• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Hands-on Trainee
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
38,479
22,080
30
Nebraska
✟883,320.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
From the fact that it is breathed-out by God (2 Tim 3:16) who by his very nature is the supreme authority over everything, right?
St. Paul was referring to the Old Testament (the Tanak) since the NT hasn't' been written yet. Heck, none of the gospels were written by the time 2 Timothy was written.
 
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Hands-on Trainee
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
38,479
22,080
30
Nebraska
✟883,320.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Eternal life is only by faith in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18).

Jesus made it pretty clear in Lk 16:19-31 that there is no altering of eternal destiny after physical death.

Prayer for the dead does not change anything.

Anything not in agreement with that is not the word of God.
Why did St. Paul and the early Christians pray for the dead then? Plenty of proof out there.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
30,131
7,767
North Carolina
✟366,845.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
St. Paul was referring to the Old Testament (the Tanak) since the NT hasn't' been written yet. Heck, none of the gospels were written by the time 2 Timothy was written.
See post #8.
 
Upvote 0

Servus

<><
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
29,706
15,963
Washington
✟1,037,934.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What do Catholics think of the bible?
From what I've gathered from numerous conversations with Catholics on the subject, the bible is a supplement to the dogma and tradition of the Catholic church.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KevinT
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,733
2,551
Perth
✟214,494.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
From what I've gathered from numerous conversations with Catholics on the subject, the bible is a supplement to the dogma and tradition of the Catholic church.
It is to head off exactly that kind of misconception that I wrote the OP and quoted from Dei Verbum.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KevinT
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
13,831
5,621
European Union
✟236,339.00
Country
Czech Republic
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Because the Septuagint and the Vulgate have errors of translation.
Dont you know that neither the Septuagint nor Vulgate are the translations of the Masoretic text, but of a different Hebrew text family?

We cannot simply compare it to the Hebrew text used in today's Bible and claim its a translation error. They were not translated from that text.
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
4,099
2,287
76
Paignton
✟93,524.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
2 Timothy 1:16-18.
The verses you mention say:

“16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found [me]. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day — and you know very well how many ways he ministered [to me] at Ephesus.” (2Ti 1:16-18 NKJV)

There is nothing in those words to say that Onesiphorus was dead at the time Paul wrote 2 Timothy. That's just an assumption. Your previous post said: "Why did St. Paul and the early Christians pray for the dead then? Plenty of proof out there." Where is this "plenty of proof?" All you have supplied is an occasion when Paul prayed for Onesiphorus and his household, with no indication that he (or they) were dead at the time.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,733
2,551
Perth
✟214,494.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I'm not quite following. Are you saying I've misunderstood what I've heard from Catholics regarding the bible vs dogma and tradition?
Reviewing the previous posts should clarify matters, as it should already be apparent, but it's possible you may have lost track of the conversation's context.
 
Upvote 0

Servus

<><
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
29,706
15,963
Washington
✟1,037,934.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Reviewing the previous posts should clarify matters, as it should already be apparent, but it's possible you may have lost track of the conversation's context.
I've been in numerous different conversations with Catholics regarding the bible and I remember the overall statements I've heard from them regarding the bible vs RC practice, dogma and tradition. And the summation is that RC dogma and tradition supercedes the bible.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,733
2,551
Perth
✟214,494.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I've been in numerous different conversations with Catholics regarding the bible and I remember the overall statements I've heard from them regarding the bible vs RC practice, dogma and tradition. And the summation is that RC dogma and tradition supercedes the bible.
But that is not so, and Dei Verbum says so. Have you read it?
 
Upvote 0

Servus

<><
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
29,706
15,963
Washington
✟1,037,934.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
But that is not so, and Dei Verbum says so. Have you read it?
No, I haven't had the chance. It looks pretty lengthy. What am I supposed to be looking for in it?

Also are you're saying I should disregard what I've heard from Catholics because of it?
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,733
2,551
Perth
✟214,494.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
No, I haven't had the chance. It looks pretty lengthy. What am I supposed to be looking for in it?

Also are you're saying I should disregard what I've heard from Catholics because of it?
I say nothing about what others have said to you, I was not present and did not hear any of it.

Dei Verbum is not long, a typical reader would get though it in 10 minutes or less.

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION
ON DIVINE REVELATION
DEI VERBUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED
BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965



CHAPTER III
SACRED SCRIPTURE, ITS DIVINE INSPIRATION AND INTERPRETATION


11. Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.(1) In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation. Therefore "all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind" (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text).

12. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.

To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to "literary forms." For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture. (7) For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another. (8)

But, since Holy Scripture must be read and interpreted in the sacred spirit in which it was written, (9) no less serious attention must be given to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture if the meaning of the sacred texts is to be correctly worked out. The living tradition of the whole Church must be taken into account along with the harmony which exists between elements of the faith. It is the task of exegetes to work according to these rules toward a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture, so that through preparatory study the judgment of the Church may mature. For all of what has been said about the way of interpreting Scripture is subject finally to the judgment of the Church, which carries out the divine commission and ministry of guarding and interpreting the word of God. (10)

13. In Sacred Scripture, therefore, while the truth and holiness of God always remains intact, the marvelous "condescension" of eternal wisdom is clearly shown, "that we may learn the gentle kindness of God, which words cannot express, and how far He has gone in adapting His language with thoughtful concern for our weak human nature." (11) For the words of God, expressed in human language, have been made like human discourse, just as the word of the eternal Father, when He took to Himself the flesh of human weakness, was in every way made like men.

CHAPTER IV
THE OLD TESTAMENT


14. In carefully planning and preparing the salvation of the whole human race the God of infinite love, by a special dispensation, chose for Himself a people to whom He would entrust His promises. First He entered into a covenant with Abraham (see Gen. 15:18) and, through Moses, with the people of Israel (see Ex. 24:8). To this people which He had acquired for Himself, He so manifested Himself through words and deeds as the one true and living God that Israel came to know by experience the ways of God with men. Then too, when God Himself spoke to them through the mouth of the prophets, Israel daily gained a deeper and clearer understanding of His ways and made them more widely known among the nations (see Ps. 21:29; 95:1-3; Is. 2:1-5; Jer. 3:17). The plan of salvation foretold by the sacred authors, recounted and explained by them, is found as the true word of God in the books of the Old Testament: these books, therefore, written under divine inspiration, remain permanently valuable. "For all that was written for our instruction, so that by steadfastness and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope" (Rom. 15:4).

15. The principal purpose to which the plan of the old covenant was directed was to prepare for the coming of Christ, the redeemer of all and of the messianic kingdom, to announce this coming by prophecy (see Luke 24:44; John 5:39; 1 Peter 1:10), and to indicate its meaning through various types (see 1 Cor. 10:12). Now the books of the Old Testament, in accordance with the state of mankind before the time of salvation established by Christ, reveal to all men the knowledge of God and of man and the ways in which God, just and merciful, deals with men. These books, though they also contain some things which are incomplete and temporary, nevertheless show us true divine pedagogy. (1) These same books, then, give expression to a lively sense of God, contain a store of sublime teachings about God, sound wisdom about human life, and a wonderful treasury of prayers, and in them the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way. Christians should receive them with reverence.

16. God, the inspirer and author of both Testaments, wisely arranged that the New Testament be hidden in the Old and the Old be made manifest in the New. (2) For, though Christ established the new covenant in His blood (see Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25), still the books of the Old Testament with all their parts, caught up into the proclamation of the Gospel, (3) acquire and show forth their full meaning in the New Testament (see Matt. 5:17; Luke 24:27; Rom. 16:25-26; 2 Cor. 14:16) and in turn shed light on it and explain it.

CHAPTER V
THE NEW TESTAMENT


17. The word of God, which is the power of God for the salvation of all who believe (see Rom. 1:16), is set forth and shows its power in a most excellent way in the writings of the New Testament. For when the fullness of time arrived (see Gal. 4:4), the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us in His fullness of graces and truth (see John 1:14). Christ established the kingdom of God on earth, manifested His Father and Himself by deeds and words, and completed His work by His death, resurrection and glorious Ascension and by the sending of the Holy Spirit. Having been lifted up from the earth, He draws all men to Himself (see John 12:32, Greek text), He who alone has the words of eternal life (see John 6:68). This mystery had not been manifested to other generations as it was now revealed to His holy Apostles and prophets in the Holy Spirit (see Eph. 3:4-6, Greek text), so that they might preach the Gospel, stir up faith in Jesus, Christ and Lord, and gather together the Church. Now the writings of the New Testament stand as a perpetual and divine witness to these realities.

18. It is common knowledge that among all the Scriptures, even those of the New Testament, the Gospels have a special preeminence, and rightly so, for they are the principal witness for the life and teaching of the incarnate Word, our savior.

The Church has always and everywhere held and continues to hold that the four Gospels are of apostolic origin. For what the Apostles preached in fulfillment of the commission of Christ, afterwards they themselves and apostolic men, under the inspiration of the divine Spirit, handed on to us in writing: the foundation of faith, namely, the fourfold Gospel, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.(1)

19. Holy Mother Church has firmly and with absolute constancy held, and continues to hold, that the four Gospels just named, whose historical character the Church unhesitatingly asserts, faithfully hand on what Jesus Christ, while living among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation until the day He was taken up into heaven (see Acts 1:1). Indeed, after the Ascension of the Lord the Apostles handed on to their hearers what He had said and done. This they did with that clearer understanding which they enjoyed (3) after they had been instructed by the glorious events of Christ's life and taught by the light of the Spirit of truth. (2) The sacred authors wrote the four Gospels, selecting some things from the many which had been handed on by word of mouth or in writing, reducing some of them to a synthesis, explaining some things in view of the situation of their churches and preserving the form of proclamation but always in such fashion that they told us the honest truth about Jesus.(4) For their intention in writing was that either from their own memory and recollections, or from the witness of those who "themselves from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the Word" we might know "the truth" concerning those matters about which we have been instructed (see Luke 1:2-4).

20. Besides the four Gospels, the canon of the New Testament also contains the epistles of St. Paul and other apostolic writings, composed under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, by which, according to the wise plan of God, those matters which concern Christ the Lord are confirmed, His true teaching is more and more fully stated, the saving power of the divine work of Christ is preached, the story is told of the beginnings of the Church and its marvelous growth, and its glorious fulfillment is foretold.

For the Lord Jesus was with His apostles as He had promised (see Matt. 28:20) and sent them the advocate Spirit who would lead them into the fullness of truth (see John 16:13).

...
 
Upvote 0