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Where is our mandate to insist that the secular world (i.e. government) legislate Christian morality?

Gnarwhal

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I'm just trying to understand this so I can better explain my position to my protestant libertarian friend who thinks things like drug use, abortion, and sodomy are morally wrong but must legally be allowed for people to be truly free. He's a hardcore conservative yet I don't see that position to be much different than Biden's who says he personally opposes abortion but thinks it needs to be legal.

I don't know how to best explain what I understand as the Catholic position that we have a duty as long as we're on this earth to save souls and that means using temporal apparatuses to protect everyone, whether they're part of the Church or not, from the effects of these objectively evil things.

Is there a paragraph in the catechism that lays it out? An encyclical? Is there even a term for this position?
 

Unqualified

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Tempting word from a conservative? People do break the law even if illegal. Maybe fewer people would break the law that way.

but we are not truly free from obeying God. Putting people in prison just proliferates the whole money thing. Fine for the future but it will never happen, God won’t let it. The world is already lawless, and nothing is being done. But it may decide some of his presidential elections. It’s a humanist point of view and no God he has to deal with. That’s ultra conservative but sounds like a liberal.

its not Gods way, but we are not a God fearing country any more- half. It’s like apples and oranges. Hard to argue against. It’ll just bring mayhem. A free thinker but no God.
 
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fide

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I'm just trying to understand this so I can better explain my position to my protestant libertarian friend who thinks things like drug use, abortion, and sodomy are morally wrong but must legally be allowed for people to be truly free. He's a hardcore conservative yet I don't see that position to be much different than Biden's who says he personally opposes abortion but thinks it needs to be legal.

I don't know how to best explain what I understand as the Catholic position that we have a duty as long as we're on this earth to save souls and that means using temporal apparatuses to protect everyone, whether they're part of the Church or not, from the effects of these objectively evil things.

Is there a paragraph in the catechism that lays it out? An encyclical? Is there even a term for this position?
Reflections on the Natural Law (in the Catechism) might be helpful:
I. THE NATURAL MORAL LAW
1954 Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good. The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie:
The natural law is written and engraved in the soul of each and every man, because it is human reason ordaining him to do good and forbidding him to sin . . . But this command of human reason would not have the force of law if it were not the voice and interpreter of a higher reason to which our spirit and our freedom must be submitted.<Leo XIII, Libertas praestantissimum, 597>

1955 The “divine and natural” law<GS 89 # 1> shows man the way to follow so as to practice the good and attain his end. The natural law states the first and essential precepts which govern the moral life. It hinges upon the desire for God and submission to him, who is the source and judge of all that is good, as well as upon the sense that the other is one’s equal. Its principal precepts are expressed in the Decalogue. This law is called “natural,” not in reference to the nature of irrational beings, but because reason which decrees it properly belongs to human nature:
Where then are these rules written, if not in the book of that light we call the truth? In it is written every just law; from it the law passes into the heart of the man who does justice, not that it migrates into it, but that it places its imprint on it, like a seal on a ring that passes onto wax, without leaving the ring.<St. Augustine, De Trin. 14, 15, 21: PL 42,1052>
The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation.<St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. I>

1956 The natural law, present in the heart of each man and established by reason, is universal in its precepts and its authority extends to all men. It expresses the dignity of the person and determines the basis for his fundamental rights and duties:
For there is a true law: right reason. It is in conformity with nature, is diffused among all men, and is immutable and eternal; its orders summon to duty; its prohibitions turn away from offense .... To replace it with a contrary law is a sacrilege; failure to apply even one of its provisions is forbidden; no one can abrogate it entirely.<Cicero, Rep. III, 22, 33>

1957 Application of the natural law varies greatly; it can demand reflection that takes account of various conditions of life according to places, times, and circumstances. Nevertheless, in the diversity of cultures, the natural law remains as a rule that binds men among themselves and imposes on them, beyond the inevitable differences, common principles.

1958 The natural law is immutable and permanent throughout the variations of history;<Cf. GS 10> it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, it cannot be destroyed or removed from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies:
Theft is surely punished by your law, O Lord, and by the law that is written in the human heart, the law that iniquity itself does not efface.<St. Augustine, Conf. 2, 4, 9: PL 32, 678>

1959 The natural law, the Creator’s very good work, provides the solid foundation on which man can build the structure of moral rules to guide his choices. It also provides the indispensable moral foundation for building the human community. Finally, it provides the necessary basis for the civil law with which it is connected, whether by a reflection that draws conclusions from its principles, or by additions of a positive and juridical nature.

1960 The precepts of natural law are not perceived by everyone clearly and immediately. In the present situation sinful man needs grace and revelation so moral and religious truths may be known “by everyone with facility, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error.”<Pius XII, Humani generis: DS 3876; cf. Dei Filius 2: DS 3005> The natural law provides revealed law and grace with a foundation prepared by God and in accordance with the work of the Spirit.
 
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Lady Bug

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I'm just trying to understand this so I can better explain my position to my protestant libertarian friend who thinks things like drug use, abortion, and sodomy are morally wrong but must legally be allowed for people to be truly free. He's a hardcore conservative yet I don't see that position to be much different than Biden's who says he personally opposes abortion but thinks it needs to be legal.

I don't know how to best explain what I understand as the Catholic position that we have a duty as long as we're on this earth to save souls and that means using temporal apparatuses to protect everyone, whether they're part of the Church or not, from the effects of these objectively evil things.

Is there a paragraph in the catechism that lays it out? An encyclical? Is there even a term for this position?
I'm not good (off the top of my head at least) with finding something in the Catechism (I have no doubt there's stuff about formal/material cooperation with evil) but Romans 1:32 does talk about knowing that something is a sin and worthy of death but still "approving" of those who do those things (the sins).

While someone may say they "oppose it but it should be legal anyway," it isn't exactly like Romans 1:32 but it's kind of close. Others may disagree, though.
 
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zippy2006

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Is there a paragraph in the catechism that lays it out? An encyclical? Is there even a term for this position?
It's a complicated subject. "Integralism" is one form of what you are talking about.

In my opinion what Christians have found is that there is no simple reason for why a secular government must legislate Christian morality. Ratzinger's, "If you don't there will be significant problems," is the most cogent reason I have heard.

Traditionally we would say that we can promote moral laws without promoting Christian morality (and this is one of the basic questions at stake). Thus we can argue for just laws via the natural law, or else we can argue for a more distinctively Christian morality in the public sphere via the Christian patrimony of the West. Both ways are viable, so long as we are talking about the West.

Incidentally, Trent Horn recently posted a video which opposed "political Christianity" - something very similar to the second argument I propose. Curiously, that argument has had some purchase on the secular mind, but for Trent it ends up creating problems of its own. (I think his position is simple-minded, but it is illustrative of some of the dynamics involved.)

...It should go without saying that the third way is simply converting the world to Christianity, and also that this can never be a coercive systematic-governmental option. There is a real tension between faith and reason that comes into play here.
 
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I don’t know.

Abortion should be illegal because it kills another human being. That’s not religious nor political, it’s a life issue.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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"As Catholics and Americans, we are blessed to be able to participate in our nation’s political and public life."

Some reflections an what that means:

 
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Akita Suggagaki

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And I wonder if we are really talking about evangelization.
See chapter two.

62. With her social teaching the Church seeks to proclaim the Gospel and make it present in the complex network of social relations. It is not simply a matter of reaching out to man in society — man as the recipient of the proclamation of the Gospel — but of enriching and permeating society itself with the Gospel.


70. The Church has the right to be a teacher for mankind, a teacher of the truth of faith: the truth not only of dogmas but also of the morals whose source lies in human nature itself and in the Gospel.


 
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Bob Crowley

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This boils down to the question of church-state relations. When I asked my old pastor what he thought about the separation of church and state he said "It comes straight from the devil".

The church should be able to have a lot more say in the ethics of the state, but you can bet your bottom dollar there is nothing the devil would want less. And he will use church-state separation to ensure the church is effectively neutered by the state.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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The church should be able to have a lot more say in the ethics of the state, but you can bet your bottom dollar there is nothing the devil would want less.
By "church" I take it you mean the vast gamut of Christian believers and not just the Catholic Church?

I believe a good secular argument can be made for many aspects of "Christian Morality" without resorting to religious language.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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This boils down to the question of church-state relations. When I asked my old pastor what he thought about the separation of church and state he said "It comes straight from the devil".

The church should be able to have a lot more say in the ethics of the state, but you can bet your bottom dollar there is nothing the devil would want less. And he will use church-state separation to ensure the church is effectively neutered by the state.
What it is - is in fact good for the Church.
This way no state can have authority over which Church is state run.
As the Church of England is run by the King or Queen as occurred by leaving the Pope.
 
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WarriorAngel

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I don’t know.

Abortion should be illegal because it kills another human being. That’s not religious nor political, it’s a life issue.
100% moral and not secular.
Secular politicians think they can mandate morality.
Amen

Even to the exclusion of actual science which states it is life from the beginning.

Life begets life. Unless someone is dead - and somehow conceives - then that's who whole different topic of weird.
A human has living tissues. Nothing in a living woman or man is 'just tissue' in conception.
All have a purpose to forward life.

Do we take other parts of the body that are viable??

A woman HAS NO RIGHT over another humans body.
She is only giving rental space for another human to live.
 
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David Lamb

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What it is - is in fact good for the Church.
This way no state can have authority over which Church is state run.
As the Church of England is run by the King or Queen as occurred by leaving the Pope.
I wouldn't say that the Church of England is "run by" the monarch. Kings and queens, even though they have the title "Defender of the Faith" do not have any say in the beliefs and practices of the Church of England. I should add that I don't think the idea of a "state church" is biblical anyway.
 
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Gnarwhal

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I wouldn't say that the Church of England is "run by" the monarch. Kings and queens, even though they have the title "Defender of the Faith" do not have any say in the beliefs and practices of the Church of England. I should add that I don't think the idea of a "state church" is biblical anyway.
I see your point, but I think one could argue that Judaism was in fact the state religion of the Kingdom of Israel, granted I know it wasn't called Judaism until after the Babylonian exile. At any rate, Scripture may not command it but it gives us an example of it within the context of what's implied as the one nation in biblical history that God personally signed off on. In a manner of speaking.
 
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RileyG

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100% moral and not secular.
Secular politicians think they can mandate morality.
Amen

Even to the exclusion of actual science which states it is life from the beginning.

Life begets life. Unless someone is dead - and somehow conceives - then that's who whole different topic of weird.
A human has living tissues. Nothing in a living woman or man is 'just tissue' in conception.
All have a purpose to forward life.

Do we take other parts of the body that are viable??

A woman HAS NO RIGHT over another humans body.
She is only giving rental space for another human to live.
Very well said. Thank you.
 
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