Exodus evidence (part 2 updated)

[AV1611VET]

They weren't in control of their own destiny while they were enslaved, but they could have still been in control of their own identity, if they considered it important enough, and that's all I am really saying.

It's one of the hardest things to do as an imprisoned or incarcerated or enslaved people/person, but it is possible to do, etc.

And you keep mentioning "archeological evidence", but so far I haven't seen anything that absolutely disproves the Exodus, etc.

But I do keep reading, and following certain threads like this one, and waiting.

And it doesn't help your case any to almost any believer when your evidence completely leaves out the possibility altogether of any kind of God that is able to do anything quote/unquote "super or other natural" when talking about the quote/unquote "evidence" when presenting or trying to make your case, etc.

Just in case you want to leave those ones out for future reference, etc.

Because they are not going to get or go anywhere with someone like me, etc.

Most believers believe things like God providing them with manna from the sky, and with water, and pillar of cloud by day, and fire by or at night, shoes and clothing and other supplies never wearing out/running out, or having to be replaced, and things like that, etc.

So if you are talking about evidence, or lack of evidence, that might or might not be present, or that might be negated because of things like that, then trying to refute that or those because you just leave all of that out is probably not going to get you anywhere with almost any believer. Just for future reference, etc.

God Bless.

Winning post, if ever I saw one!

Good job!

 

[AV1611VET]

It is not correct to say there is only one flood story. There is only one flood story in the Bible. There is another flood story in the Sumerian legend of Gilgamesh, there is yet another flood story in various other texts. No, no one is claiming that they are the same flood. All they are saying is that there was a flood.

If Mesopotamia was flooded in 2348 BC and recorded as global, then why didn't they record the next flood the next time it happened?

You'd think there would be thousands of "global flood" stories all over everywhere; year after year.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Can God flood the entire moon with floodwaters 20 miles deep tomorrow; then the day after tomorrow have the moon back to its original condition with absolutely zero evidence that anything at all happened?

If God could do such a thing, it's quite reasonable to say that for anyone but God it never happened, and that all claims about such events would necessarily be fictitious. I hope you can see what a nonsensical idea it is?

 

[AV1611VET]

If God could do such a thing, it's quite reasonable to say that for anyone but God it never happened, and that all claims about such events would necessarily be fictitious. I hope you can see what a nonsensical idea it is?

And therein lies the disconnect between science and theology.

I'm sure even you guys will admit that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[Ace777]

It isn't a flood.

Then why do we find dinosaur remains in flood deposits.
Genesis 7:11 all the fountains of the great deep burst forth
This sounds a lot more like Pangea then Noah's flood.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Then why do we find dinosaur remains in flood deposits.

What flood deposits with dino bones. Provide some references to your claim. There are dino fossils in many kinds of deposited rock.

 

[Astrid]

If God could do such a thing, it's quite reasonable to say that for anyone but God it never happened, and that all claims about such events would necessarily be fictitious. I hope you can see what a nonsensical idea it is?

I see the old " absence of evidence " canard
simmering in the duck soup pot.


It would be a good one to trot out when trying
to avoid arrest for false 911 call about a herd of giant
squid in the house.

Or a trip to the looney bin.

It won't work, but for squids and floods, what else is there?

 

[Astrid]

What flood deposits with dino bones. Provide some references to your claim. There are dino fossils in many kinds of deposited rock.

This is like saying 2nd grade math cant show calculus is
wrong for using sqiggles instead of just numbers

 

[Ace777]

Provide some references to your claim.

According to the Institute for Creation Research, a global flood may have buried dinosaurs in Upper Cretaceous strata in western North America. The flood's tsunami-like waves may have overwhelmed and buried dinosaurs from the Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous periods. Some say that the flood may explain why dinosaurs continued to thrive until the end of the Cretaceous period.

For example, taphonomist Arthur Chadwick and his team have excavated dinosaur fossils at Hanson's Ranch in Wyoming, including the remains of between 10,000 and 25,000 dinosaurs. Some say that the fossil record, including dinosaur footprints, death poses, and eggs, also supports the idea of a global flood. However, others have discovered dinosaur egg clutches and soft tissue in dinosaur bones that are over 100 million years old, which they say were not formed during a flood.

 

[Hans Blaster]

According to the Institute for Creation Research, a global flood may have buried dinosaurs in Upper Cretaceous strata in western North America. The flood's tsunami-like waves may have overwhelmed and buried dinosaurs from the Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous periods. Some say that the flood may explain why dinosaurs continued to thrive until the end of the Cretaceous period.

ICR is not a scientific reference.

For example, taphonomist Arthur Chadwick and his team have excavated dinosaur fossils at Hanson's Ranch in Wyoming, including the remains of between 10,000 and 25,000 dinosaurs. Some say that the fossil record, including dinosaur footprints, death poses, and eggs, also supports the idea of a global flood. However, others have discovered dinosaur egg clutches and soft tissue in dinosaur bones that are over 100 million years old, which they say were not formed during a flood.

Again, this doesn't provide any evidence. This is clearly about a specific site. Where is the analysis that shows this was in *any* flood. (It also says ranch, which is a hard thing to do on a mountain.)

 

[Ace777]

ICR is not a scientific reference.

Again, this doesn't provide any evidence. This is clearly about a specific site. Where is the analysis that shows this was in *any* flood. (It also says ranch, which is a hard thing to do on a mountain.)

Actually I do not care what you want or think or believe. IT really just does not matter to me.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Actually I do not care what you want or think or believe. IT really just does not matter to me.

Do you want to discuss mountain top flood deposits or not?

 

[AV1611VET]

I see the old " absence of evidence " canard simmering in the duck soup pot.

Good.

You hungry?

Try a bite.

You might like it.

It would be a good one to trot out when trying to avoid arrest for false 911 call about a herd of giant squid in the house.

Okay.

Or a trip to the looney bin.

Interesting you mention that.

Some time ago, a well-known and sought-after evangelist, who was born with a mental condition, hurt his thumb working on a project.

He went to the emergency room, and the way he was acting piqued the interesting of the staff.

They called in another doctor, and he asked the evangelist a few questions, along the order of:

1. Do you look forward to dying?
2. Do you feel you're being watched, even when you're alone?
3. Do you feel there's an entity from another plane of existence out to get you?
4. Do you often talk to someone in your mind? if so, is he your friend?

Based on his answers, he was committed to the psychiatric ward for "further testing."

It took his wife a week, but she finally got a Christian psychiatrist to override the doctor's orders and get him out.

Your remark is indicative of what we go through.

It won't work, but for squids and floods, what else is there?

An empty tomb.

And I mean EMPTY.

No evidence.

Yet it's our foundational belief that it happened.

And for those who don't ... well ... they're one heartbeat away from Hell.

 

[AV1611VET]

This is like saying 2nd grade math cant show calculus is wrong for using sqiggles instead of just numbers.

Any exceptions to basic arithmetic you know of?

7/7 = 1

20%/20% = 1

Pi/Pi = 1

Pluto/Pluto = 1

0/0 = ?

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you want to discuss mountain top flood deposits or not?

Sure.

Dinosaur bones are found on mountain tops.

How'd they get there?

If you say it was by uplift of the sea floor, two questions?

1. How'd the dinosaurs get into the ocean in the first place?
2. Are you taking wind erosion into account, after these peaks showed up?

 

[Ace777]

Do you want to discuss mountain top flood deposits or not?

100 million years ago the entire state of Colorado and much of middle North America was submerged under the Western Interior seaway. This flooding left behind large amounts of sedimentary deposits, like the Pierre Shale and Fox Hills Formation (sandstone).

The rocky mountain must not be so high if the entire state was under water.

 

[dlamberth]

100 million years ago the entire state of Colorado and much of middle North America was submerged under the Western Interior seaway. This flooding left behind large amounts of sedimentary deposits, like the Pierre Shale and Fox Hills Formation (sandstone).

The rocky mountain must not be so high if the entire state was under water.

View attachment 351425

May I suggest using Google for the correct time frames and geology formation of Pierre Shale and Fox Hills Formation as well as anything geology related before posting.

Here's a link with good info to fill in your missing gaps.
https://www.usgs.gov/geology-and-ecology-of-national-parks/geology-rocky-mountain-national-park

 

[rvs]

Another problem with the Exodus if the Hebrews were in Egypt for 430 years before escaping and having been subjected to enslavement and cultural destruction how did their Semitic language survive?
One would have expected the escaping Israelites to be Egyptian speaking with a smattering of original words given history shows us the rapid loss of original language over succeeding generations of slaves.

According to the archaeology the Egyptians controlled Canaan for nearly five centuries but were pragmatic rulers allowing the Canaanites a certain degree of autonomy along with religious and cultural freedoms on condition they paid tribute to the pharaohs.
The results were the preservation of the Semitic language and Canaanite customs with some Egyptian words creeping into the language which is the reverse of what would have happened if Exodus was a historical account.

Here are 10 examples.
Note the Egyptian words are phonetic interpretations of the Egyptian hieroglyphs.

• סַרְסָר (sarsar) - This term appears in Ugaritic texts and likely means "hailstorm" or "storm." It is derived from the Egyptian word "sr-sr".
• בֶּצֶם (betsem) - Found in Ugaritic texts, this word means "linen" or "cloth." It is borrowed from the Egyptian word "btm".
• אָפִיר (afir) - This term, found in Ugaritic and Hebrew, refers to "dust" or "fine dust." It is derived from the Egyptian word "apir".
• מֶצֶז (meṣez) - This word appears in Ugaritic and possibly Hebrew, meaning "mud" or "mortar." It is borrowed from the Egyptian word "msṣ" often referring to the mixture used in construction.
• שֶׁשׁ (shesh) - This word appears in Ugaritic and Hebrew, meaning "fine linen" or "fine cloth." It is borrowed from the Egyptian word "šš".
• אֹפֶל (ophel) - Found in Ugaritic and Hebrew, this word means "darkness" or "gloom." It is derived from the Egyptian word "iʿp,".
• מָרָא (mara) - This term appears in Ugaritic and Hebrew, meaning "bitterness" or "bitter thing." It is borrowed from the Egyptian word "mr".
• אַרְגָּז (argaz) - Found in Ugaritic, this word means "treasure" or "storehouse." It is derived from the Egyptian word "rgz" which means to collect or gather.
• פָּטוֹם (patom) - This term appears in Ugaritic, meaning "container" or "jar." It is borrowed from the Egyptian word "ptm," which refers to a vessel or container.
• שָׁקַע (shaqa) - Found in Ugaritic, this word means "to sink" or "to submerge." It is derived from the Egyptian word "šq".

Exodus causes later Egyptian loanwords? Or did this happen other times as well that Egyptian loanwords happened?

@sjastro you wrote, "Another problem with the Exodus if the Hebrews were in Egypt for 430 years before escaping and having been subjected to enslavement and cultural destruction how did their Semitic language survive?"

My thinking wondering?
How similar was Semitic to either Sanskrit or German?
Because I thought Sanskrit language went eastward while Germanic language went westward?

What is Semitic language I'll look online
What are the 7 Semitic languages?

The Semitic language family consists of dozens of distinct languages and modern day dialects, but the major Semitic languages are Arabic, Amharic (spoken in Ethiopia), Tigrinya (spoken in Ethiopia and Eritrea), Hebrew, Tigre (spoken in Sudan), Aramaic (spoken in Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Iraq and Iran) and Maltese.

All In The Language Family: The Semitic Languages - Babbel​

 

[Hans Blaster]

100 million years ago the entire state of Colorado and much of middle North America was submerged under the Western Interior seaway. This flooding left behind large amounts of sedimentary deposits, like the Pierre Shale and Fox Hills Formation (sandstone).

The rocky mountain must not be so high if the entire state was under water.

View attachment 351425

That's not a flood, it is a sea. Also, look up "uplift".

 

[rvs]

מֶצֶז (meṣez) - This word appears in Ugaritic and possibly Hebrew, meaning "mud" or "mortar." It is borrowed from the Egyptian word "msṣ" often referring to the mixture used in construction.

@sjastro

Mud bricks only need 1% straw, and sometimes mud bricks don't need any straw at all. I'm amazed at how little amount of straw was needed for mud bricks.

The thought that the Pharaoh "pre-exodus" actually asked to gather straw when mud bricks only need 1% of straw means there's no way the pharaoh would demand to gather straw because of how little amount of straw was needed.

So the borrowed word "mss" was from the Egyptian. There's no straw in "mss," am I understanding correctly?