Why did Putin visit a tiny Orthodox church in North Korea?

[Michie]

Earlier this month, Vladimir Putin visited North Korea in search of friends and influence. The visit set off alarm bells around the world, particularly in South Korea and Japan, where the danger of deepening military ties between Russia and North Korea is most acutely felt. The visit was a reminder that Putin's vision of the "Russian world" extends far beyond the Slavic lands of Eastern Europe.

One aspect of Putin's visit, however, flew under the radar.

When he was in North Korea, Putin stopped by the Church of the Life-Giving Trinity, where divine offices were held in his honor. He is one of the few to worship there, as, predictably, very few locals do. It was a piece of political theater from the old Soviet days, with the complete cooperation of the Patriarch of Moscow.

Why do Putin and the Patriarch of Moscow care about this tiny congregation?

Continued below.

Why did Putin visit a tiny Orthodox church in North Korea?

(RNS) — The presence of a Russian Orthodox Church in Pyongyang is meant to send a powerful message about Russia’s sphere of influence.

religionnews.com

 

[Bob Crowley]

Whatever other faults he might have, he's at least prepared to endorse the Orthodox Christian Church in an otherwise hardline Stalinist and atheist state. There aren't too many western leaders who would do the same thing.

 

[Nagomirov]

Whatever other faults he might have, he's at least prepared to endorse the Orthodox Christian Church in an otherwise hardline Stalinist and atheist state. There aren't too many western leaders who would do the same thing.

There are traditional values in Russia! Gay pride parades are prohibited here. Ordinary citizens of Russia can hit informal people, gays. Of course, the law does not allow this, but this is the mentality of most Russians. For most Russians, wearing blue hair will also cause censure. Many Russians are parents with many children.

 

[ViaCrucis]

There are traditional values in Russia! Gay pride parades are prohibited here. Ordinary citizens of Russia can hit informal people, gays. Of course, the law does not allow this, but this is the mentality of most Russians. For most Russians, wearing blue hair will also cause censure. Many Russians are parents with many children.

Sounds like a terrible place to live.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Nagomirov]

Sounds like a terrible place to live.

-CryptoLutheran

It's just that your society has become sick, but you consider it healthy.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It's just that your society has become sick, but you consider it healthy.

Sorry, couldn't hear you over the sound of how awesome American freedom is.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Michie]

Sorry, couldn't hear you over the sound of how awesome American freedom is.

-CryptoLutheran

QFT.

 

[Nagomirov]

Извините, я не расслышал вас из-за того, как удивительна американская свобода.

-Криптолютеранский

Tolerance does not lead to goodness, but leads to permissiveness.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Sounds like a terrible place to live.

-CryptoLutheran

Why does a gay parade make a country better or more awesome? Especially from a Christian perspective?

 

[Lukaris]

So this gesture basically says that North Korea is not an anti Christian, totalitarian, murderous state that still can produce missiles during famines etc. is basically a decent nation. Seems more like mutual murderers finding common cause.

North Korean embassy closures point to struggle and starvation

Though a string of embassy closures points to financial hardships and food shortages in North Korea, Kim Jong-un will continue to demand sacrifices to ensure his own longevity, writes Emma Whitmyer (Asia Society Policy Institute).

eastasiaforum.org

Whatever war a Christian wages is to be spiritual per Ephesians 6:10-18.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why does a gay parade make a country better or more awesome? Especially from a Christian perspective?

A nation that forbids liberty for some is a nation that can forbid liberty for any.

If they can stop a gay pride parade, they can stop a church service. Once we erode the foundations of liberty, we are all in jeopardy. Because the powerful will always crave power.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

A nation that forbids liberty for some is a nation that can forbid liberty for any.

If they can stop a gay pride parade, they can stop a church service. Once we erode the foundations of liberty, we are all in jeopardy. Because the powerful will always crave power.

-CryptoLutheran

Has Orthodoxy been banned in Russia? The correlation you are drawing is one which is not necessarily true. You don't need a country to tolerate gay pride parades in order to tolerate Christianity. Russian Orthodoxy is currently favoured in Russian society, so your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Also you've failed to answer from a Christian perspective why gay pride parades make a country more awesome. Maybe from a liberal secular perspective which doesn't value traditional Christian marriage, yes that makes a country awesome, but from a Christian perspective? No, the church has considered such displays as disgusting and degenerate. Why should Russia embrace LGBT degeneracy? Christianity is not Libertarianism.

Is this something every country and every community everywhere should embrace? Even if they have deep hostility and internal wariness towards it?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Has Orthodoxy been banned in Russia? The correlation you are drawing is one which is not necessarily true. You don't need a country to tolerate gay pride parades in order to tolerate Christianity. Russian Orthodoxy is currently favoured in Russian society, so your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Also you've failed to answer from a Christian perspective why gay pride parades make a country more awesome. Maybe from a liberal secular perspective which doesn't value traditional Christian marriage, yes that makes a country awesome, but from a Christian perspective? No, the church has considered such displays as disgusting and degenerate. Why should Russia embrace LGBT degeneracy? Christianity is not Libertarianism.

Is this something every country and every community everywhere should embrace? Even if they have deep hostility and internal wariness towards it?

Let's play a fun game.
I'm a Lutheran. In your idealized "Christian" society and government, what rights--if any--do I have to openly practice my Lutheran faith?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Let's play a fun game.
I'm a Lutheran. In your idealized "Christian" society and government, what rights--if any--do I have to openly practice my Lutheran faith?

-CryptoLutheran

That depends, LCMS or some less Christian and homosexual form of Lutheranism? I'd be more partial to the former seeing as there are things we could probably agree about.

Of course idealized states are not in my prerogative, for me it's a question of whose side are you ultimately on. Are you on the side which seeks to undermine public expression of Christianity in law and society? Or are you on the side of those of us who would like to see a return to Christian standards in public life?

But not all countries have to be like America. If Russia wants to be more Orthodox than purely secular or liberal, why can't it be? Why would I as an Orthodox Christian want Russia to be more like the USA and become less Christian and less Orthodox?

 

[ViaCrucis]

That depends, LCMS or some less Christian and homosexual form of Lutheranism? I'd be more partial to the former seeing as there are things we could probably agree about.

Of course idealized states are not in my prerogative, for me it's a question of whose side are you ultimately on. Are you on the side which seeks to undermine public expression of Christianity in law and society? Or are you on the side of those of us who would like to see a return to Christian standards in public life?

But not all countries have to be like America. If Russia wants to be more Orthodox than purely secular or liberal, why can't it be? Why would I as an Orthodox Christian want Russia to be more like the USA and become less Christian and less Orthodox?

Interesting attempt at dodging the question. Though you did say this part out loud:

"seeing as there are things we could probably agree about".

Which I'm taking to mean as my agreement with you is the chief condition on whether I have any substantive rights in the kind of Christian society you envision.

Things aren't looking great in your "Orthodox" country for people who aren't like Ignatius the Kiwi.

Speaking of Lutherans, one of our more well known historical figures penned this famous poem.

"First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me"

So, just so we're clear. I plan on speaking out.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Interesting attempt at dodging the question. Though you did say this part out loud:

"seeing as there are things we could probably agree about".

Which I'm taking to mean as my agreement with you is the chief condition on whether I have any substantive rights in the kind of Christian society you envision.

Things aren't looking great in your "Orthodox" country for people who aren't like Ignatius the Kiwi.

Speaking of Lutherans, one of our more well known historical figures penned this famous poem.

"First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me"

So, just so we're clear. I plan on speaking out.

-CryptoLutheran

I dodged nothing. You just don't agree with my answer desire all societies everywhere to conform to your American and liberal ideals of freedom.

Of course I reject said liberalism in favour of an authentic Christian view of the world and that liberty is not an automatic good. Why does Russia need to be more gay in your opinion? Why do you want all countries to be less Christian and religious In their outlook?

 

[jas3]

If they can stop a gay pride parade, they can stop a church service.

They did stop church services in the West in 2020 and some places didn't restart until 2022.

 

[ViaCrucis]

They did stop church services in the West in 2020 and some places didn't restart until 2022.

Most churches voluntarily stopped in-person services because there was a deadly pandemic going on. My church included. A similar thing happened in the early 20th century with the outbreak of Spanish flu.

The difference between the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic, and the 2020 Covid-19 pandemic is that the latter was heavily politicized. So much so that there are still people spreading conspiracy theories about it and its vaccine.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I dodged nothing. You just don't agree with my answer desire all societies everywhere to conform to your American and liberal ideals of freedom.

Of course I reject said liberalism in favour of an authentic Christian view of the world and that liberty is not an automatic good. Why does Russia need to be more gay in your opinion? Why do you want all countries to be less Christian and religious In their outlook?

I just want a straight answer.

I'm a Lutheran, in a "Christian" and "Orthodox" country which you envision, what right(s) would I have to practice my Lutheran faith?

Will I be allowed to attend Divine Service? Will I be allowed to freely, and without government oversight and control, believe in and confess the Book of Concord? Will I be allowed to freely speak about and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ in accordance with those same Lutheran Confessions? Will I be allowed to openly dissent, disagree, and debate ideas, beliefs, and practices of your church with which I disagree with, without threat of violence, imprisonment, or censure?

I don't believe the Orthodox Church is Jesus' Church. As a Lutheran I believe that I am a member of God's Holy and Catholic Church, instituted by Jesus Christ. Reformed by the Gospel of Jesus against medieval error. Will I be allowed to voice that opinion? What would the consequences be for me voicing that opinion?

I want a real answer.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I just want a straight answer.

I'm a Lutheran, in a "Christian" and "Orthodox" country which you envision, what right(s) would I have to practice my Lutheran faith?

Will I be allowed to attend Divine Service? Will I be allowed to freely, and without government oversight and control, believe in and confess the Book of Concord? Will I be allowed to freely speak about and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ in accordance with those same Lutheran Confessions? Will I be allowed to openly dissent, disagree, and debate ideas, beliefs, and practices of your church with which I disagree with, without threat of violence, imprisonment, or censure?

I don't believe the Orthodox Church is Jesus' Church. As a Lutheran I believe that I am a member of God's Holy and Catholic Church, instituted by Jesus Christ. Reformed by the Gospel of Jesus against medieval error. Will I be allowed to voice that opinion? What would the consequences be for me voicing that opinion?

I want a real answer.

-CryptoLutheran

I can't say. It depends on the importance the society places on Orthodoxy. You might be allowed or you might not be allowed. Would you promote a belief which goes contrary to the teachings of divine Orthodoxy in a society which values that first and foremost? Would you promote liberalism, LGBT, Transitioning children and other liberal beliefs and ideologies? I don't think you'd be welcome in any such strictly Christian society. You might be tolerated as a minority but the expectation would be that you don't try to change the dominant society. Much like how it happened in the past when minority communities were tolerated in the midst of larger ones.

You seem to think I am offering a utopia when all I am suggesting is that Christians do have common interests and we should act on them. We don't need to give up all power and hand it to non-Christians. Even int he American context because there are commonalities among Christians, like a rejection of LGBT, an importance on the sacred and an opposition to blasphemy. I get the feeling you are more a progressive rainbow kind of Lutheran, so I understand your hostility to Christianity in society in general.

Yet I note I didn't really receive a satisfactory answer from you about what makes LGBT awesome from a Christian perspective. Why does every society have to resemble American society? You speak about freedom but what about the freedom to want to live in a society that reflects you and your own values? Are Christians not allowed to work towards this goal?