The Didache: Proof of Deviation From Christ's Teachings by Apostolic Fathers

[concretecamper]

@concretecamper what are the scriptures these verses refer to?
1 Timothy 5:18, 19; 1 Corinthians 15:1-8; Romans 16:25-27

1Tim 5:18-19 references Deuteronomy
1 Cor 15:1-8 doesn't mention Scripture
Romans 16:25-27 OT prophets.

Try again

 

[Halbhh]

praying the Lord’s Prayer three times a day. Of course its better to go beyond that.

Ah, for that question of how long this prayer is for (is it only for half a day, or one time is only enough for the mid day, etc.) -- we should trust Christ's wording above any other idea:

"11 Give us today our daily bread."

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 6:5-15 - New International Version

Prayer - “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father...

www.biblegateway.com

Here, we've prayed for bread for the whole day.

 

[CoreyD]

Paul is talking about the prophecy of the Antichrist. What’s your point? Do you think the Antichrist has been on earth since the first century of Christianity? Do we have one world government yet? He will also come during the tribulations which is only a 7 year span. If you’re implying that the antichrist came during the first century of Christianity then that would mean he’s had almost a 2,000 year reign already.

That is not an explanation. That is an assertion based on nothing.
Can you please explain 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12 verse by verse... subject matter by subject matter.
Thank you.

 

[CoreyD]

Simple math. Timothy is born around 17 AD. The scriptures he knew from his youth? You figure it out. Ugh

Where did you get your math from? 17 AD?
Please show me where you got Timothy's age from.

If Timothy was born around 17 AD, when Paul wrote him this letter, Timothy would have been about 46 years old. Hardly a youth.
Paul wrote at 1 Timothy 4:12...
Let no one despise your youth, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.

So that would not make your idea a brilliant one.

1Tim 5:18-19 references Deuteronomy

The Lord Jesus Christ also said, as recorded at Matthew 10:9, 10, and Luke 10:7, "for the worker deserves his wages".

1 Cor 15:1-8 doesn't mention Scripture

It does not?
You must not have read it.

1 Corinthians 15:1-8 reads...
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

These scriptures are found in the earliest Gospel - Matthew 27:60; Matthew 28:7, and Jesus quoted from Isaiah in reference to his death. Luke 24:44-47

Surely, you do not think Paul was there lying, do you?

Romans 16:25-27 OT prophets.

Can you quote the scripture? Where is the prophetic scripture now having been made manifest?
It cannot be "OT prophets". That is not "now", during the times of the apostles.

Romans 16:25-27
25 Now to Him being able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery having been kept secret in times of the ages,
26 but now having been made manifest also through the prophetic Scriptures, according to the commandment of the Eternal God, having been made known to all the Gentiles unto the obedience of faith -
27 to the only wise God be the glory to the ages of the ages, which is through Jesus Christ. Amen

It was made known through Paul's writings... as he said... according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery having been kept secret in times of the ages

Yes, the scriptures also included Paul's writings, which were some of the earliest known Christian Greek scriptures.

Try again

Try what? Changing your mind?
Not a chance. I'd wrestle a bear empty handed first.

 

[CoreyD]

Ah, for that question of how long this prayer is for (is it only for half a day, or one time is only enough for the mid day, etc.) -- we should trust Christ's wording above any other idea:

"11 Give us today our daily bread."

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 6:5-15 - New International Version

Prayer - “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father...

www.biblegateway.com

Here, we've prayed for bread for the whole day.

I like that.

 

[CoreyD]

Yes the word is translated as kill or murder in the NT brother.

I know how the word can be translated, but neither the Jews nor Christians read "kill".
Today's translator - some of them - render the Greek word incorrectly inappropriately.

 

[concretecamper]

If Timothy was born around 17 AD, when Paul wrote him this letter, Timothy would have been about 46 years old. Hardly a youth.

Precisely.

 

[concretecamper]

Try what? Changing your mind?

No, posting something you can reasonably defend.

So far, you've been unable to post anything saying that 2 Tim 3:16 is referring to anything but the Tanakh.

 

[CoreyD]

No, posting something you can reasonably defend.

So far, you've been unable to post anything saying that 2 Tim 3:16 is referring to anything but the Tanakh.

I have.
However, if you are comfortable denying that the apostles refered to the Greek scriptures as scripture, that is up to you my dear.
It's all here for all to read.

1 Cor 15:1-8 doesn't mention Scripture

It does not?
You must not have read it.

1 Corinthians 15:1-8 reads...
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

These scriptures are found in the earliest Gospel - Matthew 27:60; Matthew 28:7, and Jesus quoted from Isaiah in reference to his death. Luke 24:44-47

Surely, you do not think Paul was there lying, do you?

What is more, you have not answered any of my questions.
That is also here for all to see.

So, if there is nothing more you want to say, that will move in any purposeful direction... Take good care. Bye.

 

[tall73]

Good points.
I appreciate this.
Is this post better?

Yes, thank you. I think posting directly from the text will eliminate some unnecessary confusion based on the scholar's statements.

 

[tall73]

Yes. I am not contending that.
Thank you.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Lukaris]

I guess if the Lord’s statement, “it is more blessed to give than to receive” ( Acts 20:35) was only found in the Didache, it would be proof positive of deviation from the Gospel. After all, it is not found in the Gospels and where else would it come from? ( John 21:25, hmm).

It was also stated that praying the Lord’s Prayer 3 times a day is some sort of deviation. Is a simple practice of prayer patterned after Jewish prayer in Biblical times wrong? Plus Daniel 6:10-11?

Amidah - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[concretecamper]

I have.
However, if you are comfortable denying that the apostles refered to the Greek scriptures as scripture, that is up to you my dear.
It's all here for all to read.

Good grief, stay on topic. We are not talking about the Septuagint. Ugh

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is not an explanation. That is an assertion based on nothing.
Can you please explain 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12 verse by verse... subject matter by subject matter.
Thank you.

An assertion based on nothing? If you back up a few verses you’ll see that Paul says that

“Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He’s talking about Jesus’ second coming when the believers will be united with Him.

“that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He tells them not to believe in false claims of Christ’s return.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He tells them that Christ’s coming will not come until after the antichrist.

“who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Then he refers to the prophecy of the abomination of desolation from the book of Daniel.

“And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭6‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I don’t know who is restraining him but apparently someone is.

“Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Then Jesus will slay him when He returns.

“that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Then he clarifies that the antichrist is the one who will be slain and he will perform fake signs and fake miracles for his followers who will be deceived by him who will also perish with him on judgement day in the lake of fire.

“For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And because the followers of the antichrist loved wickedness Jesus allows them to be deceived so that they will meet their just fate.

There’s your verse by verse explanation. So I’ll ask again, do you think that the antichrist came 2,000 years ago and began deceiving everyone already?

 

[tall73]

​

I don't know if scholars interpreted that to mean, persons must become part of the church, or attend, in order to receive the word.

I think it likely that both of these quotes are applications of statements by Jesus regarding those sinning against others:

But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned.​

​

And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents.​

​

See

Matthew 5:23-24 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. (NKJV)​

​

Matthew 18:15-17 15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. (NKJV)​

​

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, posting something you can reasonably defend.

So far, you've been unable to post anything saying that 2 Tim 3:16 is referring to anything but the Tanakh.

I’m pretty sure there’s nothing in the OT about Jesus being raised on the third day.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Good grief, stay on topic. We are not talking about the Septuagint. Ugh

He’s talking about the New Testament not the Septuagint.

 

[CoreyD]

Thank you.

An assertion based on nothing? If you back up a few verses you’ll see that Paul says that

“Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He’s talking about Jesus’ second coming when the believers will be united with Him.

“that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He tells them not to believe in false claims of Christ’s return.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He tells them that Christ’s coming will not come until after the antichrist.

Apostasy? What's that?
Can you please explain what scriptural basis you have for referring to the man of lawlessness as "the antichrist"?
Are they not many antichrists... plural? 1 John 2:18, 19

“who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Then he refers to the prophecy of the abomination of desolation from the book of Daniel.

Unless you see the book of Daniel mentioned there, you are not doing a verse by verse explanation, but are inserting your interpretation.
Please do not do that. I am not asking for your interpretation. Just the explanation.

You can explain what the man of lawlessness opposes and exalts himself above, and what the temple of God is that he takes a seat in.
All those details are what's important.
You are doing good otherwise though.
Thank you.

“And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭6‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I don’t know who is restraining him but apparently someone is.

Thank you.
He is being restrained from taking his seat in the temple of God.
We'll leave a question mark there at What restrains him from doing so? until we get some more details on the subject matter previously mentioned.

“Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Then Jesus will slay him when He returns.

Wait. Hold your horses a bit there.
The verse says, "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming".
So, when this man of lawlessness appears he will not be done away with.
The second coming of Christ is future. Agreed?

Therefore, The man of lawlessness is revealed... Yes. Explanation?

“that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Then he clarifies that the antichrist is the one who will be slain and he will perform fake signs and fake miracles for his followers who will be deceived by him who will also perish with him on judgement day in the lake of fire.

“For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And because the followers of the antichrist loved wickedness Jesus allows them to be deceived so that they will meet their just fate.

Okay, so persons who do not love the truth are deceived.
So, tell me more about this.
When are they deceived, and what are those deceptive means he uses to mislead persons?
Please explain.
All this occurs after the one who restrains him is out of the way, so that is an important detail in knowing when all this takes place.

There’s your verse by verse explanation. So I’ll ask again, do you think that the antichrist came 2,000 years ago and began deceiving everyone already?

I'll answer your question, once we get all the details.
Remember. You are filling them in for both of us.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Can you please explain what scriptural basis you have for referring to the man of lawlessness as "the antichrist"?
Are they not many antichrists... plural? 1

No Paul is referring to a specific man of lawlessness that is prophesied to come before Christ returns whom Christ will kill with the “sword coming out of His mouth”. You’ve already demonstrated that you have a significant understanding of the scriptures, there’s no way that you don’t see this.

 

[concretecamper]

I’m pretty sure there’s nothing in the OT about Jesus being raised on the third day.

That wasn't the point of 2 Tim 3:16.