Two Aspects of Salvation (Believers Need to Be Concerned With):

[ozso]

Key snag being "commit" as opposed to evil thoughts defiling us, without external actions, per Mark 7:21-23, Matt 5:28, etc

Yes. But he tends to think those who argue with him want to indulge in sin and still be saved.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Yes. But he tends to think those who argue with him want to indulge in sin and still be saved.

I'm picturing those who wanted to stone the adulterous woman. They were honest enough to walk away

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The mind is never free from evil present within us, Mark 7:21-23,

Not so.

Matthew 12:33-35 says,
33 “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Verse 33 says make the tree good and its fruit good. Note: This is not possible if you can never do good because you are enslaved to always doing evil and sin.
Verse 34 is Jesus criticizing the Pharisees for speaking good things with them being evil. Meaning, they need a heart transplant. They need to be born again where they have a new heart with new desires (See: Ezekiel 36:26, and Jeremiah 31:33).
Verse 35 says a good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things. So again, one needs a new heart whereby good treasure may reside within it.

Romans 7:17-21

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).
Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.
Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

None of us are ever sinless in this present life. Not even for a nano second

Unless your gnostic or believe in Christian Science, nobody is saying that we have never sinned in the past as a part of our old life. Nobody is also saying that believers cannot stumble on occasion on their road to recovery in living for the Lord in dying to oneself, either.

But can honestly read 2 Corinthians 7:1 and actually say with a straight face that you believe what it says at face value?

2 Corinthians 7:1
”…let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

Unless you try to explain away this verse or you ignore it, your statement above is simply in contradiction with the Scriptures.
Then again, we are living in the last days, so I am not surprised. Most today justify a sin and still be saved type belief.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm picturing those who wanted to stone the adulterous woman. They were honest enough to walk away

This was said in context to Jews who were not born again. Jesus was not making a point on how one can never overcome sin at this point. In fact, Jesus and His followers make this point of overcoming the darkness of this world on many occasions. But most today do not want to see because they want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want the best of both worlds, but it doesn’t work like that.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

This was said in context to Jews who were not born again.

How many of God's Words would such a claim eliminate? (only applicable unto whom it was spoken, by individual or class)

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Matthew 12:33-35 says,
33 “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

What makes you think it's not both?

Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan. Two different entities. Both due opposite Words

 

[bbbbbbb]

How many of God's Words would such a claim eliminate? (only applicable unto whom it was spoken, by individual or class)

Wow! That is a complete can of worms you have there. Was the Great Commission given to the disciples only or to each and every Christian?

 

[bbbbbbb]

What makes you think it's not both?

Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan. Two different entities. Both due opposite Words

Jesus also said that whoever was not for Him was against Him and, also, that those who were not against Him were for Him.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Wow! That is a complete can of worms you have there. Was the Great Commission given to the disciples only or to each and every Christian?

IF believers are not disciples they aren't Christians. Luke 14:26

Nevertheless the Word of God, all of it, is for everyone. Matt 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut 8:3

Just quoting the Master

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Jesus also said that whoever was not for Him was against Him and, also, that those who were not against Him were for Him.

I might suggest that both sides of every equation Jesus provided is true for everyone

The evil present within us all is definitely against Him. Mark 7:21-23, Romans 7:21

 

[David Lamb]

Wow! That is a complete can of worms you have there. Was the Great Commission given to the disciples only or to each and every Christian?

The word "Christian" is only used a few times in the bible. Christians are called saints, Christ's sheep, followers of the way, believers, and yes, disciples.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I might suggest that both sides of every equation Jesus provided is true for everyone

The evil present within us all is definitely against Him. Mark 7:21-23, Romans 7:21

I completely agree.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The word "Christian" is only used a few times in the bible. Christians are called saints, Christ's sheep, followers of the way, believers, and yes, disciples.

However, not all Christians are Apostles, are they? The Great Commission was given to the eleven Apostles. Some (not myself) would argue that the Great Commission was meant for the Apostles only. Then, of course, comes the sticky issue regarding whether or not Matthias and Paul were also included, not to mention the various other apostles mentioned in the New Testament.

The bottom line with this argument is that it gets folks off the hook for doing any form of personal evangelism and putting the onus on others, usually the pastor of their church.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What makes you think it's not both?

Because of Matthew 13:41-42, John 8:34-35, Jude 1:4, Galatians 6:8-9, 1 Timothy 5:8, 1 John 3:10, Romans 2:5-11, and John 5:29.

Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan. Two different entities. Both due opposite Words

Jesus did not keep calling Peter as Satan.
It was a one time event because of Peter’s action in trying to prevent Jesus in going to the cross.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How many of God's Words would such a claim eliminate? (only applicable unto whom it was spoken, by individual or class)

The point is that this was not directed towards saved individuals.

 

[bbbbbbb]

IF believers are not disciples they aren't Christians. Luke 14:26

Nevertheless the Word of God, all of it, is for everyone. Matt 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut 8:3

Just quoting the Master

However, not all Christians are Apostles, are they? The Great Commission was given to the eleven Apostles. Some (not myself) would argue that the Great Commission was meant for the Apostles only. Then, of course, comes the sticky issue regarding whether or not Matthias and Paul were also included, not to mention the various other apostles mentioned in the New Testament.

The bottom line with this argument is that it gets folks off the hook for doing any form of personal evangelism and putting the onus on others, usually the pastor of their church.

The point is that this was not directed towards saved individuals.

Was Peter a saved or lost individual when Jesus called him the devil?

 

[Platte]

I haven’t really seen where Salvation is defined. What is Salvation?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I haven’t really seen where Salvation is defined. What is Salvation?

That is an excellent question. Most folks assume that everyone else understands that salvation is what they themselves think it to be.

 

[Platte]

That is an excellent question. Most folks assume that everyone else understands that salvation is what they themselves think it to be.

Yeah I think that knowing what Salvation is is the first step. It is what life is all about. We should all understand and know what that is.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yeah I think that knowing what Salvation is is the first step. It is what life is all about. We should all understand and know what that is.

I completely agree.