Exodus evidence (part 2 updated)

[AV1611VET]

If they considered it important they would have found a way to preserve it. Same with their cultural ways as well.

Just like they did the Babylonian captivity.

 

[Neogaia777]

Just like they did the Babylonian captivity.

Pretty much.

We also know that they did always consider it important, etc.

Probably was very frustrating to a lot of other cultures when they did take them into captivity, or did enslave them, etc.

"These stubborn proud Hebrews" they probably thought, etc.

God Bless.

 

[AV1611VET]

The schematics, or the way Noah was told to build it, shows it was not a ship, but just a square, rectangular-shaped wooden box, etc.

Yupper.

And for the record, I don't believe it had any nails, screws, or bolts.

It was miraculously held together by pitch.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yupper.

And for the record, I don't believe it had any nails, screws, or bolts.

It was miraculously held together by pitch.

Or lashings probably.

And pitch (or tar) was used to seal it, etc.

God Bless.

 

[dlamberth]

Can God flood the entire moon with floodwaters 20 miles deep tomorrow; then the day after tomorrow have the moon back to its original conditional with absolutely zero evidence that anything at all happened?

No!

 

[sjastro]

If they considered it important they would have found a way to preserve it. Same with their cultural ways as well.

God Bless.

What makes you think an enslaved people had control of their own destiny?
The closest thing in the Bible that comes to the Exodus of an enslaved people which is supported by archeological evidence was the mass deportation of the Jews to Babylonia in the 6th century BC.
Known as the Babylonian captivity - Wikipedia which lasted for 'only' 70 years brought profound changes to the written language of the Jews who adopted the Aramaic script used by the Babylonians and Assyrians.

It would rather incredulous to think being in Egypt for 430 years would not have resulted in considerable changes to the Hebrew's Semitic language.

 

[Neogaia777]

What makes you think an enslaved people had control of their own destiny?
The closest thing in the Bible that comes to the Exodus of an enslaved people which is supported by archeological evidence was the mass deportation of the Jews to Babylonia in the 6th century BC.
Known as the Babylonian captivity - Wikipedia which lasted for 'only' 70 years brought profound changes to the written language of the Jews who adopted the Aramaic script used by the Babylonians and Assyrians.

It would rather incredulous to think being in Egypt for 430 years would not have resulted in considerable changes to the Hebrew's Semitic language.

They weren't in control of their own destiny while they were enslaved, but they could have still been in control of their own identity, if they considered it important enough, and that's all I am really saying.

It's one of the hardest things to do as an imprisoned or incarcerated or enslaved people/person, but it is possible to do, etc.

And you keep mentioning "archeological evidence", but so far I haven't seen anything that absolutely disproves the Exodus, etc.

But I do keep reading, and following certain threads like this one, and waiting.

And it doesn't help your case any to almost any believer when your evidence completely leaves out the possibility altogether of any kind of God that is able to do anything quote/unquote "super or other natural" when talking about the quote/unquote "evidence" when presenting or trying to make your case, etc.

Just in case you want to leave those ones out for future reference, etc.

Because they are not going to get or go anywhere with someone like me, etc.

Most believers believe things like God providing them with manna from the sky, and with water, and pillar of cloud by day, and fire by or at night, shoes and clothing and other supplies never wearing out/running out, or having to be replaced, and things like that, etc.

So if you are talking about evidence, or lack of evidence, that might or might not be present, or that might be negated because of things like that, then trying to refute that or those because you just leave all of that out is probably not going to get you anywhere with almost any believer. Just for future reference, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

They weren't in control of their own destiny while they were enslaved, but they could have still been in control of their own identity, if they considered it important enough, and that's all I am really saying.

It's one of the hardest things to do as an imprisoned or incarcerated or enslaved people/person, but it is possible to do, etc.

And you keep mentioning "archeological evidence", but so far I haven't seen anything that absolutely disproves the Exodus, etc.

But I do keep reading, and following certain threads like this one, and waiting.

And it doesn't help your case any to almost any believer when your evidence completely leaves out the possibility altogether of any kind of God that is able to do anything quote/unquote "super or other natural" when talking about the quote/unquote "evidence" when presenting or trying to make your case, etc.

Just in case you want to leave those ones out for future reference, etc.

Because they are not going to get or go anywhere with someone like me, etc.

Most believers believe things like God providing them with manna from the sky, and with water, and pillar of cloud by day, and fire by or at night, shoes and clothing and other supplies never wearing out/running out, or having to be replaced, and things like that, etc.

So if you are talking about evidence, or lack of evidence, that might or might not be present, or that might be negated because of things like that, then trying to refute that or those because you just leave all of that out is probably not going to get you anywhere with almost any believer. Just for future reference, etc.

God Bless.

I'm also no expert on archeological or evidence (or lack thereof) for Exodus, etc.

But what @Mrpp, and a few others, has or have been saying about this subject is pretty good, and I have not yet seen it fully refuted yet, in either this thread, or other threads, etc.

But I'll keep watching, and reading, and following, and waiting, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Ace777]

There is zero evidence of a Noah flood.

Evidence that you are aware of or are willing to admit to. The area we are talking about, the Tigris Euphrates river valley of Ancient Mesopotamia is a flood plain so there have been LOTS of flood there. Actually if you do your research you will see that the area floods every year. So go ahead and tell you insurance company that flood planes are not at a high risk for disaster and see if they will reduce your rates. But I really do not think you will convince them of anything.

 

[Occams Barber]

Evidence that you are aware of or are willing to admit to. The area we are talking about, the Tigris Euphrates river valley of Ancient Mesopotamia is a flood plain so there have been LOTS of flood there. Actually if you do your research you will see that the area floods every year. So go ahead and tell you insurance company that flood planes are not at a high risk for disaster and see if they will reduce your rates. But I really do not think you will convince them of anything.

There are, and have been, past floods in many parts of the world.

None of these floods are proof of a global flood much less a global flood involving a zoological ark and a small Jewish family.

OB

 

[Neogaia777]

I only jumped back in this thread because the subject matter had started to change from exodus, to being about the flood, etc, but I don't have anything to add or subtract to, or say about the evidence (or lack thereof) for a more literal or not Exodus right now, etc. So I would direct you all to discuss/debate that with others right now, etc. And I'll just keep following the thread until it maybe changes to something else that I do think I could maybe add or subtract to or from yet, etc, ok.

Good debating!

God Bless.

 

[Ace777]

None of these floods are proof of a global flood

I never said Noah's flood was a global flood. The global flood took place 200 million years ago at Pangea. This is why we find dinosaur bones in flood deposits at the top of the rocky mountains.

 

[Neogaia777]

This is not directly directed at you @sjastro but what you said about the Israelites exodus/captivity in Babylon has given me some thoughts.

The difference between the Hebrews being slaves in Egypt, and the Israelites exile in Babylon was that the Babylonians were not using them as slaves exactly for one, and then for another, Babylon had learned the true secret to subjegating or conquering a people, etc, and they worked very, very hard at it, etc and this was to eliminate their culture, or change their cultural identity, etc, and they were very, very much greatly interested in this, and it's the exact same thing the Spirit of Babylon tries to do today, etc.

I mean they tried very, very hard with four people in particular, but in the end, were not able to do it, etc, but Babylon sought/always seeks to enslave/eliminate a people by making them a part of their society or culture and getting them to like it or value it so very much that they completely give up on their own culture/language or cultural identity, etc, and this was the real true secret to fully conquering or enslaving a people in their mind, and is the same thing the spirit of Babylon always tries to do to individuals or people today, etc. Maybe in the hopes of building a very high tower to reach Heaven and overthrow God, eh, etc, lol.

But and/or anyway, Egypt had not learned this yet, and were only interested as having the Hebrews as slaves, or for slave labor, etc, and other than just only being able to communicate with them, probably didn't give a darn about their culture, or getting them all to worship their gods (like Babylon, etc) so I very much highly doubt they were working very hard at that, etc, unlike Babylon, who knew something Egypt did not, or had not yet learned yet, etc. I doubt the Egyptians gave two darns what the Hebrews did in their off time in the slaves barracks, as long as they were all still being good, well-behaved/manageable slaves for them, etc.

Anyway, just had these thoughts when the difference between the two was mentioned, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Occams Barber]

I never said Noah's flood was a global flood. The global flood took place 200 million years ago at Pangea. This is why we find dinosaur bones in flood deposits at the top of the rocky mountains.

Pangea is an early geographical area when a number of present-day continents were connected. It isn't a flood.

OB

 

[Neogaia777]

This is not directly directed at you @sjastro but what you said about the Israelites exodus/captivity in Babylon has given me some thoughts.

The difference between the Hebrews being slaves in Egypt, and the Israelites exile in Babylon was that the Babylonians were not using them as slaves exactly for one, and then for another, Babylon had learned the true secret to subjegating or conquering a people, etc, and they worked very, very hard at it, etc and this was to eliminate their culture, or change their cultural identity, etc, and they were very, very much greatly interested in this, and it's the exact same thing the Spirit of Babylon tries to do today, etc.

I mean they tried very, very hard with four people in particular, but in the end, were not able to do it, etc, but Babylon sought/always seeks to enslave/eliminate a people by making them a part of their society or culture and getting them to like it or value it so very much that they completely give up on their own culture/language or cultural identity, etc, and this was the real true secret to fully conquering or enslaving a people in their mind, and is the same thing the spirit of Babylon always tries to do to individuals or people today, etc. Maybe in the hopes of building a very high tower to reach Heaven and overthrow God, eh, etc, lol.

But and/or anyway, Egypt had not learned this yet, and were only interested as having the Hebrews as slaves, or for slave labor, etc, and other than just only being able to communicate with them, probably didn't give a darn about their culture, or getting them all to worship their gods (like Babylon, etc) so I very much highly doubt they were working very hard at that, etc, unlike Babylon, who knew something Egypt did not, or had not yet learned yet, etc. I doubt the Egyptians gave two darns what the Hebrews did in their off time in the slaves barracks, as long as they were all still being good, well-behaved/manageable slaves for them, etc.

Anyway, just had these thoughts when the difference between the two was mentioned, etc.

God Bless.

What I just thought of/said about Babylon could possibly give us insight into the true identity of the great Harlot, and Babylon the Great maybe? It's a Spirit ultimately, etc. With certain kinds of strategies (to subjegate or conquer) or behaviors ultimately, etc. Getting them to serve/be subjegated by the god's of commerce and luxury and entertainment maybe, etc? Among other things, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Astrid]

There is zero evidence of a Noah flood. Floods leave clear evidence. And one the size and anger of a Noah's flood that we are told happened only 4000 years ago would have left clear evidence all over the globe. Take a look at the evidence of the Ice Age floods of 12,000 years ago that swept across 3 states here in the Northwest. That was longer ago than the suppose Noah's flood, and evidence of that flood is clear with no sign of a Global Flood after it.

Missoula floods - Wikipedia

Besides the "no evidence" there is extensive
disproof.
( and discredit for the f.ood - insisters)


Polar ice caps, say.

Even a LastThursdayist admts there's no evidence.

The thursdayists should be debating the " clams on everest" people.

Someone on their education level, rather than pretending to know more than any geologist on earth.

They weren't in control of their own destiny while they were enslaved, but they could have still been in control of their own identity, if they considered it important enough, and that's all I am really saying.

It's one of the hardest things to do as an imprisoned or incarcerated or enslaved people/person, but it is possible to do, etc.

And you keep mentioning "archeological evidence", but so far I haven't seen anything that absolutely disproves the Exodus, etc.

But I do keep reading, and following certain threads like this one, and waiting.

And it doesn't help your case any to almost any believer when your evidence completely leaves out the possibility altogether of any kind of God that is able to do anything quote/unquote "super or other natural" when talking about the quote/unquote "evidence" when presenting or trying to make your case, etc.

Just in case you want to leave those ones out for future reference, etc.

Because they are not going to get or go anywhere with someone like me, etc.

Most believers believe things like God providing them with manna from the sky, and with water, and pillar of cloud by day, and fire by or at night, shoes and clothing and other supplies never wearing out/running out, or having to be replaced, and things like that, etc.

So if you are talking about evidence, or lack of evidence, that might or might not be present, or that might be negated because of things like that, then trying to refute that or those because you just leave all of that out is probably not going to get you anywhere with almost any believer. Just for future reference, etc.

God Bless.

One could tell the police they
did not file a false report-
After complaining of a one- million strong
herd of wild buffalo invading the house!

No hoof prints, no poop, your carpets are clean,
the petunias are blooming, the back fence is intact.

Aerial surveillance fails to detect any trace of buffaloes.

"You cops don't believe me coz you ain't believers!
You just leave out God, in whom all is possible!
My words are true coz I am a believer!"


It is  possible to be Christian with complete
intellectual integrity, but its hard. Christianity isn't supposed to be easy.
Its hard just as it is for a scientist, an attorney, doctor
or anyone else to successfuly pursue integrity.

Pretending to " know" the Truth just because
of claimed status as a " believer" is not honest.

And, if a God exists, profoundly distespectful-
to the God and human intelligence.

 

[sjastro]

They weren't in control of their own destiny while they were enslaved, but they could have still been in control of their own identity, if they considered it important enough, and that's all I am really saying.

It's one of the hardest things to do as an imprisoned or incarcerated or enslaved people/person, but it is possible to do, etc.

History shows you are wrong.
Why did African slaves sent to your country eventually lose their traditional religions and languages if it was possible they could control their identity?
When the Normans conquered England in 1066, they introduced a Romance language and Old English eventually evolved into Middle English using a substantial amount of Norman French vocabulary.
Clearly the Anglo-Saxon population did not control their own identity as Old English formed a large part of their identity.
The idea an enslaved people can resist the suppression and modification of their language for over four centuries is unrealistic.

And you keep mentioning "archeological evidence", but so far I haven't seen anything that absolutely disproves the Exodus, etc.

But I do keep reading, and following certain threads like this one, and waiting.

And it doesn't help your case any to almost any believer when your evidence completely leaves out the possibility altogether of any kind of God that is able to do anything quote/unquote "super or other natural" when talking about the quote/unquote "evidence" when presenting or trying to make your case, etc.

Just in case you want to leave those ones out for future reference, etc.

Because they are not going to get or go anywhere with someone like me, etc.

Most believers believe things like God providing them with manna from the sky, and with water, and pillar of cloud by day, and fire by or at night, shoes and clothing and other supplies never wearing out/running out, or having to be replaced, and things like that, etc.

So if you are talking about evidence, or lack of evidence, that might or might not be present, or that might be negated because of things like that, then trying to refute that or those because you just leave all of that out is probably not going to get you anywhere with almost any believer. Just for future reference, etc.

God Bless.

The Babylonian captivity is an example where the biblical story is supported archaeologically from both Babylonian and Persian sources, so why shouldn't the Exodus be subjected to the same standards?
Why should biblical archaeologists of the maximalist kind who assume the Bible is correct until archaeological evidence shows otherwise even bother to conduct expeditions if miracles play a role which cannot be confirmed archaeologically?

 

[Neogaia777]

@Astrid @sjastro

You guys believe what you want.

I'm out for now, or until the subject changes again.

God Bless.

 

[common prophets]

Then why only one flood story?

You'd think they would have the earth being flooded every year.

It is not correct to say there is only one flood story. There is only one flood story in the Bible. There is another flood story in the Sumerian legend of Gilgamesh, there is yet another flood story in various other texts. No, no one is claiming that they are the same flood. All they are saying is that there was a flood.

I do think, though that this was the same flood that was recorded in various texts. The reason is that this particular flood brought forth a very strong reaction by the affected people. They tighten their belts and they started to move across the lands and therefore what was remembered was this particular flood which was followed by making of the Tower of Babel and it is very significant that it says that previously there was only one language and then there it became many languages. So, this one particular flood story becomes important because of the response that it begets from the affected people.

 

[AV1611VET]

No!

Mine can.