Free will and determinism

[Neogaia777]

No one is culpable/responsible for their actions or inactions.

Because we don't save or damn ourselves, but that has already been decided/chosen for us.

The universe is/has been always deterministic from the beginning, and this can be proven or shown with or by the laws of physics scientifically.

If even one level of the thing can be shown/proven to always behave/act deterministically, then all levels below or above it must also be deterministic. I am thinking of the level of the atom in this case, etc.

People don't like to admit this for a lot of reasons, etc. With the religious crowd, it is because it severely messes with their religious beliefs and/or theology, etc. For others, it's just plain old rebelliousness and wanting to be in control of their own destiny, etc.

But neither are adequate reasons for denying the truth that can be proven/shown scientifically, etc.

And as far as theology goes, if this world/us/this universe is not deterministic, and does not behave deterministically, etc, then there is no one, not even a God, who can know everything, etc.

But I believe there is, etc.

As for other theological issues associated with this, I have worked almost all of them out already, etc, and you can ask me about them if you want to.

But if you see any of this as a reason to behave or act evil, or in an evil way, then there is something very much seriously wrong with you, because that's just plain old stupid, and is the ultimate act of rebellion against any God, etc. But if that's what you truly want to do, then just do it I guess.

You'll go to hell, and show that you were just always one of those who was only ever destined for hell, but just do it if that's what you really want to do I guess.

God Bless.

"But that means God has already decided some to go to hell and they don't have any kind of choice in the matter, and can't change it ever, etc?"

This is correct.

But from our perspective, it still can be changed, etc, but just not from God's, etc.

And hell/lake of fire is not what you think it is either, etc. But in the end, it is just only getting/having only more of this only here, etc. And that has always been forever, etc.

And also, it was also necessary for God to have some vessels that only were/forever are, etc, only fit for a bad or evil use here, etc. And those don't ever get to go beyond here, etc. And that has also always been forever, etc. Or will always be from forever, and will always continue to into forever, etc. And cannot be changed from God's perspective, etc, but only still can be from ours, etc.

And as for other theological conundrums, ask me, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

"But that means God has already decided some to go to hell and they don't have any kind of choice in the matter, and can't change it ever, etc?"

This is correct.

But from our perspective, it still can be changed, etc, but just not from God's, etc.

And hell/lake of fire is not what you think it is either, etc. But in the end, it is just only getting/having only more of this only here, etc. And that has always been forever, etc.

And also, it was also necessary for God to have some vessels that only were/forever are, etc, only fit for a bad or evil use here, etc. And those don't ever get to go beyond here, etc. And that has also always been forever, etc. Or will always be from forever, and will always continue to into forever, etc. And cannot be changed from God's perspective, etc, but only still can be from ours, etc.

And as for other theological conundrums, ask me, etc.

God Bless.

In order to have some that start out here, be able to go there, etc, it takes/took/will always take them having to go through and experience some evil here, before they can go there, etc.

Which is the only real reason for having any of this here, and for having to have some vessels/people that will always be only ever bad, or are only meant for an evil purpose here, and don't ever get to go there, but only ever and forever always only get to experience just more of this here, etc.

And that is/has been always forever/from forever, in both creations that have been before this, and will forever be after this here, but the rest are going to Heaven always when a creation ends here, which is the one and only reason for any of this here, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

And as far as theology goes, if this world/us/this universe is not deterministic, and does not behave deterministically, etc, then there is no one, not even a God, who can know everything, etc.

But I believe there is, etc.

As for the above, the very nature of having two or more different possibilities, is that no one, not even a God, can possibly know for sure which way or how it is going to go for sure either way, etc. Not even a God can do this, etc.

But the only way He or anyone can know for 100% sure is only if it was a 100% possibility either way, which would mean the other one was always an absolutely zero percent chance either way, which means there never was any kind of real possibility of any kind of other way it could have gone or ever can go either way, etc, if any kind of being already knows it with 100% certainty, which is the only way any kind of God or any kind of being can know absolutely everything either way, etc, otherwise no other being can know absolutely everything there is to know with 100% certainty either way.

God Bless.

 

[partinobodycular]

free will is defined as the ability to make decisions that are not determined by prior events

First, thanks for providing me with the time to think, unfortunately, strange things tend to happen when I think.

In this particular case a thought occurred to me... why are we conscious?

Why would evolution endow all higher lifeforms with an ability that seems to serve absolutely no purpose?

If all of my actions are predetermined, then there's no need for me to be conscious. The exact same thing is going to happen whether I'm consciously involved in the process or not. How does evolution even select for something that makes absolutely no difference?

Unless of course, it does make a difference, and my conscious contribution allows me to do things that I couldn't do based solely upon prior events.

Keep in mind that you can't simply argue that being conscious of potential outcomes is beneficial, therefore consciousness is beneficial, because I don't actually have to be conscious to do that. My brain is constantly compensating for things of which I'm completely unaware. Consciousness would therefore seem to be completely superfluous.

Hence the question... why are we conscious?

 

[Neogaia777]

Hence the question... why are we conscious?

Maybe we're not, but maybe that doesn't come until later, etc.

But, maybe I'll just start out by just simply asking you what you think "consciousness" is, etc? And why it is you think human beings in particular are so "special/significant enough" to have it right now, etc?

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

@partinobodycular

Ok, you obviously think you are "conscious", but why is that, or what do you think that is?

Consider your very own thought processes in your own thinking right now?

How do you have your very next thought? Or what causes you to think the way that you do, etc? Or what has caused what you are thinking right now, etc? And how did those thoughts happen, or develop, or come, or form when they came to you, etc? Are not all our thoughts caused/provoked by whatever was provoking us/causing us to think the way that we were before it, etc? And then those before that, and then those before that, and so on and so forth, etc. All caused/provoked by whatever was happening or was going on by whatever was happening/going on/coming in before it, etc. And there is nothing novel, or ever original, or new, or not 100% fully predictable about them ever, etc.

"Consciousness" itself "grows" or "evolves" or is always growing, or is always an exercise in continuing growth, etc. And what causes that evolution or growth is not ever anything chosen/caused by us ever, but the outside causes has already always chosen it for us, etc, so that even our very own thoughts are not original, or are not novel, or are ever truly our own, etc, or does not ever not have outside source that caused it ever, etc.

If you existed in a vacuum, then you would have no thoughts, and not ever any thoughts at all, etc. So all of our thoughts are always determined/caused/provoked by whatever stimuli was taken in or was processed before it from outside sources, etc. And once they are caused, there is only one predictable way they can go until they encounter the next cause, which then determines your thought processes after that until the next cause after that, etc. If there were never any causes, or you existed in a vacuum, you would quite literally "not think, or ever be able to think, or ever be able to have any kind of thought/thoughts at all", etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

@partinobodycular

I get it though, you have worked very hard on your intellect and your (sorry about this part, but it's true) "ego", etc. And it's very very hard for you to admit that maybe you are not in control, or that everyone is on equal footing, etc. I fully "get it", etc, as I was just like you not all that long ago, etc. And I would love to not blame you for it, but at the same time "it is what it is, and things are what they are, and that's that", etc.

We are all just individual cogs in the machine, etc.

And it's time we started truly working together on things, etc.

But for that, we all have to be on the same page/level first, etc.

And that gets into what I said about "equal footing", etc.

Individual egos, or thinking ourselves above and/or higher or greater or so very much more different from everyone else has to go, etc.

Also us exalting ourselves or humans or humanity or man, or man/humankind, to the level of God/gods, has to go also, etc.

But it's kinda like having to go to the dentist though, lol.

God Bless.

 

[partinobodycular]

And why it is you think human beings in particular are so "special/significant enough" to have it right now, etc?

I don't see anything particularly special about human beings, nor biological entities for that matter. Not knowing why things are conscious makes for a whole lot of questions, but it doesn't make for a whole lot of answers.

Why am I conscious right now?

As far as I know, there's never been a time... ever, that I haven't been conscious. But if there ever were such a time I'd have no way of knowing about it. Therefore, why should it seem special?

But, maybe I'll just start out by just simply asking you what you think "consciousness" is, etc?

The answer to this question always seems like philosophical mumbo jumbo to me. People will always nit pick your response. But to paraphrase DesCartes a bit, consciousness is simply being aware that one exists. Surprisingly, as an epistemological solipsist, it's not a discussion that I like to get into.

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't see anything particularly special about human beings, nor biological entities for that matter. Not knowing why things are conscious makes for a whole lot of questions, but it doesn't make for a whole lot of answers.

Why am I conscious right now?

As far as I know, there's never been a time... ever, that I haven't been conscious. But if there ever were such a time I'd have no way of knowing about it. Therefore, why should it seem special?



The answer to this question always seems like philosophical mumbo jumbo to me. People will always nit pick your response. But to paraphrase DesCartes a bit, consciousness is simply being aware that one exists. Surprisingly, as an epistemological solipsist, it's not a discussion that I like to get into.

So your definition of consciousness doesn't have anything to do with "free will"?

But by your definition of consciousness, anything that can feel can be or become aware that it exists. Some say some plants might even be able to do this, etc.

What are some of your thoughts about those ideas, or that, etc?

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[partinobodycular]

How do you have your very next thought?

Short answer... I have no idea.

"Consciousness" itself "grows" or "evolves" or is always growing, or is always an exercise in continuing growth, etc.

I accept this part without question.

And what causes that evolution or growth is not ever anything chosen/caused by us ever

This bit however is entirely an assumption. Everything that is, was, or ever will be, may be the result of my choices. Then again, my choices may simply be meaningless prattle in a reality that simply couldn't care less about me. But that's fine... I couldn't care less about it from time to time.

If you existed in a vacuum, then you would have no thoughts, and not ever any thoughts at all, etc.

As a solipsist this has always been an intriguing question... does the concept of what I am, by necessity include the concept of what I am not. If so, then you may have the causal series backwards, the things outside of me... don't cause me... I cause them.

The thing is, there's no way to tell whether I'm the effect or the cause.

This is why I don't generally discuss solipsism... most people are too enamored with their own worldview to even consider the possibility that they're wrong. As for me, that's what I do all the time.

That's solipsism in a nutshell, try very, very hard not to assume anything.

 

[Neogaia777]

@partinobodycular

I get it though, you have worked very hard on your intellect and your (sorry about this part, but it's true) "ego", etc. And it's very very hard for you to admit that maybe you are not in control, or that everyone is on equal footing, etc. I fully "get it", etc, as I was just like you not all that long ago, etc. And I would love to not blame you for it, but at the same time "it is what it is, and things are what they are, and that's that", etc.

We are all just individual cogs in the machine, etc.

And it's time we started truly working together on things, etc.

But for that, we all have to be on the same page/level first, etc.

And that gets into what I said about "equal footing", etc.

Individual egos, or thinking ourselves above and/or higher or greater or so very much more different from everyone else has to go, etc.

Also us exalting ourselves or humans or humanity or man, or man/humankind, to the level of God/gods, has to go also, etc.

But it's kinda like having to go to the dentist though, lol.

God Bless.

@partinobodycular

About this above post, I apologize. I think I might have got you wrong here maybe, so I'm sorry if I did, ok.

Maybe a part of me is projecting maybe, and maybe I should review this for myself maybe?

Or it might be about other people I have maybe run into maybe?

Either way, wasn't right for me to "assume" this about you, ok, and I'm sorry, ok.

Anyway, Take Care Man.

God Bless.

 

[partinobodycular]

So your definition of consciousness doesn't have anything to do with "free will"?

Nope

But by your definition of consciousness, anything that can feel can be or become aware that it exists. Some say some plants might even be able to do this, etc.

As I said, I don't know why things are conscious, therefore I can't know what things are conscious. I can't even be sure that you're conscious.

 

[Neogaia777]

That's solipsism in a nutshell, try very, very hard not to assume ananything.

I think I'm beginning to understand now, and I'm sorry I jumped in on your reply to @Bradskii

I'll leave you be for a little while for now, ok.

Thanks for explaining.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

Nope

As I said, I don't know why things are conscious, therefore I can't know what things are conscious. I can't even be sure that you're conscious.

I think I'm beginning to understand.

Thanks, and thank you for explaining.

Take Care.

 

[partinobodycular]

About this above post, I apologize. I think I might have got you wrong here maybe, so I'm sorry if I did, ok.

Maybe a part of me is projecting maybe, and matbe I should review this for myself maybe?

Or it might be about other people I have maybe run into maybe?

Either way, wasn't right for me to "assume" this about you, ok, and I'm sorry, ok.

Anyway, Take Care Man.

God Bless.

There's one thing that you should know about me... I'm very hard to offend. I look at everyone as a puzzle that needs to be figured out. That's what makes life so great. Don't look at life's challenges as if they're there to test you, they're there to invigorate and inspire you. Mountains are there to be climbed, and challenges are there to be overcome, and the most rewarding challenges are the ones that must simply be endured.

 

[Neogaia777]

There's one thing that you should know about me... I'm very hard to offend. I look at everyone as a puzzle that needs to be figured out. That's what makes life so great. Don't look at life's challenges as if they're there to test you, they're there to invigorate and inspire you. Mountains are there to be climbed, and challenges are there to be overcome, and the most rewarding challenges are the ones that must simply be endured.

Thanks Sir/Man.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

There's one thing that you should know about me... I'm very hard to offend. I look at everyone as a puzzle that needs to be figured out. That's what makes life so great. Don't look at life's challenges as if they're there to test you, they're there to invigorate and inspire you. Mountains are there to be climbed, and challenges are there to be overcome, and the most rewarding challenges are the ones that must simply be endured.

I still think that I know that everything is deterministic though, but seeing how you explained to me that your a soliphist, and don't try to assume very much about a lot of things, etc, it helped me understand you a bit better, and I didn't want to any longer try to convince you of things, etc.

But I love what you just right now said though!

Thanks.

Take Care.

 

[Bradskii]

First, thanks for providing me with the time to think, unfortunately, strange things tend to happen when I think.

In this particular case a thought occurred to me... why are we conscious?

So that we are aware of our choices. And the outcomes. Which then form some of the antecedent conditions for later decisions.

 

[partinobodycular]

So that we are aware of our choices. And the outcomes. Which then form some of the antecedent conditions for later decisions.

But why would we need to be consciously aware of the process? If determinism is true then my mind is perfectly capable of analyzing all of the pertinent antecedent conditions without any help from little conscious me. Just do it and be done with it. But noooo... the mind has to create the illusion of a ghost in the machine. And it keeps this 'illusion' running every waking moment of my entire existence. That seems like a pretty energy intensive way of doing a deterministic thing. Considering its use of resources, that ghost in the machine must be pretty darn important.

But what exactly is this 'ghost in the machine' doing? Well, among other things, it's making choices. And it's doing this by taking the sum total of all of the antecedent conditions, weighing them, reconsidering them, re-evaluating them, and thereby... making new antecedent conditions. And it may do this again, and again, and again, until some little voice says... this is the option that I choose.

It's almost certainly a deterministic process, but a process so deeply entwined in what I am, and what I do , that I have indeed become the 'Ghost in the Machine'. I'm not simply the outcome of those antecedent conditions, I'm those antecedent conditions given a sense of right and wrong. How absolutely incredible is that... that antecedent conditions can have a sense of morality. It's on par with the universe becoming self-aware.

The thing is though, why am I conscious of this process in the first place? That couldn't have been evolution's intent. Evolution has no intent. Evolution was just selecting for something that would include the potential outcome as an antecedent condition. That's it. As far as the brain is concerned it's just one more antecedent condition among a billion other antecedent conditions. Consciousness is completely superfluous if actions are simply the byproduct of antecedent conditions.

Or is evolution doing superfluous now?

 

[Neogaia777]

My opinion is that no one or nothing here ever makes a true choice, but just only enjoys the illusion of such due to our ignorance of how the whole process, going all the way back to the beginning when the very first particles that were set in motion, works, etc.

And I also think this can be proven objectively by various "things", etc, but am also re-analyzing how important it really is for others to know that/this, or these things, etc.

It's all going to go/happen the way it was always going to/meant to happen/be anyway, etc.

And a lot of other people seem to think that knowledge of this is pretty depressing/unexciting/pointless/useless to them anyway, etc.

And some wish to remain or stay "open", and not assume anything, or a lot of things, etc.

And so I am also trying to be respectful of those things, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.