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Are there any facts contrary to T.O.E?

stevevw

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Theories are not proven. They are only disproven. They are always provisional and dependent on new observations.
Tell that to those who proclaim it as fact beyond doubt. That use it to refute all other options as dead wrong.
Lets start with this.
Does evolutionary theory need a rethink?
First, what is a "non-random" mutation? Based on the meaning of words that would mean a mutation deliberately induced with purpose. I assume this would refer to, say, GMO crops?
No not GMC. Though in principle its a similar idea in that just like humans can modify genetics and environments to produce certain beneficial outcomes over others organisms can have a similar ability developmentally through developmental bias which produces certain phenotypes changes over others.

Also developmental plasticity where developmental systems are able to adapt with environments in non random ways due to the connectivity and reciprical relationships between other creatures and environments.

Developmental bias and plasticity assume central roles as generators of novel and coordinated phenotypic variation by conferring directionality on the selective processes. Instead of chance variation in DNA composition, evolving developmental interactions account for the specificities of phenotypic construction. This interpretation is also based on a fundamentally different account of the role of genes in development and evolution.

In the EES, genes are not causally privileged as programs or blueprints that control and dictate phenotypic outcomes, but are rather parts of the systemic dynamics of interactions that mobilize
self-organizing processes in the evolution of development and entire life cycles. This represents a shift from a programmed to a constructive role of developmental processes in evolution.

The construction of phenotypic complexity, in which causation not only flows from the lower levels of biological organization, such as DNA, ‘upwards’ to cells, tissues and organisms, but also from the higher level ‘downwards’, such as through environmental- or tissue-induced gene regulation.

The generation of heritable phenotypic variation (variation will be systematically biased and facilitated by the generative features of development
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5566817/

Some work on developmental bias suggests that phenotypic variation can be channelled and directed towards functional types by the processes of development [27,28]. The rationale is that development relies on highly robust ‘core processes’, from microtubule formation and signal transduction pathways to organogenesis, which at the same time exhibit ‘exploratory behaviour’ [28], allowing them to stabilize and select certain states over others. Exploratory behaviour followed by somatic selection enables core processes to be responsive to changes in genetic and environmental input, while their robustness and conservation maintain their ability to generate functional (i.e. well integrated) outcomes in the face of perturbations.

This phenomenon, known as
facilitated variation [28,34], provides a mechanistic explanation for how small, genetic changes can sometimes elicit substantial, non-random, well-integrated and apparently adaptive innovations in the phenotype.

Developmental plasticity
- Developmental, or phenotypic, plasticity is the capacity of an organism to change its phenotype in response to the environment.

Phenotypic accommodation refers to the mutual and often functional adjustment of parts of an organism during development that typically does not involve genetic mutation [27]. From this viewpoint, developmental processes play a critical role in determining which genetic variants will produce selectable phenotypic differences, and which will not. Genetic accommodation may provide a mechanism for rapid adaptation to novel environments, as those environments simultaneously induce and select for alternative phenotypes [47,52,53].
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/282/1813/20151019
Otherwise we're just talking about selection here. Everything you listed here is just a facet of mutation and selection.
Actually its not and this supports my point that despite claims that the Standard theory has moved on from the gene centric views and of Natural Selection being responsible for all Adaptive variations is still promoted as the main and only forces in evolution.

In fact NS is only one of several forces and not particularly dominant and most variation comes from well integrated and non random developmental capacities such as developmental bias, Plasticity, Niche Construction and Inheritence beyond genes such as epigenetics and socialisation.

For example Niche Contruction is also a selective force that can over ride and direct NS, It can work similar to the idea of artificial selection with crops and dog breeds in selecting for the most beneficial and adaptive traits or conditions which are conducive of survival.

In this way it is the organism, the creature that is directing their own evolution rather than being passive entities acted upon by mutations and NS which quite often don't define what is best in the specific situations. Whereas the living creature themselves knows best, understands their environment and are designed with developmental abilities and knowledge to construct their own survivability.

Even culture and other nesting behaviours influence future conditions and therefore what traits will be passed on. According to Epigenetics the stresses a creature lives under will influence phenotype change in how genes are expressed positively or negatively so this points to agency in the choices made to living conditions.

HGT have been found common among all life and this is another means in how genetic info is shared and aids in adaptations especially in simbiotic relationships. So as you can see there is a whole lot more to evolution than just random mutations and NS.

The Standard Eveolutionary Theory (SET) contends biological diversity is mostly explained by natural selection, defined as the confluence of random phenotypic variation, genetic inheritance, and differential reproductive success. However, some scientists (proponents of the “extended evolutionary synthesis,” or EES) are challenging the tenet that phenotypic variation is entirely random and that natural selection is entirely driven by genetic inheritance.
"http://biologos.org/blog/the-changing-face-of-evolutionary-theory"]

Inclusive inheritance- Biological inheritance is typically defined as the transmission of genes from parents to offspring. However, it is increasingly recognized that there are multiple mechanisms that contribute to heredity [5961]. Parent–offspring similarity occurs not only because of transmission of DNA, but because parents transfer a variety of developmental resources that enable reconstruction of developmental niches [60,6265]. These include components of the egg and post-fertilization resources (e.g. hormones), behavioural interactions between parents and offspring (e.g. maternal care), parental modification of other components of the biotic and abiotic environment (e.g. host choice) and inheritance of symbionts directly through the mother's germ cells or by infection. In addition, recent research reveals that vertical and horizontal social transmission is widespread in both vertebrates and invertebrates, and can both initiate population divergence and trigger speciation [66].

Under this broader notion of heredity,
inheritance can occur from germ cell to germ cell, from soma to germ cell, from soma to soma, and from soma to soma via the external environment [63], The pathways of inheritance that derive from a parental phenotype (‘parental effects’) have a number of evolutionary consequences similar to those of plasticity, cultural inheritance and niche construction [67]. For example, non-genetic inheritance can bias the expression and retention of environmentally induced phenotypes, thereby influencing the rate and direction of evolution [68]. There is also increasing evidence for more stable transgenerational epigenetic inheritance, or the transmission across generations of cellular states without modification of the DNA sequence, which demonstrates that adaptive evolution may proceed by selection on epigenetic variants as well as variation in DNA sequence [60,69,70].

The EES is thus characterized by the central role of the organism in the evolutionary process, and by the view that the direction of evolution does not depend on selection alone, and need not start with mutation. The most striking and contentious difference from the original MS concerns the relative significance of natural selection versus generative variation in evolution, one of the oldest controversies in evolutionary biology (e.g. [116,117]). In the EES, developmental processes, operating through developmental bias, inclusive inheritance and niche construction, share responsibility for the direction and rate of evolution, the origin of character variation and organism–environment complementarity.
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/282/1813/20151019
What is the biggest challenge? Nothing listed previously seems to be a challenge. Just details of the theory that may further be refined. The overall theory is still very much intact.
Probably the overall biggest change would be from the programmed view of the standard theory where creatures are programmed by gene blueprints and acted upon passively by NS. Which narrows things down to genes and NS.

As opposed to the more pluralistic view that sees the creature itself at centre as an agent and able to make intelligent and knowledgable choices about its own evolution. That is designed with the ability to adapt both developmentally and intelligently with changing conditions.

We have proposed Evo-lutionary Teleonomy—the idea that organisms can actively affect their evolution on every level—as the new foundational principle of evolutionary biology. Evolutionary Teleonomy unifies many of the independent topics of the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis under a single, understandable label. As has been demonstrated, these principles have real effects on the way that biological facts are used and applied in biological research, and using the wrong principles will lead to incorrect results.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ciple_for_the_Extended_Evolutionary_Synthesis
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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@stevevw I am going to be 100% honest with you: there is no way I am reading all of that, especially since you're quoting me from entirely different threads since I know for a fact that half of the stuff you've quoted as being from me aren't even from this thread.
 
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stevevw

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@stevevw I am going to be 100% honest with you: there is no way I am reading all of that, especially since you're quoting me from entirely different threads since I know for a fact that half of the stuff you've quoted as being from me aren't even from this thread.
OK so then read the first one. They all more or less say the same thing. BUt the first one "Does Evolution need a rethink" covers the basics and is enough to get an idea of how there is a growing fundemental difference in views about what exactly evolution represents or not.

I am not sure what you mean by quoting you from another thread though.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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OK so then read the first one. They all more or less say the same thing. BUt the first one "Does Evolution need a rethink" covers the basics and is enough to get an idea of how there is a growing fundemental difference in views about what exactly evolution represents or not.

And no-one would argue that scientific theories are provisional and they can and will be changed as new information comes to light. But while the minutia of the theory might change, the overarching description of the theory will not.

I am not sure what you mean by quoting you from another thread though.

Simply put, if I go back to the original comment post, post #225 for this thread, for that you've quoted from me, I don't say ANYTHING of what you've quoted from me at all. I didn't edit that post to get rid of those comments, and the only other place they'd come from is from another thread entirely.
 
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stevevw

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You're wasting your time with that old article. There is no way that evolution is going to be "rethought" into creationism.
Lol that article is not about creationism. Its a scientific article about science, about research discoveries in evolutionary biology and related fields.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I don't believe it I also I don't agree with the Genesis account. DNA of humans is older than YEC.

No offence, but from the continued reading of how you don't agree with anything anyone tells you, you just come off as a contrarian.
 
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Laodicean60

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Math is the language that quantum physics is expressed with (like much of physics). That doesn't make it math or make it follow the properties of axiomatic systems like math and have proofs, etc.
I copied this off the internet:
"Quantum-inspired foundations for formal systems
Axiomatic systems play a crucial role in quantum theory, aiming to provide a rigorous foundation for the discipline. In this context, axiomatic systems are used to describe quantum mechanics and quantum field theory in terms of well-defined axioms."
 
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BCP1928

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Lol that article is not about creationism. Its a scientific article about science, about research discoveries in evolutionary biology and related fields.
It's evidence that science marches on. Good for them, I say. They're trying to see what happens when they think out of the box, just like scientists should always do. Why did you post it?
 
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Laodicean60

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The thread is asking for someone to post that information. What are the evidences against TOE.

If one claims that that evidence exists it is incumbent on one to present it.

Saying “its there but I won’t provide it” can only mean one is unable to provide it.
In my initial post, I proclaimed that I wouldn't argue about ToE because:
Do you have proof that the evolution theory is true or disproof in the God theory? We all make claims of what we think are true but it all stems from a belief system. This is why I don't argue about something that happened many moons ago; we really don't know.
I believe there is a God component to evolution and many of you don't but there is no use for me to argue it.
 
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Laodicean60

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No offence, but from the continued reading of how you don't agree with anything anyone tells you, you just come off as a contrarian.
I am always a contrarian when it comes to science and the bible. My belief in God and science has shaped my worldview and I'll hold that view until it's proven otherwise, all I can do is hide and watch.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I am always a contrarian when it comes to science and the bible. My belief in God and science has shaped my worldview and I'll hold that view until it's proven otherwise, all I can do is hide and watch.

Which does further beg the question of why even get involved in this sort of debate in the first place.
 
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Hans Blaster

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We really do know.
Firstly somebody who was there dictated exactly what happened to someone who recorded it accurately and it has been accurately preserved for us.
That historical account is called Genesis.
"Genesis" is a document from c. 6th century BCE, we don't know what source material was used to compile and redact it.
Actually all 66 documents of the Bible attest to the fact that evolutionism is the ridiculous religion.
Your bible is short a few books and asserting "evolutionism" to be a religion does not make it so.
Jesus Himself states that He created the world.
Which has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is about the change in species that already exist.
There is so much archaeological, biological, historical and other evidence for creationism,
Quite the opposite. The archaeological, biological, and historical evidence are pointedly *for* evolution. (Though archeology and history aren't needed at all unless we are talking about the very recent evolution of humans.)
the veracity of the Bible and the existence of God that it's ludicrous to believe the myths and fairy tales concocted by storytellers.
No one called the bible that (even if we are thinking it).
I didn't believe them when I wasn't even a follower of Jesus!
Humans evolved from monkeys?!?!
Humans are primates, like monkeys, and are apes.
Get a grip.
Indeed.
There are some excellent organizations that have a plethora of information sharing the evidence and proof two of which are Answers In Genesis & Creation Research Institute.
HAHAHAHAHA. AiG and CRI are dens of professional liars which is clearly demonstrated. They peddle pseudoscience and call it religion.
 
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AV1611VET

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"Genesis" is a document from c. 6th century BCE, we don't know what source material was used to compile and redact it.

How about this for starters?

Genesis 5:1a This is the book of the generations of Adam.
 
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