Miracles and saints

[Xeno.of.athens]

Agreed.. .and yet they worked miracles (Mt 7:22-23).

Nope, they say that they work miracles. That is far from working them.

 

[Clare73]

Nope, they say that they work miracles. That is far from working them.

You're reaching. . .

Jesus did not deny they worked miracles, he denied their faith was true.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You're reaching. . .

Jesus did not deny they worked miracles, he denied their faith was true.

Jesus said they worked lawlessness rather than miracles.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus said they worked lawlessness rather than miracles.

Jesus states no denial of their miracles in my Bible in Mt 7:22-23.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Jesus states no denial of their miracles in my Bible in Mt 7:22-23.

You may choose to believe that God performed miracles through lawless men, and that individuals unknown to Jesus accomplished genuine miracles in His name. You may also regard their assertions as the gospel truth if you wish. I, however, will not. To me, their claims are simply the assertions of lawless men.

Not all who say to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter into the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does the will of my Father, who is in heaven, the same shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and perform many powerful deeds in your name?" And then will I disclose to them: "I have never known you. Depart from me, you workers of iniquity."​

(Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[Clare73]

You may choose to believe that God performed miracles through lawless men,
and that individuals unknown to Jesus accomplished genuine miracles in His name. You may also regard their assertions as the gospel truth if you wish. I, however, will not. To me, their claims are simply the assertions of lawless men.

Not all who say to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter into the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does the will of my Father, who is in heaven, the same shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and perform many powerful deeds in your name?" And then will I disclose to them: "I have never known you. Depart from me, you workers of iniquity."​

(Matthew 7:21-23)

I do not conclude such if the text does not state such, I take the text at its word.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I do not conclude such if the text does not state such, I take the text at its word.

I understand, so you adopt a "take the text at face value" approach for every statement made by Satan, demons, or prophets of false gods, unless the passage directly refutes their words? It's an unusual method of interpreting holy scriptures.

 

[Clare73]

a "take the text at face value" approach for every statement made by Satan, demons, or prophets of false gods, unless the passage directly refutes their words? It's an unusual method of interpreting holy scriptures.

Agreed. . .

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Agreed. . .

Agreed that it is an unusual method of interpreting holy scriptures?

How do you apply Jesus words when he said:

They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do what Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God; this is not what Abraham did. You do what your father did." They said to him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."​

(John 8:39-47)

 

[Clare73]

Agreed that it is an unusual method of interpreting holy scriptures?

How do you apply Jesus words when he said:

They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do what Abraham did,​

Jesus is speaking spiritually, the Jews are speaking physically.
The Jews did not walk in Abraham's spiritual faith and obedience (Ge 18:19), which demonstrates they are not Abraham's spiritual children.

but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God; this is not what Abraham did. You do what your father did." They said to him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."​

(John 8:39-47)

Taking the passage in context, where Jesus is speaking spiritually, he is saying that
Abraham is not their spiritual father because they do not walk in Abraham's spiritual ways of faith and obedience, that
Satan is their spiritual father (they are spiritual children of the devil) because they walk in Satan's spiritual ways of murder and lies.

They do not believe Jesus because they are not spiritual children of Abraham, but rather are spiritual children of the devil.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Jesus is peaking spiritually, the Jews are speaking physically.
The Jews did not walk in Abraham's spiritual faith and obedience (Ge 18:19), which demonstrates they are not Abraham's spiritual children.

Taking the passage in context, where Jesus is speaking spiritually, he is saying that
Abraham is not their spiritual father because they do not walk in Abraham's spiritual ways of faith and obedience, that
Satan is their spiritual father (they are spiritual children of the devil) because they walk in Satan's spiritual ways of murder and lies.

They do not believe Jesus because they are not spiritual children of Abraham, but rather are spiritual children of the devil.

Your posts play dangerous games with holy scripture. I shall not play those games with you. In everything a Christian is to let God be true no matter what opinions people offer as their interpretations. The lawless men are doing what their father, the devil, has done from the beginning, they are lying, and they did no miracles in Jesus' name.

 

[Clare73]

Your posts play dangerous games with holy scripture. I shall not play those games with you. In everything a Christian is to
let God be true no matter what opinions people offer

Does that apply to those who do not take God at his word in Mt 7:22-23?

as their interpretations. The lawless men are doing what their father, the devil, has done from the beginning, they are lying, and they did no miracles in Jesus' name.

The word of God states that they did miracles (which at best they thought were) in Jesus' name.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Numerous shrines and pilgrimages are associated with the lives of saints and the healing miracles that some believe are due to the sanctity and intercession of the respective saint. Lourdes and Fatima are two notable examples from the 19th and 20th centuries. I understand that some people may find these stories of miracles credible what do you think?

For me personally - the shrines and graven images along with praying to the dead are just too close in practice to paganism.

Any believer (saint) can have part in a miracle, but God always is and always will be the source. We should take direction from the Apostles and not claim the work of God for ourselves. The first time we saw stage four cancer completely healed, it would be easy to say - look what I did - but I did not - only God.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

For me personally - the shrines and graven images along with praying to the dead are just too close in practice to paganism.

Any believer (saint) can have part in a miracle, but God always is and always will be the source. We should take direction from the Apostles and not claim the work of God for ourselves. The first time we saw stage four cancer completely healed, it would be easy to say - look what I did - but I did not - only God.

Consider reflecting on Ephesians 4:8 to contemplate the freedom that Catholic Christians possess in Christ, which may resolve any lingering bonds within Protestantism.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Consider reflecting on Ephesians 4:8 to contemplate the freedom that Catholic Christians possess in Christ, which may resolve any lingering bonds within Protestantism.

I don't have a clue what you think that means?

More more you post about Pentecostals and other 'protestants', the more I wonder how much you really know about them.

Eph 4:8
8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

Says EXACTLY Zero about the Roman Catholic Church. Wanna try again?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I don't have a clue what you think that means?

It means this:

Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.​

(Psalms 68:18-19)

Catholic Christians are under grace and no longer bound by the ceremonies and sacrifices of the Law given through Moses. Thus the very concept of captivity is banished from the Church of God in Jesus Christ.

There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh. For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh. That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. For they that are according to the flesh mind the things that are of the flesh: but they that are according to the spirit mind the things that are of the spirit. For the wisdom of the flesh is death: but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace.​

(Romans 8:1-6)

Catholic Christians do not live in fear of inadvertently breaking a rule established by the Law. There is no need to fear art, worrying it might be considered an idol by the uninformed, nor is there a reason to tremble at the thought of kneeling before our God as represented in an icon, bas-relief, or statue of the Blessed Mother and her son, Jesus. We are fearless in these respects because we are assured that our Redeemer lives, and through His grace, we have been liberated from the Law that once held many captive to sin and death. In short, we are free from the fears that some posts in this thread attempt to impose upon us because their writers live in such fear themselves.

 

[Always in His Presence]

the OP plainly staes:

Numerous shrines and pilgrimages are associated with the lives of saints and the healing miracles that some believe are due to the sanctity and intercession of the respective saint. Lourdes and Fatima are two notable examples from the 19th and 20th centuries. I understand that some people may find these stories of miracles credible what do you think?

So I answered that:

Additionally, I am free and allowed to express my position as freely as you are - I'm sorry you do not agree, if you do not want other theological stances, there is a Traditional forum which I do not go to and you will never find a differing opinion.

My opinion still stands -

For me personally - the shrines and graven images along with praying to the dead are just too close in practice to paganism.

Any believer (saint) can have part in a miracle, but God always is and always will be the source. We should take direction from the Apostles and not claim the work of God for ourselves. The first time we saw stage four cancer completely healed, it would be easy to say - look what I did - but I did not - only God.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

the OP plainly staes:



So I answered that:

Additionally, I am free and allowed to express my position as freely as you are - I'm sorry you do not agree, if you do not want other theological stances, there is a Traditional forum which I do not go to and you will never find a differing opinion.

My opinion still stands -

So, what are you objecting to, is it my post shown below?

It means this:

Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.​

(Psalms 68:18-19)

Catholic Christians are under grace and no longer bound by the ceremonies and sacrifices of the Law given through Moses. Thus the very concept of captivity is banished from the Church of God in Jesus Christ.

There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh. For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh. That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. For they that are according to the flesh mind the things that are of the flesh: but they that are according to the spirit mind the things that are of the spirit. For the wisdom of the flesh is death: but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace.​

(Romans 8:1-6)

Catholic Christians do not live in fear of inadvertently breaking a rule established by the Law. There is no need to fear art, worrying it might be considered an idol by the uninformed, nor is there a reason to tremble at the thought of kneeling before our God as represented in an icon, bas-relief, or statue of the Blessed Mother and her son, Jesus. We are fearless in these respects because we are assured that our Redeemer lives, and through His grace, we have been liberated from the Law that once held many captive to sin and death. In short, we are free from the fears that some posts in this thread attempt to impose upon us because their writers live in such fear themselves.

 

[Always in His Presence]

So, what are you objecting to, is it my post shown below?

Your post below has ZERO to do with embracing graven idols nor praying to the dead. In fact it doesn't have anything to do with the Roman Catholic church - which did not exist at that time.

My statement is really plain

For me personally - the shrines and graven images along with praying to the dead are just too close in practice to paganism.

Any believer (saint) can have part in a miracle, but God always is and always will be the source. We should take direction from the Apostles and not claim the work of God for ourselves. The first time we saw stage four cancer completely healed, it would be easy to say - look what I did - but I did not - only God.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Your post below has ZERO to do with embracing graven idols nor praying to the dead. In fact it doesn't have anything to do with the Roman Catholic church - which did not exist at that time.

My statement is really plain

Everything about my faith has zero to do with idols.