Baptists (and others)-- Wives submit to husbands? Wives and husbands equal partners?

[ValeriyK2022]

Here is a question that may get us back on topic: Can someone simultaneously walk in the Spirit AND abuse their wife?

It’s even more strange, can a wife combine this? Do salt and fresh water flow from the same source?

This is an excerpt from a Soviet film with a type of Soviet woman aspiring to household leadership.

The aforementioned professor Nina Krygina said that as a result of such a reversal of roles (master-subordinate), especially if it was accompanied by rudeness and humness on the part of women, many men ran away from their families or into the service of the Soviet regime (it was forbidden to serve God and the church at that time), or careerism, or into drunkenness.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

I think, though, this reinforces exactly why I'm limiting my engagement here. Even when I answer a direct question, somehow I'm in the wrong!

Your reasoning makes the Word of God erroneous.

If the Word of God is not wrong (and it isnt wrong), then you are wrong.

 

[tall73]

You asked; I answered; I gave some evidence for my answer. I'm at a loss as to why that is somehow bad on my part.

I think, though, this reinforces exactly why I'm limiting my engagement here. Even when I answer a direct question, somehow I'm in the wrong!

You came into a thread on discussion of a specific topic in Scripture, chose to engage in a way strategically to instead put focus on an off-topic aspect of secular research, etc. which was not the focus of the thread. And you have described this as your key concern, and essentially your agenda in the thread.

I tried for some time to get you to engage on various Scriptures, which you then only later disclosed you would intentionally not do.

After you disclosed your strategy I asked you to create a different thread for that topic if you wished. And instead you continued to address what you thought was important, despite the thread topic.

You have been, ironically, trying to control the direction of the thread, because you want to advocate for your view, despite the topic.

It is not really a wonder if you keep bringing the thread back to your topic, instead of the topic of the thread, why it results in me asking about that.

The topic is what the Scriptures say. You may start your own thread to discuss insights from secular research.

 

[Paidiske]

This means that it's not about the roles.

Women engage in abusive relationships without any prescription.

What we do know, though, is that domestic violence/abuse is overwhelmingly a gendered problem (committed by men against women). Yes, there are exceptions, but they are exceptions. And we know the attitudes that drive that abuse by men. And we can see the ways that religious ideas contribute to those attitudes.

Then it is very difficult to understand what you are offering.

It is very difficult to understand a partnership of equals? Is it really so hard to imagine a relationship not defined by hierarchy, power and control? What about friendship?

And instead you continued to address what you thought was important, despite the thread topic.

Only to the extent that people in the thread - mostly you - continued to engage with me, replying, asking questions, and so on. Every single post of mine in this thread has been in response to a direct question, or response to my response. If, at any point, you had simply stopped engaging, I would have had nothing further to say, but you did give me the impression, by continuing to interact, that the conversation was not finished.

And if you are unhappy about my "strategy," I suggest it is worth reflecting on the fact that I chose to limit my involvement in this thread specifically because I found this thread quite hostile. Rather understandably, when one gets responses like the one above yours.

 

[tall73]

What we do know, though, is that domestic violence/abuse is overwhelmingly a gendered problem (committed by men against women).

This post, in response to your article, showed data indicating that is not accurate. The data from Canada, and the CDC showed considerable abuse against men, by women.

Baptists (and others)-- Wives submit to husbands? Wives and husbands equal partners?

I. Am. Not. Blaming. You. Pointing out how particular ideas feed into abuse is not blaming anyone for that abuse. Yes, you are in fact blaming people when you say their teaching feeds into abuse. You can jump it through as many hoops as you want, and talk about paradigms or curves, or...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Paidiske]

This post, in response to your article, showed data indicating that is not accurate. The data from Canada, and the CDC showed considerable abuse against men, by women.

Even you acknowledged in your post that there are caveats and statistical questions in that data. And even if we take that data at face value, it's still a gendered problem; women suffer at higher rates, with more frequent incidents and more severe injuries.

ETA: In Australia, on average, one woman is killed every week by her partner or former partner. I can't even find any reports of a single man killed by his female partner this year. Don't tell me it's not a gendered problem.

 

[Joseph G]

Southern Baptists are the largest Baptist convention. The Southern Baptist Baptist Faith and Message 2000 states:

The husband and wife are of equal worth before God, since both are created in God’s image. The marriage relationship models the way God relates to His people. A husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. He has the God-given responsibility to provide for, to protect, and to lead his family. A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation.​

The American Baptist Churches USA policy statement On Women and Men as Partners in Church and Society takes a different view. The document is rather long. Here is a key phrase related to the topic:

We affirm that the practice of partnership between women and men can be most effectively taught in the home with the church's active help. This means that the father and the mother should model mutual love and respect for the gifts and qualities that each brings to their marriage and the home they have established.​

The purpose of this thread is to discuss what Scripture says on the topic. Should wives submit to husbands? Should wives and husbands be equal partners?

The topic is NOT about whether women should be preachers, priests, elders, overseers, bishops, pastors, deacons, should teach, etc. That may be a topic for another thread for Baptists at some point. But this is looking at the relation between wives and husbands.

I sincerely believe that if Christian husbands love their wives "with the love of Christ", that the wife will submit to the husband's role as leader out of a natural respect and a desire to honor him.

How does a husband earn that respect? By recognizing and encouraging her qualities as a Proverbs 31 woman.

Of particular value is this:

Proverbs 31:26 NIV

"She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue."

The husband would do well to especially note this: Everywhere in Scripture where "wisdom" is identified as being more highly desired than anything else, "wisdom" is always referred to as "she"!

If the husband reveres this quality in his wife, then they are guaranteed to be co-equal partners.

God bless!

 

[tall73]

Even you acknowledged in your post that there are caveats and statistical questions in that data. And even if we take that data at face value, it's still a gendered problem; women suffer at higher rates, with more frequent incidents and more severe injuries.

In Canada men were at higher rates, per the article.
And you ignored the data on female on female violence in lesbian couples.
And that most of the heterosexual men reported only female perpetrators.
Yes, more severe injuries occur for women. Injuries still occurred in men's cases as well.

And the caveats were certainly not to say that men were not being abused.

ETA: In Australia, on average, one woman is killed every week by her partner or former partner. I can't even find any reports of a single man killed by his female partner this year. Don't tell me it's not a gendered problem.

Didn't you just spend the majority of this thread saying you were against abuse, including forms that do not even involve violence?

I assumed when you posted your one-sided book review for evidence that you would not in fact agree with their statement that all domestic violence is caused by male entitlement and privilege. Perhaps I was wrong. So let's get you on the record.

Is ALL domestic violence (even that by females against their female partners, males against their male partners, and females against their male partners) the result of male entitlement and privilege as your article claimed?

 

[Paidiske]

And the caveats were certainly not to say that men were not being abused.

Nor am I saying that. But we know that men are not being abused by women, at anything like the rate at which women are being abused by men. That's what I mean when I say it's a gendered problem; it's one which is disproportionately freighted by gender.

I assumed when you posted your one-sided book review for evidence that you would not in fact agree with their statement that all domestic violence is caused by male entitlement and privilege.

I posted that only because it provided a statement that rates of abuse were lower in egalitarian households then complementarian ones. (Most data sources don't break it down that way, so it was hard to find, say, government stats on that).

However, I would read that as them discussing domestic violence against women by men, and saying that that is driven by male entitlement and privilege; and I would agree with that. That's exactly what all the research shows.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

What we do know, though, is that domestic violence/abuse is overwhelmingly a gendered problem (committed by men against women). Yes, there are exceptions, but they are exceptions. And we know the attitudes that drive that abuse by men. And we can see the ways that religious ideas contribute to those attitudes.

I don’t know about Australia, but in the USSR it was the other way around. The men became drunkards en masse. And one of the main reasons was the abuse by their wives in family relationships. Psychological more than physical.

 

[Paidiske]

I don’t know about Australia, but in the USSR it was the other way around. The men became drunkards en masse. And one of the main reasons was the abuse by their wives in family relationships. Psychological more than physical.

Source? I'd be interested to see the data.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Source? I'd be interested to see the data

I'm not some scientific analyst. I am describing the misfortune that everyone was talking about then: from Gorbachev to cinema. If you have the desire and time, then look for it yourself.

If I don't have time to look for analytics with numbers, it doesn't mean I'm deceiving you. You can read in a book that England has a damp climate, but you can also actually live there and say that you saw that the British often wore raincoats and carried umbrellas. This will also be true. Anyone who needs to find the level of humidity and precipitation will find it.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

It is very difficult to understand a partnership of equals? Is it really so hard to imagine a relationship not defined by hierarchy, power and control? What about friendship?

Maybe you are purely human and a good person. Maybe I would agree to have you as an employee or even my boss at work. But in family relationships, in my opinion, you are going against the Bible, against the New Testament.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Even you acknowledged in your post that there are caveats and statistical questions in that data. And even if we take that data at face value, it's still a gendered problem; women suffer at higher rates, with more frequent incidents and more severe injuries.

But this is no longer a Christian relationship. What does Christianity have to do with it? Does Christianity teach this?

We are talking about if both spouses agreed before the wedding to create a Christian family model. Everything else is off-top.

If one of the spouses is not a Christian, then the attitude should be like towards a pagan: if you agree to live together, then do not leave him, fulfill your family responsibilities, but do not trust him like a like-minded person. Something like this.

 

[Paidiske]

If you have the desire and time, then look for it yourself.

I have looked, and I'll just note that what I found did not match your claims at all. Academic sources cite high rates of male violence against women in the USSR.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

ETA: In Australia, on average, one woman is killed every week by her partner or former partner. I can't even find any reports of a single man killed by his female partner this year. Don't tell me it's not a gendered problem.

I heard that Australia is one of the leaders in debauchery in the world. Could this be a problem?

Does Christianity teach adultery? Or does Christianity teach to kill for adultery? Jesus Christ taught that only divorce, but not murder of the culprit.

 

[Paidiske]

But this is no longer a Christian relationship. What does Christianity have to do with it? Does Christianity teach this?

I'm not buying the "no true Scotsman" argument. There are many Christians who abuse.

What does Christianity have to do with this? As I tried to explain, when Christian communities promote ideas which underpin abuse - gender hierarchy, power and control, rigid roles - even though Christian leaders or doctrine might not go so far as to agree with abuse, they provide the ideological framework in which it is justified and normalised.

 

[Paidiske]

I heard that Australia is one of the leaders in debauchery in the world. Could this be a problem?

No, I don't think that's the problem. (I also don't think Australia is so debauched, but that really is off topic).

 

[ValeriyK2022]

I sincerely believe that if Christian husbands love their wives "with the love of Christ", that the wife will submit to the husband's role as leader out of a natural respect and a desire to honor him.

How does a husband earn that respect? By recognizing and encouraging her qualities as a Proverbs 31 woman.

Of particular value is this:

Proverbs 31:26 NIV

"She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue."

The husband would do well to especially note this: Everywhere in Scripture where "wisdom" is identified as being more highly desired than anything else, "wisdom" is always referred to as "she"!

If the husband reveres this quality in his wife, then they are guaranteed to be co-equal partners.

God bless!

Ideally, it should be as you write. But a wife can listen to fashionable psychologists and say: now I will love myself more. I don't care about your difficulties. I don't want to understand you! The wife began to look for her own in marriage and what then? She has free will. A man's good behavior with wise meekness is not a guarantee that his wife will change for the better. We must try for the sake of Christ, but be prepared for the fact that the wife does not want to change herself.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Nor am I saying that. But we know that men are not being abused by women, at anything like the rate at which women are being abused by men. That's what I mean when I say it's a gendered problem; it's one which is disproportionately freighted by gender.

If you are talking about believing families, then this is only possible if someone pretends to be a Christian: he goes to church meetings, but does not work at all on himself to fulfill the commandments of Christ. The problem here is the hypocrisy of one or both spouses, not gender roles.