lives of people of color don't matter. At least you are being honest. If more people would admit that the desire for a brown person who wants a new life doesn't matter, we could see who are white supremacists and who aren't. Do the lives of for example Polish people matter? According to your previous post they would matter much more than anyone with melonin in their skin.

People of color do matter. We’re you born in the USA? I bet u were.

 

[Lukaris]

What has any of this got to do with having a Muslim ban?


I'm not lecturing anyone, just pointing out some facts.
This thread is asking people to offer their opinion on whether implementing a Muslim ban is moral or not.

I pointed out that decades of destructive interventionism has created social chaos and a perpetual refugee problem. In relation to that, a temporary restriction ( not a ban) to guard against terrorism was put in place. I also pointed out that this measure actually was a small step in restoring stability so people might not have to be refugees. Your alleged focus is either downright false or ignorant.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Here is the reality that flies in the face of the thread title

I'm glad you agree that the ban in the OP would be unconstitutional.

 

[stevil]

I pointed out that decades of destructive interventionism has created social chaos and a perpetual refugee problem. In relation to that, a temporary restriction ( not a ban) to guard against terrorism was put in place. I also pointed out that this measure actually was a small step in restoring stability so people might not have to be refugees. Your alleged focus is either downright false or ignorant.

I've pointed out that Trump campaigned on a total Muslim ban, this wasn't false nor ignorant, it was simply stating a fact.
Those were his words "Donald J Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States..."
You can argue the point as to whether "a complete shutdown" means a temporary restriction or a ban. I have no interest in quibbling over words like this.

USA wasn't at any immediate danger of an Islamic based terrorist threat (as far as we know), this fear mongering was purely for campaigning purposes, instill fear in people to get them off their bums and into the polling booths. The issue was fabricated.

The measure, the ban, did not stabalise anything, there was no issue to begin with. It actually destabalised those people whom had plans to be in USA during that period.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I'm glad you agree that the ban in the OP would be unconstitutional.

Avid imagination or adult beverages?

 

[Adam56]

Nobody was rejected from Ellis Islandwherethe Europeans landed but the "crisis is on the southern border where brown people seek a new life like the Europeans did on Ellis Island

Not only that. Blacks were not coming to America out of choice but as chained-up slaves for sale. I would not call that immigration but forced chattel slavery. At the same time, Europeans were given free passage through Ellis Island.


It matters to those seeking a new life, just like it matters to the Europeans at Ellis Island. However, I am glad that you admit that the lives of people of color don't matter. At least you are being honest. If more people would admit that the desire for a brown person who wants a new life doesn't matter, we could see who are white supremacists and who aren't. Do the lives of for example Polish people matter? According to your previous post they would matter much more than anyone with melonin in their skin.

Blacks aren’t enslaved anymore. Their lives do matter but America has the right to seal its borders and be practice discrimination in who comes into this country it’s not a free for all.

 

[Adam56]

When delving into "moral" questions, you are obviously simply asking people for their opinions. There is no definitive way to discover moral truths.

I have pointed to the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This of course is non authoritative. You are free to disagree with it.

But typically many people think discrimination is undesirable, and many people want protections from discrimination.
Protection from discrimination based on:

• Race
• Colour
• Religious beliefs
• Gender
• Sexual Orientation
• Culture. etc.

The average person doesn’t think long term. Discriminating on such factors does make sense.

 

[JosephZ]

There are non violent sects associated with Islam who don't use the same holy books and will never be violent

All Muslims use the same holy book, the Qur'an. It's the different exegesis of the Quran/tafsirs and differing interpretations or opinions of the hadith narrations that result in there being multiple branches and subgroups of Islam.

There's a few sects associated with Islam that are fine,

You seem to have it backward. There are only a few sects in Islam that are associated with violent extremism. The vast majority of Muslims do not belong to these sects and reject violence against innocent people.

It's interesting that Trump's ban failed to include Saudi Arabia, a Wahhabist regime, and the country where 15 of the 19 hijackers on September 11th and the terrorist that attacked the Naval Air Station in Pensacola in December 2019 that left 3 US sailors dead and eight others wounded originated from.

 

[rturner76]

...


Of course they matter.

Do they matter as much as Europeans? I wonder because there were no rules that stopped Europeans from entering the US through Ellis Island but now we need to keep Mexicans out of the country. Especially considering that the Southwestern United states was owned by Mexico until the US took it by military force. Maybe they just want to come home? Somehow though, they are not worthy enough to enter our country. If their lives matter equally, please tell me why Europeans have had an open door to the US and Mexicans are not to be allowed in.

 

[Adam56]

Do they matter as much as Europeans? I wonder because there were no rules that stopped Europeans from entering the US through Ellis Island but now we need to keep Mexicans out of the country.

There used to be laws that allowed slavery, why aren’t you advocating those come back.

Especially considering that the Southwestern United states was owned by Mexico until the US took it by military force. Maybe they just want to come home? Somehow though, they are not worthy enough to enter our country. If their lives matter equally, please tell me why Europeans have had an open door to the US and Mexicans are not to be allowed in.

You don’t even care about Mexicans. You just want whites to lose their majority numbers out of resentment. You hate white people and it’s blatantly obvious.

 

[rturner76]

People of color do matter. We’re you born in the USA? I bet u were.

Yes I was but my great grandfather wasn't. I am a person of color but I also have white blood. My Swedish great-grandmother and father were let into this country with a boat ticket and a signature. Why was is fine for them but not ok for Mexicans and Muslims? Don't you know that since 9/11 there have been more terrorist attacks by white people than any Muslim organization? In fact the number of white terrorist attacks is staggering. So why should we not allow Muslims in, better still, why not let Mexicans in since everything from Texas to California WAS Mexico. They are not immigrants, this is their home. The Europeann's homes were much further away. Why should they be given more rights to immigrate than the people who were tho original occupants of the Southwest?

 

[Adam56]

Yes I was but my great grandfather wasn't. I am a person of color but I also have white blood. My Swedish great-grandmother and father were let into this country with a boat ticket and a signature. Why was is fine for them but not ok for Mexicans and Muslims? Don't you know that since 9/11 there have been more terrorist attacks by white people than any Muslim organization? In fact the number of white terrorist attacks is staggering. So why should we not allow Muslims in, better still, why not let Mexicans in since everything from Texas to California WAS Mexico. They are not immigrants, this is their home. The Europeann's homes were much further away. Why should they be given more rights to immigrate than the people who were tho original occupants of the Southwest?

Why do you think immigration is a right and not a privilege?

 

[rturner76]

There used to be laws that allowed slavery, why aren’t you advocating those come back.

I would never want forced immigration. This was never African land and when the Europeans tackled and shackled them, they were fine where they were. Only a white racist bigot would condone the return of slavery.

You don’t even care about Mexicans. You just want whites to lose their majority numbers out of resentment. You hate white people and it’s blatantly obvious.

Who are YOU to tell me what I care about? I'm glad you exposed yourself for the reason you don't want Mexicans and Muslims to be able to immigrate. So you can enjoy your white majority a little longer? It feels good to be a member of the controlling race, doesn't it? Knowing you will always be treated with the utmost respect and reverence. I care about Mexicans like I care about Native Americans and Africans who all have had their land, governments, and natural resources snatched by colonial Europeans. I thought it had died down but from your response, I see that Europeans still think they own anything they touch. And it's all there for them to rule, control, and exploit. God forbid a Mexican or a Muslim try to live the American dream right? Is that privilege reserved for only one ethnicity?

 

[rturner76]

Why do you think immigration is a right and not a privilege?

For the same reason that the Europeans in the late 19th and 20th century had a free license to immigrate. It was their right. Why can't people with melanin in their skin have the same right? The USA is capitalist, it's all about competition. We have to rise to the top to make sure our competitors don't take our jobs. Like cream, the best rise to the top. I'm not afraid of competition, I welcome it because I know what I am capable of. Those who want to rest on their privilege and don't think they deserve a hard days work will be passed over.

 

[Adam56]

I would never want forced immigration. This was never African land and when the Europeans tackled and shackled them, they were fine where they were. Only a white racist bigot would condone the return of slavery.

Who are YOU to tell me what I care about? I'm glad you exposed yourself for the reason you don't want Mexicans and Muslims to be able to immigrate. So you can enjoy your white majority a little longer? It feels good to be a member of the controlling race, doesn't it? Knowing you will always be treated with the utmost respect and reverence. I care about Mexicans like I care about Native Americans and Africans who all have had their land, governments, and natural resources snatched by colonial Europeans. I thought it had died down but from your response, I see that Europeans still think they own anything they touch. And it's all there for them to rule, control, and exploit. God forbid a Mexican or a Muslim try to live the American dream right? Is that privilege reserved for only one ethnicity?

Why do non whites think whites can’t control lands?

Whites built America but you just wanna gang up on the people who control this land. Why do people immigrate from Africa and Middle East to Europe but not the other way around? It’s because white societies built themselves better and you wanna leach off them,

 

[Adam56]

For the same reason that the Europeans in the late 19th and 20th century had a free license to immigrate. It was their right. Why can't people with melanin in their skin have the same right? The USA is capitalist, it's all about competition. We have to rise to the top to make sure our competitors don't take our jobs. Like cream, the best rise to the top. I'm not afraid of competition, I welcome it because I know what I am capable of. Those who want to rest on their privilege and don't think they deserve a hard days work will be passed over.

Nope? Immigration is a privilege not a right

 

[rturner76]

Nope? Immigration is a privilege not a right

A privilege for the colored and a right for the white agreed?

 

[Adam56]

A privilege for the colored and a right for the white agreed?

Nope, a privilege for all.

Why are you so determined to think everyone has a right to enter America?