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Are there any facts contrary to T.O.E?

Hans Blaster

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I thought I had already done that several times. Basically the EES is placing the creature central to directing evolution and not the blind NS or random mutations. In doing so its putting creatures in control and not passive players who are acted up by outside forces to evolve.

A general practical example would be that rather than NS filtering out random mutations in populations in a hap hazard way in the EES the creatures developmental capacity and its ability to change themselves brings about the evolution of fit and adpative changes rather than random mutations and NS.

So basically its a change from a programmed view of evolution to the constructive view where creatures and nature construct, determine and direct their own evolution.

But it gets a bit frustrating that I put links up so you can understand and you don't read them. The above quotes stating that the EES is fundementally different in its theorectical framework means something. It should make you want to find out at least the core differences in assumptions and predictions.

Then I would not need to keep explaining. I am obviously not as good as the source in explaining this. So its best to spend sometime researching. Its not as if this is going to prove God or supernaturalism because its pure science. Its just a different way to see evolution and ourselves really as beings that can make intentional changes to reality.

Look I will link the EE research projects home page as all the research and scientific evidence is there to discover.

Suppose I took your interpretation of EES at face value. How does EES contradict evolution as per the thread title?
 
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Gene2memE

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I thought I had already done that several times. Basically the EES is placing the creature central to directing evolution and not the blind NS or random mutations. In doing so its putting creatures in control and not passive players who are acted up by outside forces to evolve.

It's really not.

The EES is arguing that the Modern Synthesis should be extended to include wider consideration of certain genetic and developmental processes, moving up from the 'gene centered' view to include other modes of inheritance.

The biggest of these is probably that our understanding of gene inheritance and trait development should be extended to include broader characteristics (looking at gene groupings and their structures and interplay). Also important is the idea that developmental considerations and processes are going to produce biases towards certain phenotypic/trait acquisitions (less 'random' and more 'within range'). These also a good argument expanding our consideration of cultural inheritance (usually reserved for thinking about humans) into the wider animal kingdom,

A general practical example would be that rather than NS filtering out random mutations in populations in a hap hazard way in the EES the creatures developmental capacity and its ability to change themselves brings about the evolution of fit and adpative changes rather than random mutations and NS.

So basically its a change from a programmed view of evolution to the constructive view where creatures and nature construct, determine and direct their own evolution.

This is a bizarre reading of both the Modern Synthesis and the EES.

Do you realise that the MS already includes things like fitness landscapes, the role of environment in development and the capacity of an organism when it comes to mutation and phenotypic change?

And that EES does not contemplate anything that is determinative or directed at the organism level about evolution. It's still population based.

I think you're reading WAY more into the EES than is actually there. Even the Tempelton Foundation don't got that far.
 
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stevevw

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Do actual evolutionary biologists refer to EES as a kind of "Lamarkian evolution"? I doubt it. Lamarkian evolution is discredited and discarded 150 years ago, it would be odd to refer to a modern theory with the name of an old one.
Put it this way about as many mainstream evolutionary biologists will refer to Lamarkian evolution as they do the EES.
Perhaps more importantly what about EES is evidence against evolution? (The thread topic in case you have forgotten.)
Well I have given this several times, have not not been reading the links. If the EES claims to be a new synthesis over the old then that in itself tells you that there is major differencesd. If the EES claims this is not just words but backed by the science then the evidence is there to be found.
Know what you are posting. I can't be blamed for the garbage you post.
The garbage I post. You fixate on one link and then tar all the links as garbage.
Here were the red flags:

1. The author was at an unknown institute in a suburb of Tulsa.
Ad hominem logical fallacy.
A sub-institute of the University of Tulsa would indicate that (X institute, U of Tulsa, Tulsa, OK). Who created an apparently independent research organization there?
Ad hominem logical fallacy.
2. How did it come to be in my attention? Was it presented to me by someone attacking a science?
Ad hominem and strawman logical fallacy and . If I was attacking science I would not be using science to support my position. I am not attacking science but pointing out the lack of science behind some of the tenets of the MS. Your own bias is coming through in that you equate someone pointing out the faults of the MS as attacking science. Bringing it back to a science v anti science strawman.
3. It was a bit "odd". I can't articulate it, but something about the way it was written.
So now science is about feelings. And you call the alternative ideas on consciousness woo when your now using some sort of sixth sense as evidence. Perhaps what your sensing is your bias. You already said the issue is about science verses anti science so perhaps your projecting.
So I searched the institute, the journal. Just a listing of the editorial board was enough to realize it was an ID journal. A whole lot of "famous" ID names are all over it, not to mention addresses at "Biola" and "Biologic Institute" and "Discovery Institute". At this point all credibility for "BIO-complexity" is lost.
Another Ad hominem. So what about the others. Why did you only focus on that one and then use it as the means to represent all the evidence. Perhaps you were using that link to avoid dealing with the others.

But we can solve this. As my evidence doesn't just rely on that singl;e article lets eliminate it. That forces you to now have to deal with the 10 other papers from mainstream peer reviwed journals saying the same thing.
But I wasn't done. I found the "institute" and it was mostly a hollow shell occupied by the author of that article. The ID smell on it was thick.

It is ID turtles all the way down, therefore I don't care at all what Mr. Bartlett has to say.
But we can solve this. As my evidence doesn't just rely on that singl;e article lets eliminate it. That forces you to now have to deal with the 10 other papers from mainstream peer reviwed journals saying the same thing.
It's the old principle GIGO. There is no reason to put any authority behind this "Bio-Complexity" essay. If you want to stop these kinds of reactions, vet your sources before you use them.
Yes you seem to save all your reactions, over reactions to one article among many. Its a pity you don't have the same enthusiam for looking at the other articles content and actually dealing with the content.
I don't know what these other articles are, but you aren't identifying the journals correctly. Of your list, only PNAS and Nature are actual journals. "The Royal Society" is some sort of society, not a journal,
The Royal Society is a Fellowship of many of the world's most eminent scientists and is the oldest scientific academy in continuous existence. Itsd part of Oxford university. Its been going for over 350 years with past members such as Christopher Wren, John Locke and Isaac Newton.

So I doubt its going to promote Woo. If you want top play the Ad hominem game then you can't get much better credibility by reputation and associated lol.
and NCBI is obviously an institution. What has you apparently confused is that NCBI has a database of published articles. They do not do the vetting or review of the articles in the journals that they index as they are not the publisher. Every article you find that is linked to NCBI is published by some journal and that info is plainly stated on the first page of every article. Use it.
OK so when we do look at where the papers come from we see the Oxford universities Royal Society and the Journal 'Proceedings B' is the Royal Society’s flagship biological research journal.

So I have directly or indirectly linked at least 10 articles from reputable journals and you choose to fixate on 1. We have now spent 5 or 6 posts on what amounts to a logical fallacy. It makes me wonder why such diversion is necessary rather than actually dealing with the content.
Red flags. We need to deal with the non-scientific material before we could move on.
Like I said I don't need that single paper out of many for my evidence. The same thing has been said in other scientififc journals.
 
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Suppose I took your interpretation of EES at face value. How does EES contradict evolution as per the thread title?
I thought I already explained this. Oh thats right you dismiss this as woo and don't bother even reading it. But thankyou for at last at least getting to the content. I refer back to links already linked here

The resulting theoretical framework (the EES) differs from the latter (SET) in its core logic and predictive capacities.

The EES establishes a new structure of the theoretical evolutionary framework that goes beyond the reductionist and gene-centred perspective of the past. It represents a different way of thinking about evolution, historically rooted in the organicist tradition [108].

The differences in structure and consequences are substantial enough to require a new designation, because to continue using ‘MS’ evokes a wholly different set of assumptions and predictions.


EES’ used here and elsewhere [4,5,9,14,15,27,28,49] is not meant as a simple extension of the MS, as sometimes wrongly implied, but to indicate a comprehensive new synthesis
.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC556681

and here which will contain a comparison of the SET and EES in core assumptions and structure differences and how these actually change the theorectical framework of the SET and undermines the gene centric view of SET and that NS is the sole force that gives evolution direction by making the creature itself directing its own evolution. Which are both internal (developmental self organisation) and external influences of agency such as Niche construction, plasticity and inheritence beyond genes such as culture, nesting and epigenetics.


I would also point out that if the EES differs from the SET in its core logic, assumptions and predictions and requires a new theorectical framework and synthesis then surely that means the EES is undermining at least some of the SET's evidence and claims to be fact.

Once you understand what the EES represents then perhaps we can discuss some of its detail as to its validity and whether it actually represents a new synthesis and undermines SET.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Put it this way about as many mainstream evolutionary biologists will refer to Lamarkian evolution as they do the EES.
I'd really like to see this demonstrated. It would seem bad pedagogy to recycle a discredited term for something new.
Well I have given this several times, have not not been reading the links. If the EES claims to be a new synthesis over the old then that in itself tells you that there is major differencesd. If the EES claims this is not just words but backed by the science then the evidence is there to be found.
I've read some of the related links. I don't recall whether they were from you or others. Nothing I've seen about EES makes it anything other then --- evolution.
The garbage I post. You fixate on one link and then tar all the links as garbage.
It demonstrates a lack of discernment. And no I haven't trashed all of your links. Some I haven't even talked about.
Ad hominem logical fallacy.

Ad hominem logical fallacy.
These were in response to my identification of the author and institution and journal. As I have said before, it was ID all the way down. If someone is at an "institute" I've never heard of I'll look it up. Why don't you. I can't imagine you've ever heard of the Bythe Institute (or Broken Arrow, OK). It took me less than 10 minutes to sort this "institute" out. My question is why didn't you? How did you even find that article?
Ad hominem and strawman logical fallacy and . If I was attacking science I would not be using science to support my position. I am not attacking science but pointing out the lack of science behind some of the tenets of the MS. Your own bias is coming through in that you equate someone pointing out the faults of the MS as attacking science. Bringing it back to a science v anti science strawman.
The problem is you weren't using science. You were quoting from or depending on a pseudo-science journal. If you are going to wade around in the pseudoscience swamp you are going to get some pseudoscience stink on you.
So now science is about feelings. And you call the alternative ideas on consciousness woo when your now using some sort of sixth sense as evidence. Perhaps what your sensing is your bias. You already said the issue is about science verses anti science so perhaps your projecting.
I'm not a linguistic analyst. I can't articulate what felt odd to me about the way it was written. It felt "off" and raised my motivation to find out who they were.
Another Ad hominem. So what about the others. Why did you only focus on that one and then use it as the means to represent all the evidence. Perhaps you were using that link to avoid dealing with the others.
Again, these are not 'ad hominems'. I am identifying motivated reasoning, etc. in the source you gave me. BIO-complexity is a pseudo-science journal (a form of crypto-creationism called "intelligent design") Like I said there were many recognizable names from the world of ID all over the editorial staff/board of the journal.
But we can solve this. As my evidence doesn't just rely on that singl;e article lets eliminate it. That forces you to now have to deal with the 10 other papers from mainstream peer reviwed journals saying the same thing.

But we can solve this. As my evidence doesn't just rely on that singl;e article lets eliminate it. That forces you to now have to deal with the 10 other papers from mainstream peer reviwed journals saying the same thing.

Yes you seem to save all your reactions, over reactions to one article among many. Its a pity you don't have the same enthusiam for looking at the other articles content and actually dealing with the content.
You exhaust me. When you put your worst material first, I notice it first. It is a pattern.
The Royal Society is a Fellowship of many of the world's most eminent scientists and is the oldest scientific academy in continuous existence. Itsd part of Oxford university. Its been going for over 350 years with past members such as Christopher Wren, John Locke and Isaac Newton.
A fellowship, eh? Do they have a ring?
So I doubt its going to promote Woo. If you want top play the Ad hominem game then you can't get much better credibility by reputation and associated lol.
I didn't say anything about this royalist fellowship promoting woo. I just informed you that it was a society and not a journal as you had claimed.
OK so when we do look at where the papers come from we see the Oxford universities Royal Society and the Journal 'Proceedings B' is the Royal Society’s flagship biological research journal.
Never read it, or any other "royal society" journal. Not saying there is a problem with it, they just don't publish anything I use.
So I have directly or indirectly linked at least 10 articles from reputable journals and you choose to fixate on 1. We have now spent 5 or 6 posts on what amounts to a logical fallacy. It makes me wonder why such diversion is necessary rather than actually dealing with the content.

Like I said I don't need that single paper out of many for my evidence. The same thing has been said in other scientififc journals.
When you give me a six page post, I will likely respond to the first part first. This time that was from a pseudoscience institute in a pseudoscience journal. Do better vetting of your posted material and this won't happen.
 
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BCP1928

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Once you understand what the EES represents then perhaps we can discuss some of its detail as to its validity and whether it actually represents a new synthesis and undermines SET.
Here's what the EES people have to say about themselves:

"EES does not replace traditional thinking, but rather can be deployed alongside it to stimulate research in evolutionary biology."


BTW, undermining SET will not help you. EES is no more amenable to your ideas about teleology than SET.
 
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It's really not.

The EES is arguing that the Modern Synthesis should be extended to include wider consideration of certain genetic and developmental processes, moving up from the 'gene centered' view to include other modes of inheritance.
You say its really not but I question if you have even read about what the EES is saying. If you say its just an extention of the status quo then why do the authors of the EES actually say its not just an extension or add on but a completely new synthesis with different theorectical framework, assumptions and predictions.

That is not an extension of the sdame but a reconceptualisation of the theory itself along the lines of a different paradigm in thinking.
The biggest of these is probably that our understanding of gene inheritance and trait development should be extended to include broader characteristics
What is broader characteristics.
(looking at gene groupings and their structures and interplay).
Some of the changes in what produces variation and evolutionary change are not even to do with genes, with the gene basis for change. Which shows how steeped in the gene centric view evolution is that it cannot even conceptualise evolution with genes. Or evolution without genes being the dominant source of driving change.
Also important is the idea that developmental considerations and processes are going to produce biases towards certain phenotypic/trait acquisitions (less 'random' and more 'within range'). These also a good argument expanding our consideration of cultural inheritance (usually reserved for thinking about humans) into the wider animal kingdom,
Yes and its not just a consideration as additional influences within the gene centric and NS view. But that these other forces are just as powerful if not more than genes and natural selection. They dictate what variation is available which is often adaptive and fit thus more directed towards benefits rather than blind or random. So fundementally a change in assumption that evolution change is less programmed and more constructive. Less determined and more directed to an end.
This is a bizarre reading of both the Modern Synthesis and the EES.
Why its exactly what the EES claims if you read it.
Do you realise that the MS already includes things like fitness landscapes,
Only in the context of population genetics. A fitness landscape is basically a mathmatical measure of the genotypes to phenotype adaptability to environments for fitness. This still reduces things back to the programmed view which makes creatures passive entities acted upon by random mutations and NS.

Behaviour of the creature is seen as an extended phenotype which is programmed by the genotype and not an independent force that can direct evolution itself. Genotype to phenotype mapping only. So everything is the result or done to enhance the fitness to landscape mapping through genetics within populations.

For biologists schooled in population genetic or quantitative genetic thinking, the starting point for evolutionary analyses is the selection pressures [94]. Environmental change has been treated as a ‘background condition'. On this perspective, termites evolve to become adapted to the mounds they construct in a manner no different from how organisms adapt to frequent volcanic eruptions. Because niche-constructing activities are seen as proximate sources of variation, they are typically treated as ‘extended phenotypes' [87] that evolve because they enhance inclusive fitness.

We suggest that structuring evolutionary explanations around
processes that directly change genotype frequencies is responsible for these interpretations. A widely accepted definition of evolution is change in the genetic composition of populations, which, to many evolutionary biologists, restricts evolutionary processes to those that directly change gene frequencies—natural selection, drift, gene flow and mutation. Phenomena such as developmental bias or niche construction do not directly change gene frequencies, and hence are not viewed as causes of evolutionary processes.

Contemporary evolutionary biology textbooks support this interpretation (see the electronic supplementary material, table S1). Only selection, drift, gene flow and mutation are consistently described as evolutionary processes and
coverage of developmental bias, plasticity, inclusive inheritance and niche construction is at best modest (e.g. [95]) and, more commonly, absent [96,97]. What coverage does occur is typically given the traditional interpretation outlined above.
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2015.1019

the role of environment in development and the capacity of an organism when it comes to mutation and phenotypic change?

And that EES does not contemplate anything that is determinative or directed at the organism level about evolution. It's still population based.
The why does it point out that the population genetic based view is what it is disagreeing with as the source of evolution or rather the only sauce. ie as above and as follows

Even though claims have been made that classical evolutionary biology has continuously incorporated aspects from new conceptual domains [33,36], the majority of tenets and explanations that appear in characterizations of the current theory are still derived from the MS account and its population genetic principles [37].

Current evolutionary theory is predominantly oriented towards a genetic explanation of variation. Whatever lip service is paid to taking into account other factors than those traditionally accepted, (the EES my emphasis) we find that the theory, as presented in extant writings, concentrates on a limited set of evolutionary explananda, excluding the majority of those mentioned among the explanatory goals above. (in other words the EES is excluded as causes).

Whereas the MS theory and its various amendments concentrate on genetic and adaptive variation in populations, the extended framework emphasizes the role of constructive processes, ecological interactions and systems dynamics in the evolution of organismal complexity as well as its social and cultural conditions. Single-level and unilinear causation is replaced by multilevel and reciprocal causation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5566817/
I think you're reading WAY more into the EES than is actually there. Even the Tempelton Foundation don't got that far.
Am I really or is it that your reading toi less into the EES. I suggest you read the links carefully and take in what they are actually saying. As noted by the authors

the majority of tenets and explanations that appear in characterizations of the current theory are still derived from the MS account and its population genetic principles [37]. The gene-centric position remains constitutive of the MS.

The resulting theoretical framework (the EES) differs from the latter (SET) in its core logic and predictive capacities.

The EES establishes a new structure of the theoretical evolutionary framework that goes beyond the reductionist and gene-centred perspective of the past. It represents a different way of thinking about evolution, historically rooted in the organicist tradition [108].

The differences in structure and consequences are substantial enough to require a new designation, because to continue using ‘MS’ evokes a wholly different set of assumptions and predictions.


EES’ used here and elsewhere [4,5,9,14,15,27,28,49] is not meant as a simple extension of the MS, as sometimes wrongly implied, but to indicate a comprehensive new synthesis
.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC556681
 
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You say its really not but I question if you have even read about what the EES is saying. If you say its just an extention of the status quo then why do the authors of the EES actually say its not just an extension or add on but a completely new synthesis with different theorectical framework, assumptions and predictions.

That is not an extension of the sdame but a reconceptualisation of the theory itself along the lines of a different paradigm in thinking.

What is broader characteristics.

Some of the changes in what produces variation and evolutionary change are not even to do with genes, with the gene basis for change. Which shows how steeped in the gene centric view evolution is that it cannot even conceptualise evolution with genes. Or evolution without genes being the dominant source of driving change.

Yes and its not just a consideration as additional influences within the gene centric and NS view. But that these other forces are just as powerful if not more than genes and natural selection. They dictate what variation is available which is often adaptive and fit thus more directed towards benefits rather than blind or random. So fundementally a change in assumption that evolution change is less programmed and more constructive. Less determined and more directed to an end.

Why its exactly what the EES claims if you read it.

Only in the context of population genetics. A fitness landscape is basically a mathmatical measure of the genotypes to phenotype adaptability to environments for fitness. This still reduces things back to the programmed view which makes creatures passive entities acted upon by random mutations and NS.

Behaviour of the creature is seen as an extended phenotype which is programmed by the genotype and not an independent force that can direct evolution itself. Genotype to phenotype mapping only. So everything is the result or done to enhance the fitness to landscape mapping through genetics within populations.

For biologists schooled in population genetic or quantitative genetic thinking, the starting point for evolutionary analyses is the selection pressures [94]. Environmental change has been treated as a ‘background condition'. On this perspective, termites evolve to become adapted to the mounds they construct in a manner no different from how organisms adapt to frequent volcanic eruptions. Because niche-constructing activities are seen as proximate sources of variation, they are typically treated as ‘extended phenotypes' [87] that evolve because they enhance inclusive fitness.

We suggest that structuring evolutionary explanations around
processes that directly change genotype frequencies is responsible for these interpretations. A widely accepted definition of evolution is change in the genetic composition of populations, which, to many evolutionary biologists, restricts evolutionary processes to those that directly change gene frequencies—natural selection, drift, gene flow and mutation. Phenomena such as developmental bias or niche construction do not directly change gene frequencies, and hence are not viewed as causes of evolutionary processes.

Contemporary evolutionary biology textbooks support this interpretation (see the electronic supplementary material, table S1). Only selection, drift, gene flow and mutation are consistently described as evolutionary processes and
coverage of developmental bias, plasticity, inclusive inheritance and niche construction is at best modest (e.g. [95]) and, more commonly, absent [96,97]. What coverage does occur is typically given the traditional interpretation outlined above.
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2015.1019


The why does it point out that the population genetic based view is what it is disagreeing with as the source of evolution or rather the only sauce. ie as above and as follows

Even though claims have been made that classical evolutionary biology has continuously incorporated aspects from new conceptual domains [33,36], the majority of tenets and explanations that appear in characterizations of the current theory are still derived from the MS account and its population genetic principles [37].

Current evolutionary theory is predominantly oriented towards a genetic explanation of variation. Whatever lip service is paid to taking into account other factors than those traditionally accepted, (the EES my emphasis) we find that the theory, as presented in extant writings, concentrates on a limited set of evolutionary explananda, excluding the majority of those mentioned among the explanatory goals above. (in other words the EES is excluded as causes).

Whereas the MS theory and its various amendments concentrate on genetic and adaptive variation in populations, the extended framework emphasizes the role of constructive processes, ecological interactions and systems dynamics in the evolution of organismal complexity as well as its social and cultural conditions. Single-level and unilinear causation is replaced by multilevel and reciprocal causation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5566817/

Am I really or is it that your reading toi less into the EES. I suggest you read the links carefully and take in what they are actually saying. As noted by the authors

the majority of tenets and explanations that appear in characterizations of the current theory are still derived from the MS account and its population genetic principles [37]. The gene-centric position remains constitutive of the MS.

The resulting theoretical framework (the EES) differs from the latter (SET) in its core logic and predictive capacities.

The EES establishes a new structure of the theoretical evolutionary framework that goes beyond the reductionist and gene-centred perspective of the past. It represents a different way of thinking about evolution, historically rooted in the organicist tradition [108].

The differences in structure and consequences are substantial enough to require a new designation, because to continue using ‘MS’ evokes a wholly different set of assumptions and predictions.


EES’ used here and elsewhere [4,5,9,14,15,27,28,49] is not meant as a simple extension of the MS, as sometimes wrongly implied, but to indicate a comprehensive new synthesis
.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC556681
So what if we were to concede your point, that EES completely overturns the theory of evolution and rejects any evolutionary role for random variation and selection? After all, it's possible that you are right, even though the EES people themselves don't seem to think so. What's your next step?
 
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stevevw

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Here's what the EES people have to say about themselves:

"EES does not replace traditional thinking, but rather can be deployed alongside it to stimulate research in evolutionary biology."

Ok so how do you explain this

the majority of tenets and explanations that appear in characterizations of the current theory are still derived from the MS account and its population genetic principles [37]. The gene-centric position remains constitutive of the MS.

The resulting theoretical framework (the EES) differs from the latter (SET) in its core logic and predictive capacities.

The EES establishes a new structure of the theoretical evolutionary framework that goes beyond the reductionist and gene-centred perspective of the past. It represents a different way of thinking about evolution, historically rooted in the organicist tradition [108].

The differences in structure and consequences are substantial enough to require a new designation, because to continue using ‘MS’ evokes a wholly different set of assumptions and predictions.


EES’ used here and elsewhere [4,5,9,14,15,27,28,49] is not meant as a simple extension of the MS, as sometimes wrongly implied, but to indicate a comprehensive new synthesis
.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC556681

I would have thought a complete new synthesis is not actually the same thing as the traditional thinking. How can it deveop alongside the traditional when it has a completely different theorectical framework with different tenets, basic assumptions and predictions. That in scientific terms is a completely different theory if it has different assumptions and predictions.
BTW, undermining SET will not help you. EES is no more amenable to your ideas about teleology than SET.
Thats silly. If the EES places the creature at the centre and able to direct their own evolution then that is more conmducive of agency then what the SET claims. Forces like Niche contruction and Inheritence beyond genes are about creatures changing their environments rather than environments changing creatures and intentional behaviour creating beneficial changes in fitness.

Remembering that these forces are not just secondary influences that have been dictated by the programmed view of the MS but are actualy forces that direct evolution on par with Natural selection and random mutations. Thus are not rabdom or blind processes but directed towards and end.

Niche Construction Theory uniquely integrates ecological and social components of domestication, incorporating human capacity for goal-directed behaviour into a theory of evolution that recognizes the role of human agency in the evolutionary interactions of humans and non-human species
https://link-springer-com.ezproxy.usq.edu.au/article/10.1007%2Fs10682-015-9801-8

Organisms contribute to the conditions under which they evolve in myriad ways. Their own size, structure, behaviour, physiology, and development determine the ways in which environmental features impact on organisms. They actively select which features of the environment are relevant for their survival. They change the features of their external environments (Odling Smee et al. 2003).
https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/oso/9780198779636.001.0001/oso-9780198779636-chapter-8#oso-9780198779636-chapter-8-bibItem-506

Organisms are influenced, but not determined, by their genes, and their activities are shaped by developmental information-gaining processes as well as natural selection. Organisms are not merely objects through which the causal explanatory power of natural selection flows; rather they are active agents that transduce and filter genetic inputs that derive from prior selection, as well as environmental inputs.
Implications for evolutionary theory – Niche construction.

Why has niche construction theory been so influential in the human sciences? One reason is that it is self-apparent that humans possess an unusually potent capability to regulate, construct and destroy environments, and that this is generating some pressing current problems (e.g. climate change, …deforestation, urbanization). A second reason is niche construction theory’s recognition of human agency (and of human activities guiding selection rather than merely resulting from it).
https://nicheconstruction.com/
 
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mindlight

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The way theories work is that a single contrary
fact can disprove it.

Many claim to "know" evolution is false. But no Nobel is awarded.

Does anyone have such disproof?
If not, how in good conscience can anyone say its false?

The case for T.O.E cannot be demonstrated using the scientific method. QED cannot be proved and so there is no scientific discussion to be had here. This becomes a theological and scriptural question and a matter of faith. Special creation explains things better and integrates better into a coherent view of life as a whole.
 
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Ophiolite

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The case for T.O.E cannot be demonstrated using the scientific method. QED cannot be proved and so there is no scientific discussion to be had here. This becomes a theological and scriptural question and a matter of faith. Special creation explains things better and integrates better into a coherent view of life as a whole.
The scientific method has demonstrated, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the T.O.E is not only the best explanation for the diversity of life on this planet, but that it is the sole explanation that has scientific support. You are of course fully entitled to follow a contrary belief based upon faith, an entitlement I fully respect.. You are, however, not entitled to make unsupported allegations about the scientific validity of the T.O.E. (Well, you can make them, but they can be appropriately disregarded.)
 
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Laodicean60

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the diversity of life on this planet,
How did the primordial soup create all these diverse species, this is what I can't wrap my head around. Did one species crawl out and have babies of different species? How did the soup create plant life because animals need something to eat; then I ask myself if herbivores came first how did carnivores come to existence?
 
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BCP1928

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How did the primordial soup create all these diverse species, this is what I can't wrap my head around. Did one species crawl out and have babies of different species? How did the soup create plant life because animals need something to eat; then I ask myself if herbivores came first how did carnivores come to existence?
You will never find answers to those questions, because it absolutely did not happen that way. In the first place, no creature ever has offspring of a different species than itself. Thus, the distinction between plant and animal life emerged gradually. You ought to do some basic reading. You might even learn why, if humans evolved from monkeys, there are still monkeys. ;)
 
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Laodicean60

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You ought to do some basic reading. You might even learn why, if humans evolved from monkeys, there are still monkeys. ;)
Can you point me in the right direction it's been a long time since school and I never felt the need nor desire to learn this stuff till I came to these forums.
 
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BCP1928

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Can you point me in the right direction it's been a long time since school and I never felt the need nor desire to learn this stuff till I came to these forums.
My favorite has always been What Evolution Is by the late Ernst Mayr. Mayr was a leading evolutionary biologist in his day and he wrote the book for laymen, particularly creationist laymen, who stumble over the same concepts as you expressed difficulty with in your post. The book is dated now, but is not wrong. Perhaps some of the younger folks around here can help with something more recent.
 
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Hans Blaster

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How did the primordial soup create all these diverse species, this is what I can't wrap my head around. Did one species crawl out and have babies of different species?
It didn't. The idea with the "primordial soup" is that the complex chemistry formed very primitive cells. (Abiogensis) Those proto-cells then divided, replicated, competed for resources, and started to evolve.
How did the soup create plant life because animals need something to eat; then I ask myself if herbivores came first how did carnivores come to existence?
Living cells have been eating each other since long before the blue-green algae 'invented' photosynthesis.
 
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Laodicean60

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It didn't. The idea with the "primordial soup" is that the complex chemistry formed very primitive cells. (Abiogensis) Those proto-cells then divided, replicated, competed for resources, and started to evolve.

Living cells have been eating each other since long before the blue-green algae 'invented' photosynthesis.
While watching some videos of Ernst Mayr this video caught my eye Making matter come alive. Lee Cronin is a chemist and he says it might be possible in two years. I believe science still has to get better.

 
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BCP1928

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While watching some videos of Ernst Mayr this video caught my eye Making matter come alive. Lee Cronin is a chemist and he says it might be possible in two years. I believe science still has to get better.

Cool. But read the actual book.
 
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