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Baptists (and others)-- Wives submit to husbands? Wives and husbands equal partners?

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tall73

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I. Am. Not. Blaming. You. Pointing out how particular ideas feed into abuse is not blaming anyone for that abuse.

Yes, you are in fact blaming people when you say their teaching feeds into abuse. You can jump it through as many hoops as you want, and talk about paradigms or curves, or culture, or whatever else. At base level, you are saying people, when they talk about headship, feed into abuse.

And you ignore the fact that the same argument could be made regarding overseers. Or parents, etc.

Not all overseers are good.

Not all parents are good.

Not all civil authorities are good (by a long stretch).


You might not understand this, but your manner is sometimes very difficult to engage with. Every time I get a reply or come into this thread, it is with a heightened physiological fight/flight response, which I have to work through. The toll that takes is considerable. I do not find this discussion one I want to engage with beyond what is absolutely necessary (in my view).

Oh, I don't doubt that. But the feeling is mutual. Hence the week between bouts of replies lately.

But I am willing to see it through because I do want to look at the Scriptures. And I actually do want to know what the other side says about the Scriptures. And one of the key reasons this has been a rather difficult conversation is that you have been using strategy to avoid that discussion, while claiming you have all the answers.


I am considering whether I want to try to put together a systematic presentation of an egalitarian view and post it somewhere else. I have not had time to do that, and I am not sure whether I wish to do that, or whether I feel it's necessary, when it's not as if such presentations are not readily at the fingertips of anyone who can use google.

I have read some of the info on Google, and other places. But what is much harder to find is an egalitarian who will put their full views up for discussion and debate, to test whether they line up. I have been trying to do that with my view. And I would like someone to do so with the other view.

There are many people publishing, and sometimes they respond to each other. But the reality is that moves at a snails pace, and people can just choose not to respond to various elements.

In an actual discussion where both are wanting to get into the details, you don't have those limitations.

I find that on some topics here. I have engaged in a hundred typed pages of intense, detailed debate on a Scripture topic in one night, where I was in a completely different camp than the other poster, and it was a wonderful experience, because the poster was bringing challenging Scriptural arguments, and I was likewise trying to do the same. That was despite the fact that it too was a contentious issue. But we both were trying to figure out what it said.

I have not found that on this topic. I don't expect it to be a pleasant topic either way, because all sides have strong emotions on the subject. But it is still important. And because I have changed my mind on a number of important topics relating to Scripture, I do try to discuss topics where there is a chance I am wrong.

But you clearly are not wanting to discuss in that way, but are strategically avoiding it. And instead you are highlighting points you feel are important regarding abuse.

We all admit there is abuse. But if you won't show your view from Scripture, or more to the point, if I cannot see that me view is wrong regarding the Scriptures, I cannot change my view. I do not believe that headship is abuse. Jesus is our Head. And if He is living in us, it won't be abusive to our spouse.

But since you are the main one participating, and you are not wanting that conversation, we can end the discussion.
 
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tall73

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Well, yes. If we talk about authority, and yielding, and put leaders on a pedestal, and encourage hierarchy and clericalism, and disempower congregation members, rather than always putting the focus on the limits of these things, and how leaders are not there to control, and how we encourage people to think for themselves, to be free to explore ideas and disagree, and so on, yes. We do foster abuse.

It does indeed happen in the church too.

So then you should not teach that there are overseers, correct?
 
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tall73

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I disagree. For example, a system in which he doesn't get automatic decision making rights, limits his ability to abuse.

And who enforces that? No evil person is going to follow your reasoned system! Either you are walking in the Spirit or you are not.

Are you under the impression egalitarians don't abuse?
 
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tall73

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Again, that's really not what I'm saying.
No, it really is. You have to decide. Are you saying that headship teaching by its nature leads to abuse or not? If so, then however it gets there that IS what you are saying.

So stop trying to soften it. There is no softening it, You are saying we contribute to abuse, even when we say people should not abuse a hundred times, because we discuss headship. Don't run from your own argument. It has been your primary contribution. Defend it or drop it., but softening it won't resolve the issue.

There is no kind, gentle, non-direct, non-personal way to say that someone is contributing to abuse.

Either headship is promoting abuse, or it is not.

But of course, it cannot be. Because Jesus is Head.

And the same arguments you use against husbands apply to overseers. But you don't get rid of overseers.
 
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tall73

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Tall73 said:
By the same argument you have put forward here I could say that any spiritual leadership is abuse. After all, ministers have a long history of abuse. We have all seen abusive ministers.​
And sure, some may only abuse a little, but by talking about overseers, and yielding, and authority, and being called by God and such they encourage the abusive ones. They are encouraged to abuse by any talk of authority for an overseer. Think of overseers as a continuum. You have the really careful ones, who nonetheless admit they have made mistakes and try to fix them. And then you have the ones who take their arguments and use them to be abusive.​
The only safe solution is to get rid of overseers. Then we won't have the opportunity for abuse. To support the notion of an overseer is to promote abuse.​

Well, yes. If we talk about authority, and yielding, and put leaders on a pedestal, and encourage hierarchy and clericalism, and disempower congregation members, rather than always putting the focus on the limits of these things, and how leaders are not there to control, and how we encourage people to think for themselves, to be free to explore ideas and disagree, and so on, yes. We do foster abuse.

So we should never talk about the texts that speak of double honor, or yielding to overseers, or overseers watching over souls, or the one who desires to be an overseer desires a good thing, is that correct?

We should ONLY talk about the other?

The Scriptures have both. We need both. There is no sense in talking at all about the warnings, if you don't talk about the authority to start with.

There is no need to warn about improper use of non-authority.
 
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Paidiske

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Yes, you are in fact blaming people when you say their teaching feeds into abuse.
No, I'm not.

We - the church - need to be able to look at the ugly fruit in our midst, to see what has grown that fruit, and seek to remove it. That's not a personal thing. It's not a matter of blaming anyone; all of us have inherited deeply compromised thinking and practices.

The only thing I would think is blameworthy, is denying the existence of that fruit, or refusing to try to deal with the problem.
But I am willing to see it through because I do want to look at the Scriptures. And I actually do want to know what the other side says about the Scriptures.
If that is really true, then I suggest starting with a different thread, with an altogether different approach. You could, for example, start a thread in the Egalitarian section posing a range of questions and respectfully seeking answers. Because I'm not interested in being attacked for sharing my understanding.
So then you should not teach that there are overseers, correct?
No more than I should teach that there is no marriage.
And who enforces that? No evil person is going to follow your reasoned system!
Granted. But at least we are not then putting forward a system which tells him he has the right to abuse by exercising controlling decision-making.
Are you under the impression egalitarians don't abuse?
No, but I am under the impression that the rates of abuse are lower in egalitarian marriages. Eg: see here. "Where communities believe that men are privileged and should be in charge and women submissive, women in much higher percentages are abused."

I saw a rather useful analogy here; comparing complementarian theology to a butter knife. It's not designed to be a weapon. But it can be used as one, and we find that it is often used as one.

(Actually, that whole piece was good. This quote in particular stands out: "If complementarians are confident that it is not an abusive doctrine in itself, they should by now be willing to recognise that the doctrine has been abused, and so the question changes to: what can be done to ensure it is not co-opted for abusive purposes? The beginning of the answer to all these questions must acknowledge the fact that, whatever we thought was working here, is not. Whatever the approach was before, it now needs revision. A simple retreat to proper exposition and theological convictions will not be enough to protect victims." (Emphasis original).

Also this: "“we need to focus on unequal social relations and how they are produced, maintained, policed, and punished if transgressed. If you don’t know that, then you don’t know how to interrupt them and eventually change them.”

What role do our theologies of marriage play in producing, maintaining, policing, and punishing the transgression of, unequal social relations? )
Are you saying that headship teaching by its nature leads to abuse or not?
Only to the extent that it establishes dynamics of hierarchy, power, control and rigid gender roles.
So we should never talk about the texts that speak of double honor, or yielding to overseers, or overseers watching over souls, or the one who desires to be an overseer desires a good thing, is that correct?
If I were to talk about those texts, I would be very careful to do so in a way that takes note of, and tries to limit, the danger of them.

For example, I can't recall right now that I have ever actually preached on any of those things, but I do recall preaching about preaching itself; what is the function of the sermon? And I have made the point that it is not the preacher standing "six feet above contradiction," telling the congregation what to do, or what to believe; but it is the presenting of a perspective, a point of view, on the text under consideration; and that the invitation to the congregation is to consider and reflect on that perspective, but that they are free to disagree with it, and that I welcome discussion of any point of disagreement. I'd rather be disagreed with in a considered way, than passively gone along with because someone didn't really engage with the topic.

So deliberately pointing out that the sermon is not an exercise in control, and giving people explicit permission to not be controlled by it.

That's the same sort of approach I'd take to any discussion of authority or yielding or the like in relation to ministry.
 
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ValeriyK2022

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But not every man is equally good. And if a man is given the power to make any decision with which his wife disagrees, simply by claiming that it's a matter in which God's will is at stake, and his wife is told that it's God's will that in such situations she must submit...

That is not a safe situation. And I am not seeing you build in any limits or safeguards around that.
In controversial issues there must be arbiters. What does the Scripture say? If there are any authoritative believers, then ask them to intervene. If not, then tell the church, that is, the elder, who will be equally authoritative for both.
 
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ValeriyK2022

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But the other guy looks to people like you - and people just a bit further on the spectrum than you, but still only "lightly" abusive - and he says, (perhaps subconsciously), See, these guys agree with me that my wife should submit; that I should be the head of the household; that there is real God ordained hierarchy and authority here; and so on.

Your position, or those like it, especially when expressed in an un-nuanced or careless way, provides justification for his underlying beliefs about hierarchy, power, control, gender roles. He can turn around and say, "See, the Bible says! See, the church has said for 2,000 years!" And so on.
Can you imagine Christ beating one of the apostles for unprepared breakfast?
 
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ValeriyK2022

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Yes, I have seen it too, both in public settings, apart from ministry, and in ministering to couples, etc. where the husband was controlling, irrationally jealous, etc. abusive, etc.
But can't a wife do all this? Why does someone think that only husbands can behave this way, but not wives?
 
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ValeriyK2022

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There is no system that limits its ability to abuse. He is either convinced of superiority or he is not. And he (or even she, but this is less common) can abuse in any way.



The fact of violence depends to a greater extent on whether a person walks in the Spirit, and not on whether he commits the works of the flesh.
In the pagan world, where there was no Christ, acts of violence occurred much more often. And only Christianity raised women to the role of equal members of society, but with certain role reservations.
 
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ValeriyK2022

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Paidiske says she is against control. But in essence she proposes to replace one control with another. In such family, she offers only 2 relationships: 1) either the husband agrees that the wife is the main one in the family (this was the case in many families in the USSR, but this is against the will of God) and in controversial cases husband should give in; 2) or they will both give control to some third party (to understand what is going on with them, each of them needs to be interrogated regularly, or even better, install microphones and cameras), and this third party will study the control over them by both. In general, ship cannot exist without the main thing. If captains assistant and sailors approach the captain and periodically, without consulting with him, turn the steering wheel in the direction they think, the ship may has not sailed anywhere at all, but will staye at sea.

About 7 years ago I watched the Russian feature film "Son". There was such a plot. A mixed family (father is Swedish, mother is Russian) lives in a Swedish city. They have a small child, about 5 years old. When he was naughty, he was punished a little, but overall he was happy. They had a conflict with one woman. This woman wrote a denunciation that they they use force on the child. The social service immediately “helped” the child: they took him away from the family. His parents tried unsuccessfully to pick him up. Social service educators subtly abused and manipulated the child, but they were cunning , and no one could prove their crime. The court was on the side of the social service. The child became depressed, but no one cared. He was not given to his parents. Finally, the judge decided to give the child to another family. The mother takes a desperate step: she steals the child from the country and runs away with him to Russia. I don’t want to say by this that things are better with such services in Russia. I just want to say that control of representatives of the state is always worse than control of loved ones.
 
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Reasonably Sane

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I see wives and husbands as "equal" as sort of analogous to an engine and transmission being equal. Both are needed to get power to the tires, but both have utterly different roles and were designed by their creator to perform those roles. When an engine tries to be a transmission or the transmission tries to be an engine, or either one thinks it doesn't need the other, things go to hell in a handbasket pretty fast.
 
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Reasonably Sane

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In the pagan world, where there was no Christ, acts of violence occurred much more often. And only Christianity raised women to the role of equal members of society, but with certain role reservations.
Yup. For starters, if Christianity was a man-made fabrication, it wouldn't have been women who would have noticed the missing body and reported it.
 
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Paidiske

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But can't a wife do all this? Why does someone think that only husbands can behave this way, but not wives?
It's not that a wife can't do it. If we had any theology that told a wife she had a God-given right to do it, I'd critique that just as harshly. But we don't.
Paidiske says she is against control. But in essence she proposes to replace one control with another. In such family, she offers only 2 relationships: 1) either the husband agrees that the wife is the main one in the family (this was the case in many families in the USSR, but this is against the will of God) and in controversial cases husband should give in; 2) or they will both give control to some third party (to understand what is going on with them, each of them needs to be interrogated regularly, or even better, install microphones and cameras), and this third party will study the control over them by both.
No, neither of those options are what I am suggesting.
In general, ship cannot exist without the main thing. If captains assistant and sailors approach the captain and periodically, without consulting with him, turn the steering wheel in the direction they think, the ship may has not sailed anywhere at all, but will staye at sea.
A marriage is not a ship. Military or naval analogies for the household (as a justification for hierarchy) don't really work. In practice, husband and wife can share leadership without issue.
I just want to say that control of representatives of the state is always worse than control of loved ones.
No, sometimes it's really not.
 
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tall73

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No, but I am under the impression that the rates of abuse are lower in egalitarian marriages. Eg: see here. "Where communities believe that men are privileged and should be in charge and women submissive, women in much higher percentages are abused."


You had every opportunity to make your own thread related to this material. This is for discussion of Scripture. But since you are now posting articles on secular academics I will address part of your article:

In other words, where communities believe that men are privileged and should be in charge and women submissive, women in much higher percentages are abused.​
But it’s not simply one man and one woman. There is a culture that contributes, an ideology, a worldview, a theology.​

(The article starts quoting the book)Historically, men’s abuse of and violence towards women have been explained primarily in individualistic terms. Such explanations find the cause in the psychology, mental health, or life experiences of perpetrators. While these personal factors may certainly play a part and should not be ignored, they are inadequate on their own. The scholarly consensus today is that behind all domestic abuse and violence lies a belief in male privilege and entitlement, and conversely, a low estimation of women, that usually reflects the values and ideas of the community in which people find themselves.​
No, not all domestic abuse and violence is simply the result of male privilege. Nor is all abuse committed by men.


Family violence in Canada: A statistical profile, 2014

In 2014, slightly more men (4.2%) than women (3.5%) reported being victims of spousal violence during the preceding 5 years. This translated into about 342,000 women and 418,000 men across the provinces. Similar declines in spousal violence were recorded for both sexes since 2004. According to the 2014 GSS, the most commonly-reported type of spousal violence experienced was being pushed, grabbed, shoved or slapped (35%). A quarter of victims (25%) reported having been sexually assaulted, beaten, choked,​
or threatened with a gun or a knife. A similar proportion (24%) reported having been kicked, bit, hit, or hit with something. As in previous years, women reported the most severe types of spousal violence more often than men. Among victims of spousal sexual assault, over half (59%) reported non-consensual sexual activity that came as a result of being manipulated, drugged, or otherwise coerced, sometimes in combination with sexual assault through physical force. Just under one-third (31%) of spousal violence victims in the provinces reported sustaining physical injuries as a result of the violence. Women were proportionally more likely than men to have reported physical injuries, with 4 out of 10 (40%) female victims reporting injuries compared to just under a quarter (24%) of male victims.​
and​
A history of family violence in the childhood home was notable among those who reported being the victim of spousal violence as adults. Over one in five (21%) spousal violence victims reported having witnessed abuse committed by a parent, step-parent or guardian as a child. This proportion is significantly higher than the 11% of respondents in spousal relationships free of violence who had witnessed violence as children​
and​
According to the 2014 GSS, many Canadians across the provinces reported having been emotionally or financially abused by a current or former spouse or common-law partner at some point during their lifetime. In total, 14% of those with a current or former spouse or partner reported this kind of abuse. Men were slightly more likely than women to report emotional or financial abuse (15% versus 13%).​

Now certainly there are some caveats, with homosexual men being included in the data, and with the understanding that some abuse is reciprocal, some may be defensive, or a delayed defebsive respoonse when out of the compromising position, etc. But it still shows that men are abused as well, though women may have higher incident frequency, and more severe injuries.

The CDC also reported men being abused:


Any contact sexual violence, physical violence, and/or stalking was found to be at 44.2% for men and 47.3 for women.

Abuse even happens when no men are involved in the domestic arrangement.

For instance, in the CDC National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010 findings on victimization by sexual orientation, which broke things down further,


It was found that 43.8 percent of lesbian women reported violence, rape or stalking by an intimate partner. More than two-thirds of lesbian women (67.4%) identified only female perpetrators. The remaining percentage may have had either only male, or a combination, since this was looking at lifetime incidence.

The lifetime prevalence of rape, physical violence, and/or stalking
by an intimate partner for men back in 2010 showed 29% of heterosexual men reporting such, with 99.5 percent being female only perpetrators.

There have also been studies showing reluctance on the part of the both genders to report abuse. So it is bound to be higher on all counts.

The article certainly overstates its case. And of course, you did not quote this portion:

It’s not like egalitarianism wipes away abuse, however, for in the Nordic countries, where egalitarianism is the ideology, there is a higher than – USA, Australia, other European countries –abuse rate. Research suggests this is about the threat of male loss of power and retaliation.​

The article argues that the cultural messages drive abuse, but then are forced to concede that where the egalitarian message is strongest, you have more abuse reported. Now, I am willing to grant that some argue that more people are willing to report in those countries. Maybe so. But at best that might result in break-even numbers. And the example certainly doesn't show a good outcome in this test case for egalitarian cultural messaging.

They theorize this involves the threat of loss of power. They cite research, but don't link to it. So I am not sure what to think on that. But it also points out that dynamics vary region to region, for distinct reasons.

And, at least going on the information in the article, this does not look specifically at the questions you are pointing out regarding religious notions. Male superiority also is discussed in non-religious contexts.

This study, for instance


looked at Global Family and Gender Survey data from eleven countries (United States, Australia, France, Ireland, United Kingdom, Canada, Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Mexico, and Peru).

They looked at rates of intimate partner violence (IPV) and infidelity among couples with different levels of religious commitment, as well as whether the belief that the man is the head of the household increased couples’ risk of IPV or infidelity.

They found:

Couples with nominal or unequal religiosity (less/mixed religious couples) had higher rates of infidelity than either highly religious couples or couples in which neither partner exhibited much religiosity (shared secular couples). Infidelity was generally similar between highly religious couples and shared secular couples, but in the US women in highly religious couples did cheat less. We found no differences in IPV—measured by both women's reports of victimization and men's reports of perpetration—according to couple religiosity. Further, the belief that the man is the head of the household did not influence couples’ risk of either IPV or infidelity across the entire sample. In Latin America, however, patriarchal men in shared secular couples perpetrated IPV significantly more often than their egalitarian or more religious counterparts. (emphasis supplied)​

In most categories the differences were not statistically significant, but they were in one region in regards to those who held a secular view of headship.

In the footnotes of a related write up by some of the study authors they did note something regarding the data from Australia. They did not have as much data from there, but what they did have showed a trend in line with your observations in your area:

The country-level reports show that Australian men in highly religious couples are more likely to be perpetrators of IPV than those in shared-secular couples, suggesting the ABC stories were especially relevant for the Australian context.​

They also noted that in older data in North America there were more specific trends showing religiosity mattered. The more recent research shows that lessening.

Research using nationally-representative samples of U.S. adults generally finds that—within married couples—more​
religious men are less likely to be perpetrators of IPV, and religious women are marginally less likely to be victims of IPV.14 Globally, higher religiosity is associated with being less likely to believe that wife beating is acceptable.15 Religiosity, or​
religious commitment, seems to be the determining factor, not religious tradition, and it seems that nominal religiosity may​
present the most risk, with both the nonreligious and the religiously devout being less likely to perpetrate IPV than are​
those who attend religious services infrequently. For example, sociologist W. Bradford Wilcox has noted that conservative​
Protestant men in the U.S. who are active in a religious community are among the least likely to physically hurt their​
spouses, while conservative Protestant men who are not active in a religious community are the most likely to be abusive.16​
Sociologists Christopher Ellison, John Bartkowski, and Kristin Anderson similarly found that perpetration of IPV was​
lower only among men who attended religious services weekly or more.17 Evidence from Canada suggests a similar pattern,​
with those who are infrequent attenders of religious services being the most likely to be abusive.18​

This study, which is admittedly a bit limited in some of its design, showed that a factor that correlated with abuse among religious college students was the lower biblical knowledge among those who claimed to be religious.


Participants completed a measure of religious overclaiming, reported on their perpetration of IPV, and reported their religiosity. Across both studies, we found that higher religious overclaiming was associated with greater perpetration of IPV.​

The data is mixed, but there are some suggestions that those who are most religious and actually carry that out, are less likely to abuse than those who claim religion, but don't act on it.

Which would also explain why the pastor repeating a number of times that the text doesn't excuse abuse and micro-managing would not get through--since the nominally religious are not there to hear it, or actively involved in studying the text.


 
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Paidiske

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You had every opportunity to make your own thread related to this material. This is for discussion of Scripture.
You asked the question; it seems a bit unreasonable to then be unhappy if I answer it.
And, at least going on the information in the article, this does not look specifically at the questions you are pointing out regarding religious notions. Male superiority also is discussed in non-religious contexts.
Certainly; this is not a uniquely religious problem; our religious traditions are enmeshed in a broader patriarchal social landscape.

Which is why religiosity is not the key factor; it's the underlying attitudes around hierarchy, power, control, rigid roles, etc, whether they are built on religious or secular foundations. But religious communities have a particular role to play in critiquing the contribution of religious ideologies to the problem.
 
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tall73

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You asked the question; it seems a bit unreasonable to then be unhappy if I answer it.
In the context of noting that wicked men will not be controlled by such a system I asked if you were under the impression egalitarians do not abuse.

a. the question was in response to your extra-biblical framework of secular research which you have brought into the thread repeatedly instead of making a thread for that purpose.

b. the question did not require you to post a one-sided editorial book review piece that made unsubstantiated claims about all domestic abuse being due to male privilege and entitlement,

c. The article you posted indicated that the Nordic region countries which have more egalitarian cultures have higher reported abuse.

So now you have continued to take the topic away from Scripture, and, strangely, have posted evidence against your position.


Certainly; this is not a uniquely religious problem; our religious traditions are enmeshed in a broader patriarchal social landscape.

I am not going to stop going through Ephesians 5 (as part of studying whole books of the Bible) in America because secular couples in South America abuse more. My communications are not reaching them, or influencing them in any way.

Now if the small sample in Australia, which support your accounts, show a problem with misguided distortions of religious headship in Australia, by all means, correct those. And yes, we have some here who think the same. And we DO speak to correct those, both from the pulpit, in Bible studies, and in one-on-one conversations. Because abusing Christians harm people, and also harm the name of Christ.

But I am not under the impression that egalitarian secular messaging will fix the problem. I would recommend correcting them by encouraging them to actually follow who Jesus is, and live by the Spirit, which is the commission we have been given as a church, rather than try to change various cultures to follow a secular cultural egalitarianism that has not resulted in the reduction of abuse in the Nordic countries.

I posted research that showed, with a larger US sample, there was not a statistical difference in the various categories in America. That is sad enough in itself, in that Christians should abuse less.

The previous date from 25 years or so ago that showed more religiosity among married Christians in America counter-acted abuse. And that was in a time that had arguably less egalitarian messaging in America, but higher overall religious commitment. I am not convinced the egalitarian messaging is the solution.

In the more recent study it would not have worked for purposes of comparison, but I would have liked to see the data on only the married couples with high religiosity, rather than including co-habiting couples, as I would say in the context of Christian faith co-habiting is itself a sign of not following Christian teaching (technically the religiosity component also includes non-Christian religions as well, which have been increasing relative to Christianity in some cases).

Which is why religiosity is not the key factor;

There are many factors, not one key factor. And despite arguing a one-sided view your article noted that cultural egalitarianism hadn't corrected abuse in the Nordic countries.


it's the underlying attitudes around hierarchy, power, control, rigid roles, etc, whether they are built on religious or secular foundations. But religious communities have a particular role to play in critiquing the contribution of religious ideologies to the problem.
I am sure you may have some explanatoin for how male headship explains lesbian and gay domestic abuse, but I really don't think me changing my Bible study approach is going to fix that problem.

Speaking to the people in my church about following Christ, and living in the Spirit which completey rules out rape, beating, coveteosness and jealousy, wrath, etc. is something I am doing.

If I am gonig to spend efforts to change societal messaging, it will be in that direction.
 
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tall73

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You asked the question
Here is a question that may get us back on topic: Can someone simultaneously walk in the Spirit AND abuse their wife?
Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.​
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.​
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. (NKJV)​
 
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Paidiske

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I asked if you were under the impression egalitarians do not abuse.
You asked; I answered; I gave some evidence for my answer. I'm at a loss as to why that is somehow bad on my part.

I think, though, this reinforces exactly why I'm limiting my engagement here. Even when I answer a direct question, somehow I'm in the wrong!
 
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ValeriyK2022

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It's not that a wife can't do it. If we had any theology that told a wife she had a God-given right to do it, I'd critique that just as harshly. But we don't.
This means that it's not about the roles.

Women engage in abusive relationships without any prescription.

If men also engage in abuse, then the role assigned to them as the head of the family isnt reason of this. A person simply makes a choice to abuse relationships in any role.
No, neither of those options are what I am suggesting.
Then it is very difficult to understand what you are offering.
 
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