vain repetitions

[Xeno.of.athens]

Let's refocus on the thread's main topic, which concerns not the audible or inaudible voices within one's heart or spirit, but the employment of the Lord's Prayer in liturgical practices and the concept of vain repetition.

 

[ViaCrucis]

How do you know you're born again

Baptizatus sum.

if GOD doesn't acknowledge you?

You mean like Jesus suffering and dying for us? That seems like a pretty significant acknowledgement of us sinners.

What, exactly, do we need more than Jesus, His word, His Sacraments, and all the gifts and promises already laid out bare and plain to us in the teaching of the Apostles?

What are you praying for if you don't expect Him to answer?

Well, for starters: His kingdom come, His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Unlike the Pagans who used a lot of words because they were trying to get the gods to do and act and say things back, Jesus tells His followers to pray in faith, trusting in a good and loving Father who already knows what we need.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ARBITER01]

Indeed, God may speak to one's heart in a way that only they can understand, and while others cannot hear it, this communication is not considered audible, as 'audible' implies that it can be heard by the ear.

I realize you'd rather bring the thread back to the topic, and I agree, but there is no word to use but audible when I hear Him speak to me that way.

But anyways, back to the topic.

 

[ARBITER01]

Baptizatus sum.



You mean like Jesus suffering and dying for us? That seems like a pretty significant acknowledgement of us sinners.



Well, for starters: His kingdom come, His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Unlike the Pagans who used a lot of words because they were trying to get the gods to do and act and say things back, Jesus tells His followers to pray in faith, trusting in a good and loving Father who already knows what we need.

-CryptoLutheran

In other words, you don't expect an answer to your prayers.

 

[ViaCrucis]

In other words, you don't expect an answer to your prayers.

I pray, and have faith that God is Faithful and True.

I used to pray and expected a sign, maybe some kind of voice, or something. Of course expecting those things only led me to a great deal of despair, as the harder I tried to manufacture my own spirituality, the harder I tried to be the most spiritual I could, the worse I got.

Perhaps I should have listened to those dark whispers though, the ones that told me I wasn't really saved. The ones that told me I could never be loved by God. At least, I have a feeling that's what you'd tell me. That the fact that I lacked any such experience was evidence of my not being really saved, really born again, or that I lacked the Holy Spirit, etc. I have a suspicion that is something you'd tell me--it's also what those rather malevolent, malicious, despairing ringings in my mind often said.

I'll just let that simmer for a moment.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I pray, and have faith that God is Faithful and True.

I used to pray and expected a sign, maybe some kind of voice, or something. Of course expecting those things only led me to a great deal of despair, as the harder I tried to manufacture my own spirituality, the harder I tried to be the most spiritual I could, the worse I got.

Perhaps I should have listened to those dark whispers though, the ones that told me I wasn't really saved. The ones that told me I could never be loved by God. At least, I have a feeling that's what you'd tell me. That the fact that I lacked any such experience was evidence of my not being really saved, really born again, or that I lacked the Holy Spirit, etc. I have a suspicion that is something you'd tell me--it's also what those rather malevolent, malicious, despairing ringings in my mind often said.

I'll just let that simmer for a moment.

-CryptoLutheran

It's heartening to hear that you've discovered a more hopeful perspective, one that resonates with the teachings of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Praying liturgical prayers is beneficial as they instruct Christians on our true priorities: to glorify God's name, yearn for His kingdom to come, and for His will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. They remind us of our daily needs, the importance of seeking God's forgiveness for our sins, and the necessity of forgiving others, just as we are forgiven. They also guide us to seek protection from evil. This wisdom is internalized and affirmed through the Lord's Prayer, as we heed the words of Jesus:

In this way, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.​

 

[ViaCrucis]

You've had such a sad story. I am glad you've found a better perspective, one more in tune with the gospel of our Lord, Jesus Christ. One reason to pray liturgical prayers is that they teach a Christian what priorities really matter such as having God's name glorified and desiring his rule to come so that his will which is done in heaven may also be done here on Earth; Christians have earthly needs so we ask for them and for God to forgive us for our sins which brings to mind our need to forgive those who wrong us and finally we seek deliverance from the evil one. All this is brought home and embedded in the heart, and we hear God's voice in the Lord's prayer as we obey Jesus' word when he said:

In this way, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.​

What grounds me, regularly, is the Christ-centeredness of the Liturgy. One of the most shocking things for me the first couple times I experienced the Liturgy was how it was positively saturated with Jesus.

It's also how I knew I was home.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ARBITER01]

I pray, and have faith that God is Faithful and True.

I used to pray and expected a sign, maybe some kind of voice, or something. Of course expecting those things only led me to a great deal of despair, as the harder I tried to manufacture my own spirituality, the harder I tried to be the most spiritual I could, the worse I got.

Perhaps I should have listened to those dark whispers though, the ones that told me I wasn't really saved. The ones that told me I could never be loved by God. At least, I have a feeling that's what you'd tell me. That the fact that I lacked any such experience was evidence of my not being really saved, really born again, or that I lacked the Holy Spirit, etc. I have a suspicion that is something you'd tell me--it's also what those rather malevolent, malicious, despairing ringings in my mind often said.

I'll just let that simmer for a moment.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't really have an ambition to tear people down. What they know currently is what they have been able to know so far.

I share my thoughts and experiences with GOD on here to incite a curiosity, a desire, not a jealousy.

If what you have currently is sufficient, that's good, but none of us should be ever comfortable or complacent, we should always desire more.

Edit: But if you're not born again, you're not born again, sorry. I'll let that marinate for a while also.

 

[prodromos]

I share my thoughts and experiences with GOD on here to incite a curiosity, a desire, not a jealousy.

My Church has a long history of people having similar experiences, and let's just say your post does not inspire curiosity, desire or jealousy

 

[ARBITER01]

My Church has a long history of people having similar experiences, and let's just say your post does not inspire curiosity, desire or jealousy

Sure they do,.....oh yea,....

 

[ARBITER01]

I pray, and have faith that God is Faithful and True.

I used to pray and expected a sign, maybe some kind of voice, or something. Of course expecting those things only led me to a great deal of despair, as the harder I tried to manufacture my own spirituality, the harder I tried to be the most spiritual I could, the worse I got.

Perhaps I should have listened to those dark whispers though, the ones that told me I wasn't really saved. The ones that told me I could never be loved by God. At least, I have a feeling that's what you'd tell me. That the fact that I lacked any such experience was evidence of my not being really saved, really born again, or that I lacked the Holy Spirit, etc. I have a suspicion that is something you'd tell me--it's also what those rather malevolent, malicious, despairing ringings in my mind often said.

I'll just let that simmer for a moment.

-CryptoLutheran

I'll comment further on this,....

Mat 7:13 ¶ Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction: and many there be, which go in thereat.
Mat 7:14 For strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life: and few there be, that find it.

Ol Tyndale's translation is really good in this area.

According to Jesus, there will not be all that many people that actually do find salvation. No matter what any church may say to you, it is up to each of us to make sure that Jesus knows us, to make sure that we actually are born again.

All the tears in the world will not buy anyone a ticket into heaven during judgment day. If you're not one of His,... then you're not one of His.

 

[dzheremi]

According to Jesus, there will not be all that many people that actually do find salvation. No matter what any church may say to you, it is up to each of us to make sure that Jesus knows us, to make sure that we actually are born again.

All the tears in the world will not buy anyone a ticket into heaven during judgment day. If you're not one of His,... then you're not one of His.

I agree in the main, but isn't this more of a reason for humility than to pretend to be a soothsayer regarding who is saved and who is not, according to however you personally read the scriptures? I note that you've questioned me and others in this thread already regarding how we know that we're saved why we are praying, which does not reflect a spirit of humility, to put it politely.

To that end, as we pray in the litanies of the Compline as part of the Agpeya (the Coptic daily prayer book) is instructive of how we think of ourselves (NB: I'm posting this here in answer to your earlier questions regarding "How do you know..." or "Why are you praying if...", and as a response to the above):

Behold, I am about to stand before the Just Judge terrified and trembling because of my many sins. For a life spent in pleasures deserves condemnation. But repent, O my soul, so long as you dwell on this earth, for inside the grave, dust does not praise. And among the dead, no one remembers, neither in hades, does anyone give thanks. Therefore arise from the slumber of laziness, and entreat the Savior, repenting and saying, “God, have mercy on me and save me.”

If life were everlasting, and this world ever-existing, you would have an excuse, O my soul. But if your wicked deeds and ugly evils were exposed before the Just Judge, what answer would you give while you are lying on the bed of sins, negligent in disciplining the flesh!? O Christ our God, before Your awesome seat of judgement I am terrified, and before Your council of judgement I submit, and from the Light of Your divine radiance I tremble, I, the wretched and defiled, who lies on my bed, negligent in my life. But I take example of the Publican, beating my chest and saying, “O God, forgive me and have mercy on me, a sinner.”

+++

Abba Anthony said, “I saw the snares that the enemy spreads out over the world and I said, “What can get through from such snares?” Then I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Humility.’"

 

[ARBITER01]

I agree in the main, but isn't this more of a reason for humility than to pretend to be a soothsayer regarding who is saved and who is not, according to however you personally read the scriptures? I note that you've questioned me and others in this thread already regarding how we know that we're saved why we are praying, which does not reflect a spirit of humility, to put it politely.

You're referring to this,....

How do you know you're born again if GOD doesn't acknowledge you? What are you praying for if you don't expect Him to answer?

I don't see that as soothsaying whether you are or not, I just see it as a couple of really hard questions that should be asked of those tied heavily to a particular church or denomination.

Are you in this for your church or Jesus? If it's Jesus, then you better make sure you belong to Him, that He knows you and is active in your life.

Humility thinks the questions are mean instead of true.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't think your questions are mean; I think they don't reflect an appropriate spirit of humility.

 

[ARBITER01]

I don't think your questions are mean; I think they don't reflect an appropriate spirit of humility.

If I have any sort of personal problem, GOD is going to point that out to me, and help me deal with it.

And until He does, your opinions about me don't carry much weight. In fact, I think I'm doing just fine.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If I have any sort of personal problem, GOD is going to point that out to me, and help me deal with it.

And until He does, your opinions about me don't carry much weight. In fact, I think I'm doing just fine.

I understand that I am responding to a message intended for someone else, and while this may be considered an intrusion, I believe it is justified since the discussion is taking place on a public forum, particularly on a thread that I initiated. Therefore, I do not regret stepping in. However, I would kindly request that you moderate the tone of your posts that criticize the prayer practices of others involved in this conversation.

 

[ARBITER01]

I understand that I am responding to a message intended for someone else, and while this may be considered an intrusion, I believe it is justified since the discussion is taking place on a public forum, particularly on a thread that I initiated. Therefore, I do not regret stepping in. However, I would kindly request that you moderate the tone of your posts that criticize the prayer practices of others involved in this conversation.

You can request a lot of things.

I don't care about your prayer practices or techniques, I have my own, I was questioning whether people are receiving an answer from Jesus in those endeavors.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What do you think that the Lord means when he says "Thus therefore shall you pray"?

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.​

(Matthew 6:5-13 KJV)
Can you obey the Lord's command without praying the Lord's prayer?

The Lord's prayer was not designed to be a mantra to be quoted as such. It is a list of prayer points to guide us how to pray. We are to be conscious that God is our Father and not some high and mighty inaccessible potentate that we cannot personally approach Him with our requests. They who are led of the Spirit are the sons of God. We seek to find out what His will is. "Be not unwise but understanding what the will of God it. We tell Him how we look forward to the coming of His kingdom and pray that we may be prepared for it. We ask Him provide for our daily needs, because He promised, "My God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory."

These points are examples of how we put flesh on the bare points to guide the way we are to pray. This is the counter the practice of some Jews who stand before the Wailing Wall, bowing and reading stuff out of a book. The Lord sees these a vain repetitions. Also singing the lines of a song during worship time, repeating the same line time after time is also vain repetition.

 

[Hawkins]

One of the purpose of praying is that it usually remains the only way for one to communicate with God in a bidirectional manner. So it's not necessarily for something prayed must be fulfilled. It's more about how the distance between one and God is shortened. Prayers usually form a kind of intangible pattern for one to reckon more subconsciously. I pray the Lord's prayer on a daily basis. I actually learned the memorized the prayer when I was in a Catholic high school and being an atheist. Till this day I still perceive that it helps to shortened the gap between God me, and the more I pray the more I can tell the importance of the content itself of the Lord's prayer, such us "lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil". That applies almost every minutes of every Christian.

Does God lead you not into temptation but deliever you from evil? You can't tell. You can never say that it's in vain!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Lord's prayer was not designed to be a mantra to be quoted as such. It is a list of prayer points to guide us how to pray. We are to be conscious that God is our Father and not some high and mighty inaccessible potentate that we cannot personally approach Him with our requests. They who are led of the Spirit are the sons of God. We seek to find out what His will is. "Be not unwise but understanding what the will of God it. We tell Him how we look forward to the coming of His kingdom and pray that we may be prepared for it. We ask Him provide for our daily needs, because He promised, "My God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory."

These points are examples of how we put flesh on the bare points to guide the way we are to pray. This is the counter the practice of some Jews who stand before the Wailing Wall, bowing and reading stuff out of a book. The Lord sees these a vain repetitions. Also singing the lines of a song during worship time, repeating the same line time after time is also vain repetition.

The Psalms and the Song of Miriam have been sung and prayed by Israel for centuries as they were given by God as part of the revelation to Israel. Similarly, the Lord's Prayer and various prayers found in the Gospels and epistles of the New Testament have been recited by Christians for two millennia. Neither Israel nor the Church has a concept of a mantra; that practice is associated with Eastern religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism.