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Baptists (and others)-- Wives submit to husbands? Wives and husbands equal partners?

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ralliann

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And I have said yes, there is submission; within a dynamic of mutual submission and cooperation and love and service. Not within a dynamic of one-way control.

And I have tried to get you to clarify and to spell out exactly what you mean by "headship," and how that should be expressed, and what limits (if any) there are to it turning into a dynamic of control, but the answers have been very vague. Setting the tone and getting the right to make a decision where there's disagreement, apparently; but then there's submission in "all things" which goes way beyond that and has no apparent limits.

So I have no idea what you're really advocating for, in terms of how people actually do life together.

No, I pointed out the key similarity, which was about the relationship, and what that means for how people cooperate and work together.

No, that is not what I am claiming. But perhaps I have not spelled out my chain of reasoning clearly enough.

We know that men who abuse their wives (or partners) tend to hold a trio, a cluster, of beliefs and attitudes, which drive that abuse; and that that cluster of beliefs is not held by men who don't abuse. That's the key differentiator between why some men abuse and some don't; the ones who abuse hold these beliefs.

That cluster of beliefs is:
- acceptance of violence
- belief in hierarchy, dynamics of power and control in the household
- rigid gender roles.

So, any time we put forward justification for any of these three beliefs which underpin abuse, we foster the attitudes which drive abuse.

Am I saying that makes a person who argues for hierarchy in marriage directly responsible for someone who beats his wife? No. But I am saying that all of us - especially those of us who claim authority as teachers and leaders in the church - are indirectly responsible to the extent that we contribute in any way to the formation of these attitudes.

It's not enough to say, "I believe in hierarchy and control, but not in violence." That's still building one leg of the tripod on which abuse rests, and we need to dismantle the religious justification for the whole tripod. (This is what the work of primary prevention that I've been involved with has been working on directly; building understandings of marriage which are profoundly Scriptural, take into account the whole of Scripture, and yet do so in a way which doesn't result in abuse as the fruit of it).

To the extent that headship means control, I believe this is true.

If you can put forward an understanding of headship which does not mean control, then I will be able to see what your "undistorted" view is. But I haven't seen that yet.
1 Pet. 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Abrahams LORDSHIP in the matter ---- Authority brings responsibility to do right....
1. "my wrong be upon thee"
Gen 16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. {obtain … : Heb. be built by her }
3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
4 ¶ And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.
 
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ValeriyK2022

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1 Pet. 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Abrahams LORDSHIP in the matter ---- Authority brings responsibility to do right....
1. "my wrong be upon thee"
Gen 16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. {obtain … : Heb. be built by her }
3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
4 ¶ And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.
The start is right.

Regarding the case of Sarah, should Abraham have obeyed his wife in this matter? There were no Ten Commandments given through Moses (specifically, the commandment “thou shalt not commit adultery”). But God had already promised him that he would have offspring. Why did he listen to his wife more than to God?
 
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ValeriyK2022

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1 Пет. 3:1 Также и вы, жены, подчиняйтесь своим мужьям, дабы те, которые не покоряются слову, и без слова приобретены были житием жен.
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Abrahams LORDSHIP in the matter ---- Authority brings responsibility to do right....
1. "my wrong be upon thee"
Gen 16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. {obtain … : Heb. be built by her }
3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
4 ¶ And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.
The start is right.

Regarding the case of Sarah, should Abraham have obeyed his wife in this matter? There were no Ten Commandments given through Moses (specifically, the commandment “thou shalt not commit adultery”). But God had already promised him that he would have offspring. Why did he listen to his wife more than to God?

After all, God did not tell him to take another wife; his promises concerned Sarah.
 
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ralliann

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The start is right.

Regarding the case of Sarah, should Abraham have obeyed his wife in this matter?
Yes.
There were no Ten Commandments given through Moses (specifically, the commandment “thou shalt not commit adultery”). But God had already promised him that he would have offspring. Why did he listen to his wife more than to God?
Polygamy is not adultery for a man. It was even regulated under the law, and commanded for Levirate marriage.
Men or women Nazarites....
Nu 6:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD: {to separate … : or, to make themselves Nazarites }

But.....Abraham harkened (heard) Sara
Nu 30:3 If a woman also vow a vow unto the LORD, and bind herself by a bond, being in her father’s house in her youth;
Nu 30:4 And her father hear her vow, and her bond wherewith she hath bound her soul, and her father shall hold his peace at her: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she hath bound her soul shall stand.
6 And if she had at all an husband, when she vowed, or uttered ought out of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul; {she vowed: Heb. her vows were upon her }
7 And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her in the day that he heard it: then her vows shall stand, and her bonds wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.
8 But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her.
9 But every vow of a widow, and of her that is divorced, wherewith they have bound their souls, shall stand against her.
10 And if she vowed in her husband’s house, or bound her soul by a bond with an oath;
11 And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her, and disallowed her not: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.
12 But if her husband hath utterly made them void on the day he heard them; then whatsoever proceeded out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning the bond of her soul, shall not stand: her husband hath made them void; and the LORD shall forgive her.
13 Every vow, and every binding oath to afflict the soul, her husband may establish it, or her husband may make it void.
14 But if her husband altogether hold his peace at her from day to day; then he establisheth all her vows, or all her bonds, which are upon her: he confirmeth them, because he held his peace at her in the day that he heard them.
 
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Paidiske

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The simile specifically references headship on both sides, and submission in all things on both sides.
But clearly this is not meant to be read as identical, since a husband is not in any way comparable to God.
However, the only thing you indicate you take from it is the relationship, cooperation and working together
As opposed to the opposite; being estranged, working independently or pulling against one another, yes. Just as a Christian positions themselves with Christ, and takes his or her place in that community, a wife positions herself with her husband, and takes her place in that household. And in the ancient world that did mean entering into a position of subjection; but that is not necessary.
So if you don't want to discuss the argument, or look at particulars, why continue to engage on a discussion of this sort, about the Scriptures?
As best I can remember without going back to check, every post I have made in this thread after my first one, was in response to replies or comments made to me.
This sounds like a topic for another thread.
Why on earth is the harm that can be done from particular readings of a Scripture, not on topic for a thread discussing the Scripture on a particular topic? Surely that is something critical for all readers to bear in mind?
 
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tall73

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But clearly this is not meant to be read as identical, since a husband is not in any way comparable to God.

The commonality is stated to be headship for both, and those in submission to both.

You have reversed that entirely by putting headship and submission on one side, and equal partnership on the other. It is not at all difficult to see how you have changed the construction.

As opposed to the opposite; being estranged, working independently or pulling against one another, yes. Just as a Christian positions themselves with Christ, and takes his or her place in that community, a wife positions herself with her husband, and takes her place in that household. And in the ancient world that did mean entering into a position of subjection; but that is not necessary.

And now you are back to the subjection being cultural. But the church does not submit to Christ due to Roman culture. And the headship and subjection is said to be on a theological basis, patterned after Christ, not a cultural one.

When you argue based on Roman culture, you know just what subjection means.

When you have to face that the text says it is as the headship of Christ, then you suddenly don't know what it means. Even though you admit the church does submit to Christ.

You change the nature of the word for each party in the simile, which negates the whole point of the construction.

As best I can remember without going back to check, every post I have made in this thread after my first one, was in response to replies or comments made to me.

And you have stated you strategically avoided some arguments. And now that you are replying on those arguments it is clear you are not sure which path to take to get to your desired destination. But the desired destination of equal partnership is the one constant.

You jump back and forth between cultural (where you admit freely what submission in all things means) and theological (where you suddenly change it to equal partnership, even though the church is not in equal partnership with Christ)

And it is very clear the arguments are not cultural:
  • Holy women of old is not based on Roman culture.
  • Headship similar to that of Christ and the church, is not based on Roman culture.
And so your recourse is to change submission into equal partnership. But that is not what the text says.

It says:

Ephesians 5:23-24 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. (NKJV)​
It does not say:

For the husband is not head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so but let the wives be in equal partnership with their husbands in everything.​
 
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tall73

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Why on earth is the harm that can be done from particular readings of a Scripture, not on topic for a thread discussing the Scripture on a particular topic? Surely that is something critical for all readers to bear in mind?

Even in your own analysis it is a three legged stool that is the problem. And you get that stool not from Scripture, but other sources. So the Scriptures are not stating the problem. This thread is about what Scripture says.

If you wish to discuss your secular studies on violence, start a thread.

But in the meantime, you have said you don't think complementarians will be convinced by Scripture. You were upset that I asked about your view of inspiration, because you said it called into question your integrity. But you have no issue with saying that you think complementarians will not change their view based on what the Scriptures say.

So instead you are posting what the Scriptures do not say.

And you refuse to post your "profoundly Scriptural" arguments.

It is time for you to get back on topic in the thread. The topic is what the Scriptures say on the topic, not what your secular studies say.

If you want to discuss the other, make a new thread.
 
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Paidiske

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The commonality is stated to be headship for both, and those in submission to both.
And that was the legal reality then. But we don't need to replicate that legal reality now, in order to understand and apply the principle being put forward here, of unity and cooperation.
And now you are back to the subjection being cultural.
Because it was. That's a historical fact.
And the headship and subjection is said to be on a theological basis, patterned after Christ, not a cultural one.
No; noting that subjection is a legal and cultural reality, making arguments about how to live within that in a manner patterned after Christ, is not establishing a theological basis for that subjection.
When you have to face that the text says it is as the headship of Christ, then you suddenly don't know what it means.
I'm not saying I don't know what it means. I'm saying that the relationship between Christ and the church, and between a husband and wife, are too unlike for one to seek to replicate it in every way.
You change the nature of the word for each party in the simile, which negates the whole point of the construction.
The whole point of the construction is to put forward a vision of household unity. Not to establish a hierarchy of control.
And now that you are replying on those arguments it is clear you are not sure which path to take to get to your desired destination.
I am bringing different arguments to bear, but I believe all of them to be true.
Even in your own analysis it is a three legged stool that is the problem. And you get that stool not from Scripture, but other sources. So the Scriptures are not stating the problem. This thread is about what Scripture says.
But - for example - when we consider what Scripture says about "the Jews" in the gospels, we bear in mind the long history of anti-Semitism, the harm done by particular readings of these Scriptures, and so forth. And we are extremely careful not to repeat those mistakes, and to clearly distinguish our own understanding from them. And we do similarly for other passages which have been interpreted and applied in harmful ways.
Because we understand that the Scriptures, as God-breathed, are not given for our harm, but to bring life and its fulness; and if we see the effect of a particular reading is other than that liberating, life-giving purpose of God, we know it is a bad reading.

That's a really important hermeneutic principle that we would apply (or at least, in my experience, it is normal to apply) in all sorts of other cases, so why avoid it here?
You were upset that I asked about your view of inspiration,
No, I was upset with accusations such as that I was "reading in whatever you feel like."
But you have no issue with saying that you think complementarians will not change their view based on what the Scriptures say.
What I said was, that both complementarians and egalitarians will argue that their positions are Scriptural. Both can point to particular texts and say, "See, it says there [my position]." So I don't expect an argument purely on Scripture to convince anyone, because we're looking at the same text and taking away different meanings.

How can we know which position is right? My argument is that one powerful piece of evidence is the fruit. If one reading leads to harm, and another does not, then the harmful reading is much less likely to be correct. But we have to be willing to examine the fruit and acknowledge the reality of the harm, in order to be able to reason in that way.
 
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tall73

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And that was the legal reality then. But we don't need to replicate that legal reality now, in order to understand and apply the principle being put forward here, of unity and cooperation.

He did not say anything about a Roman legal reality. He compared it to Christ and the church.

And Peter spoke of holy women of old, prior to Rome.

Nor is this a cultural argument:

1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.​

Nor is this an appeal to Roman law:

Colossians 3:18 18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. (NKJV)​


Because it was. That's a historical fact.

No, it was not historical fact that the Romans practiced headship compared to Christ and the church, or thought that the head of every man was Christ.

No; noting that subjection is a legal and cultural reality, making arguments about how to live within that in a manner patterned after Christ, is not establishing a theological basis for that subjection.

The text doesn't say

"The Romans have a cultural, legal practice of headship. We know that is not true, but you can live within that by talking about submission but really just being in equal partnership."​

That is what it would have to say for your view to be correct.

But instead he says:

Ephesians 5:23-24 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. (NKJV)​

1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.​
Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. (NKJV)​
1 Peter 3:3-5 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands (NKJV)​

The text argues for actual headship, and submission on the basis of theology, not Roman practice.

I'm not saying I don't know what it means. I'm saying that the relationship between Christ and the church, and between a husband and wife, are too unlike for one to seek to replicate it in every way.

The text points out the commonality between the two, headship and submission.

And if you say in the one case the word means what it normally means, submission, and in the other case, it means equal partnership, you have changed the meaning.

The whole point of the construction is to put forward a vision of household unity. Not to establish a hierarchy of control.

The church submitting in Christ to everything is a hierarchy. Yes there is unity. There is not equal partnership.

I am bringing different arguments to bear, but I believe all of them to be true.

You are arguing two different views of submission.

But - for example - when we consider what Scripture says about "the Jews" in the gospels, we bear in mind the long history of anti-Semitism, the harm done by particular readings of these Scriptures, and so forth. And we are extremely careful not to repeat those mistakes, and to clearly distinguish our own understanding from them. And we do similarly for other passages which have been interpreted and applied in harmful ways.

There is no harm in telling husbands to follow the example of their Head Jesus Christ and to love their wife as Christ loved the church.


Because we understand that the Scriptures, as God-breathed, are not given for our harm, but to bring life and its fulness; and if we see the effect of a particular reading is other than that liberating, life-giving purpose of God, we know it is a bad reading.

There is no harm that comes from someone following the example of their Head Jesus Christ and loving their wife as Christ loved the church.

No, I was upset with accusations such as that I was "reading in whatever you feel like."

Yes, you are reading in. The text nowhere says equal partnership. It says submission in both cases.

The text has two points of similarity, headship, and submission. You change one of those on one side of the simile to something not in the text at all. It does not say equal partnership. That is you reading it in.

What I said was, that both complementarians and egalitarians will argue that their positions are Scriptural. Both can point to particular texts and say, "See, it says there [my position]." So I don't expect an argument purely on Scripture to convince anyone, because we're looking at the same text and taking away different meanings.

I have been convinced to change my mind on a number of Scriptural topics, if, when my views were challenged, it turned out they were not Scriptural.

How can we know which position is right? My argument is that one powerful piece of evidence is the fruit. If one reading leads to harm, and another does not, then the harmful reading is much less likely to be correct.

There is no harm that comes from a husband following the example of his Head Jesus Christ, and loving his wife as Christ loved the church.

And your reading IS much more likely to be incorrect, because it says the opposite of what the text says.

If you have to change headship and submission, to equal partnership on only one side of the simile, you are reading into it.

But we have to be willing to examine the fruit and acknowledge the reality of the harm, in order to be able to reason in that way.

Yes, and no harm comes from a husband following the example of Christ, his Head, and loving his wife as Christ loved the church.
 
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Paidiske

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He did not say anything about a Roman legal reality.
Of course he didn't. He didn't have to.
No, it was not historical fact that the Romans practiced headship compared to Christ and the church, or thought that the head of every man was Christ.
But they did practice patriarchal control. So the point is that despite living in that environment, husbands were to refrain from taking advantage of it, and instead love, serve, and submit to their wives (as their wives also are to love, serve and submit to them).
That is what it would have to say for your view to be correct.
Not at all.
And if you say in the one case the word means what it normally means, submission, and in the other case, it means equal partnership, you have changed the meaning.
No; I have not changed the meaning. I am pointing out that a wife's submission happens within a dynamic of mutual submission. Which, in effect, removes any dynamic of control.
There is no harm in telling husbands to follow the example of their Head Jesus Christ and to love their wife as Christ loved the church.
And if that's where your argument stopped, I would have no problem. But that is not where your argument stops. Your argument goes on to give husbands control over every aspect of their wives' lives, by saying that wives must submit (in a one-sided, non-reciprocated way) in everything. And that is where the harm is.
Yes, you are reading in.
You might think that. But to claim that it's just "whatever you feel like" was what I found particularly accusatory, and indeed inflammatory. Instead of responding to me as someone engaging with the discussion in good faith, my position was dismissed as just "what I feel like." As if there were no reasoning, no scholarship, no hermeneutical rationale, behind it; and as if there were no way someone could hold this position with some intellectual (and pastoral) integrity.
The text nowhere says equal partnership.
I'd argue that it does, where it exhorts couples to submit to one another. (And, incidentally, in other texts such as where couples are told that the body of each belongs to the other; rather than the wife's body simply being the husband's property).
 
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The Liturgist

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I'd argue that it does, where it exhorts couples to submit to one another. (And, incidentally, in other texts such as where couples are told that the body of each belongs to the other; rather than the wife's body simply being the husband's property).

This is indeed correct. It is also clear from the writings of the early church fathers that men could be excommunicated, in some cases being refused the chalice for years, for abusing their wives.
 
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tall73

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I'd argue that it does, where it exhorts couples to submit to one another. (And, incidentally, in other texts such as where couples are told that the body of each belongs to the other; rather than the wife's body simply being the husband's property).
On the issue raised in I Corinthians 7, that is certainly true. And I already cited it in the thread

But you are importing the advice of Paul regarding agreement on sexual intercourse into the texts here to interpret headship and submission as equal partnership. And it is not. Christ is not in equal partnership with the church.

And as we have discussed at length mutual submission is possible even in unequal roles, such as parent and child. The parent serves, looks out for, and at times yields to the will of the child, while still having legitimate authority.

And Jesus, being God, submitted to Mary and Joseph after teaching and questioning the religious leaders at age 12. Mutual submission and service are possible in any relationship.

And mutual submission is still present in marriage, but so is headship. To state that to even use the language of headship that Paul does is to promote abuse is changing the text.

And Paul indicates in theological arguments for headship, patterned off of Christ. And that headship is to love the wife as Christ loved the church.

@The Liturgist. I have argued against abuse throughout the thread, including compelled sex.

But while the church fathers certainly uphold serving one another in love, having the mind of Christ, putting the interest of others ahead if your own, etc., they do not do away with Paul's statements that the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is head if the church. For instance, Chrysostom spoke at length on the subject, in his Homily on Ephesians 5, linked to earlier in the thread.

And Paidiske admitted Anglican tradition taught the same, though she cited Anglican "tradition" from the 1990's as being an exception. I wouldn't consider that tradition at all, but innovation.

She also stated she couldn't be sure whether Paul had spiritually abused the hearers of his writings, despite them being inspired.

A husband who recognizes headship is delegated authority, and that he is accountable to his Head, Christ, is not insisting on his own will, but is exercising headship inline with that of Christ, and for the interests of his entire family.

Are you saying the Orthodox teach against that?
 
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Paidiske

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And as we have discussed at length mutual submission is possible even in unequal roles, such as parent and child.
Each time you have said this, I have, to some extent, disagreed. If one person is controlling another, that is not mutual submission, although a given relationship may involve movements between the two dynamics.
And Paul indicates in theological arguments for headship, patterned off of Christ.
I would say more that Paul recognises the reality of patriarchal structures, and argues that within that, we should live lives patterned after Christ.
And that headship is to love the wife as Christ loved the church.
The thing is, that is not an instruction just to husbands. All Christians are instructed to "love one another, just as I have loved you." Husbands are given a particular reminder that their status and power (in their society) does not exempt them from this instruction to all Christians.
 
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tall73

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This is indeed correct. It is also clear from the writings of the early church fathers that men could be excommunicated, in some cases being refused the chalice for years, for abusing their wives.

@The Liturgist

There are Orthodox posters who are arguing against the position of Padiske in the thread, and she is admittedly out of line with church fathers quoted in the thread.

I understand you are having medical procedures today, so I do not ask you to do anything at the moment in this regard. But, Lord willing, if you are able to later, please come and correct me and the Orthodox posters if you feel we are out of line with Scripture or the church fathers.
 
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tall73

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Each time you have said this, I have, to some extent, disagreed. If one person is controlling another, that is not mutual submission, although a given relationship may involve movements between the two dynamics.

You agreed submission is to yield the will. Of course parents yield to their children in all kinds of things, as long as it is not against the interest of the child. We often put our will aside for that of the child.

We don't treat their will as unimportant, despite them being under our authority.

And you admitted Jesus, being God, submitted to His parents.

Submitting to one another is certainly about attitudes and individual actions. It does not mean both are servants to each other at the same time, as though both are going to take commands from one another, simultaneously.

It does mean we serve, and look to the interests of others, and are willing to yield our will. And that is possible in various relationships, with roles of unequal authority.

There is still headship and accountabililty. Eli was still responsible for not restraining his children.

Adam was still responsible for sin and death entering the world, though both he and Eve sinned, as the text spells out in Romans 5.


I would say more that Paul recognises the reality of patriarchal structures, and argues that within that, we should live lives patterned after Christ.

Paul argues positively for headship, patterned after the headship of Christ. He is not just recognizing structures present in Rome. And his various arguments also refer back to creation, as outlined at length.

1 Corinthians 11:2-3 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (NKJV)​

That is not based on Roman culture. It is a positive statement of a theological reality. And so is this:

Ephesians 5:22-27 22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.​
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. (NKJV)​


The thing is, that is not an instruction just to husbands. All Christians are instructed to "love one another, just as I have loved you." Husbands are given a particular reminder that their status and power (in their society) does not exempt them from this instruction to all Christians.

Of course they are not exempted! But it is not just their society that grants headship.

Authority is not to be lorded over, as those in the world wield authority, also as Jesus said. But it is still headship, presented as following the example of the headship of Christ.

Adam was still accountable, as Paul spelled out, for the fall, and sin and death entering the world--one man, Adam, though both sinned. Christ came to bring righteousness and eternal life, following Adam's transgression.

And it was not just Paul's "patriarchy", it was a definite theological argument.
 
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Paidiske

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You agreed submission is to yield the will. Of course parents yield to their children in all kinds of things, as long as it is not against the interest of the child. We often put our will aside for that of the child.
But mutual submission is not, "I yield sometimes, and other times I'm in control." It's more, "we work together to find a position where neither is being controlled by the other."
Submitting to one another is certainly about attitudes and individual actions. It does not mean both are servants to each other at the same time, as though both are going to take commands from one another, simultaneously.
No, but both are going to work together so that neither is controlled by the other.
Paul argues positively for headship, patterned after the headship of Christ. He is not just recognizing structures present in Rome.
I'd disagree, and say that Paul recognises a cultural and legal reality, and within that, argues that it should be lived out by Christians in a way that is patterned after Christ.
That is not based on Roman culture.
I disagree. It's just stating the Roman legal reality, and saying, but these relationships exist within a bigger set of relationships where God is at the head of all.
Of course they are not exempted!
But if each of us is commanded to love one another, as Christ has loved us (the church), then that has nothing to do with headship.
 
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tall73

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But mutual submission is not, "I yield sometimes, and other times I'm in control." It's more, "we work together to find a position where neither is being controlled by the other."
It says submitting to one another in love. Everyone is to be open to yielding their own will, including those in authority.

It doesn't say everyone works together to find a position where everyone is equal, and no one ever submits to anyone.

Paul spells out proper relations of authority in the passage, and in others. And yes, he warns those who have authority--but not just cultural based authority. We already saw the same with overseers and the congregation.

It is not as though Paul wasn't aware of how to say everyone is equal, and no one has authority. But that is not what he said. He indicated headship. He indicated parents have legitimate authority. He also, as we discussed earlier, indicated that overseers do have a role in leading the church, and the members should yield to them, and when they serve well they are worthy of double honor. They also are accountable.

Tall73 said:​
1 Corinthians 11:2-3 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (NKJV)​

That is not based on Roman culture.​

I disagree. It's just stating the Roman legal reality, and saying, but these relationships exist within a bigger set of relationships where God is at the head of all.

He says he wants them to know something, not that they already know something from Rome that isn't true! Rome didn't even recognize the two most important figures in that hierarchy! There is no Roman law or cultural practice that recognized the headship of God or Christ in any way.

He refers back to Eden, not Roman culture or law:

1 Corinthians 11:7-9 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. (NKJV)​


But if each of us is commanded to love one another, as Christ has loved us (the church), then that has nothing to do with headship.


But of course Christ was Head over the church. He loved, He served, but He also said He was Lord and Master. He humbled Himself, even to the cross. But he never became anything less than truly God, Creator and Sustainer of the universe. Christ loves the church, and we are members of His body. But you are not in equal partnership with Christ, your Head. He uses His power for the good of the church. But the church is to submit to Christ.

And just because overseers show love and give of themselves, does not mean they do not deserve double honor, as the text says. Because they must give account for souls, the congregation should yield to make their job easier, as the text says. They are more accountable to Christ. None of that is against love.

And parents are no less in authority over their children because they show self-sacrificing love towards them.

Self-sacrificing love is not opposed to headship or authority, or else Christ could not be Head. But He certainly is. And the Scriptures say the husband is head of the wife, as Christ is of the church. The Romans never taught about Christ, or the church.

Ephesians 5:22-27 . 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.​
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. (NKJV)​
 
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Paidiske

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It says submitting to one another in love. It doesn't say everyone works together to find a position where everyone is equal, and no one ever submits to anyone.
Submitting to one another levels the power gradient. It means one person doesn't get to impose something on the other person that they don't willingly choose.
It is not as though Paul wasn't aware of how to say everyone is equal, and no one has authority.
I would not say that authority is the same as control. You can have authority but not control someone else.
He also, as we discussed earlier, indicated that overseers do have a role in leading the church, and the members should yield to them, and when they serve well they are worthy of double honor.
But nor is that a relationship of control!
He says he wants them to know something, not that they already know something from Rome that isn't true! Rome didn't even recognize the two most important figures in that hierarchy! There is no Roman law or cultural practice that recognized the headship of God or Christ in any way.
And that is why Paul places the reality of human relationships in Roman society, within the bigger theological context. To remind them that the power of a pater familias is not absolute.
But of course Christ was Head over the church.
My point is not to deny that. My point is that if we all are commanded to love one another as Christ loved the Church, there is no headship in that for any of us.

Every Christian is commanded to "love one another, as I have loved you." That's not a command tied to headship. It's not an expression of headship. It comes into the discussion about being head to remind husbands that their power is not to be exploited, but to be emptied and set aside for the sake of others.
Self-sacrificing love is not opposed to headship or authority,
But it is opposed to one person controlling another. As I keep saying, if you can put forward an understanding of headship in which there is no dynamic of control, there is no problem. But you still have not put forward a clear and consistent explanation of exactly what you think headship should mean in people's day to day lives.
 
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tall73

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Submitting to one another levels the power gradient. It means one person doesn't get to impose something on the other person that they don't willingly choose

And you freely admit that you do so with your children all the time, despite the command to submit to one another in love.

And we submit to Christ. Yes, we should do so willingly. But even when we do not want to do so, should we follow our Head? Of course. And Jesus also was our example in that:

Matthew 26:39 39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” (NKJV)​

I would not say that authority is the same as control. You can have authority but not control someone else.

Control has been your word from the start. There is Headship without control, when there is no sin. There was headship in the garden, as I spelled out at length. But it did not become burdensome until sin.

We are praying that God's will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven. The angels yield to God's direction, and do His will. They don't see it as a terrible burden to submit.

There is authority without control. But there are also times when authority is exercised and does call you to what you may not want to do, but should, because God commands it.

The apostles commanded, through the Spirit. The NT is full of imperatives. You have said you were not sure if Paul spiritually abused his audience. Of course he did not. He exercised delegated authority, with God as his head. And he desired to use the authority to build them up, as God intended, rather than to tear them down. But he still held such authority. He preferred to appeal to Philemon, rather than command. But he still said he was confident in Philemon's obedience. He wished to be innocent of the blood of all men by preaching the whole counsel of God, day and night with tears. That included rebuking, warning, sometimes disciplining. That was not spiritual abuse. He was following his calling.

Overseers are to not Lord it over the flock, but the congregation is still called to yield.

And Paul could still say to Titus to rebuke the Cretans sharply:

Titus 1:10-13 10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, (NKJV)​

You have stated that to say to someone that they have to obey, because the Scriptures indicate such, is spiritual abuse. Of course it is not spiritual abuse to point out to someone that if they do such things, they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Paul was not spiritually abusing. He was discharging his duty.

It would not be spiritual abuse for Eli to keep his children from profane wickedness. It would be discharging his duty. But he did not do his duty, and was held accountable.

It would not have been spiritual abuse for Adam to turn Eve from transgression. But he did not do so, and transgressed as well, and he was singled out in Romans 5 as the one man who brought sin and death into the world. He was held accountable. But Christ restored what Adam lost. Christ not only loved, and gave Himself, but also rebuked, also warned, also was faithful to His duty and submitted to the will of the Father.

There is no conflict between love and authority. And it is not real love or leadership to refuse to call people to repentance, or to rebuke, or to say something that might not be what they want to do, but is what God calls them to do.

that is why Paul places the reality of human relationships in Roman society, within the bigger theological context. To remind them that the power of a pater familias is not absolute.

He didn't need to tell the Christians not to kill their wives and expose their infants! He did though tell them that husbands are head, wives should submit, children should obey, fathers should not exasperate, but that all should be done in the love of Christ. But that does not rule out headship.

If he wanted to say Rome claims you have headship, but you don't, he would have. He did not say that. He said exercise headship as does your Head.


But of course Christ was Head over the church.​
My point is not to deny that. My point is that if we all are commanded to love one another as Christ loved the Church, there is no headship in that for any of us.

That is your saying, but not that of the text. Christ was head of the church. And He says the husband is head of the wife.

Christ LOVED the church. That did not make him less of its Head.

Just as an overseer should not seek to lord it over the flock, so husband should not seek to do so over the wife. But the husband is still called to headship, and accountability, even in the way which he exercises that headship.

When Joshua says as for me, and my house, we will serve the Lord, that is headship--not Roman, but headship. He was directing his houshold to the things of the Lord. And there is no indication that his family resisted that. They had seen him submit to the authority of Moses, and ultimately of God, throughout his whole life.


Every Christian is commanded to "love one another, as I have loved you." That's not a command tied to headship.
Of course it is, because the one who loved them was their Head. And they followed HIs commands. And He was sending His disciples, whom He had loved, with authority. They had seen what real loving authority looked like, and now they were to do the same. This is not Spiritual abuse. This is the Head, who has all authority commanding His disciples to teach people to observe all things He commanded them.

Matthew 28:18-20 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. (NKJV)​


It's not an expression of headship. It comes into the discussion about being head to remind husbands that their power is not to be exploited, but to be emptied and set aside for the sake of others.

Their power is not to be set aside, but to be used as Christ did on behalf of the church, to present her without blemish. Christ exercises His power on behalf of the church. He did not use it to serve Himself.

Self-sacrificing love is not opposed to headship or authority,​

But it is opposed to one person controlling another. As I keep saying, if you can put forward an understanding of headship in which there is no dynamic of control, there is no problem.

If I can say that God never calls those with authority to actually exercise it according to HIs will? Why would I say that?

Did God commend Eli for "not controlling" his sons? Definitely not.

And as I said, in the garden, there was no need for control. In heaven where God's will is done, there is no need of control.

In this sinful earth there is still at times, need for us to all be rebuked, corrected, to submit, to the headship of Christ. And He sometimes uses authorities in that work.


But you still have not put forward a clear and consistent explanation of exactly what you think headship should mean in people's day to day lives.

I have posted many Scriptures, discussed how it played out in my situation. etc.

But if you cannot see how Jesus was both Head and lived out sacrificial love, while still exercising all authority, then how will you see that the husband is called to headship that is self-sacrificing, still having authority, but using it on behalf of his wife and family?

And not because of Rome. But because we are called to imitage our Head, Christ.
 
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And you freely admit that you do so with your children all the time, despite the command to submit to one another in love.
Yes, because that is necessary for children. A necessity that does not extend to a competent adult.
Control has been your word from the start. There is Headship without control, when there is no sin.
Great. So, what does that look like? How is it practiced? How does a husband practice headship while refraining from any dynamic of control? How does a wife submit without that turning into a dynamic of control? What does it mean for decision making in the household? And - perhaps most importantly - how does any of that differ from an equal partnership?

I have said, all along, there is no problem with headship without control. But I have never, ever seen anyone advocate for a form of headship/submission that does not involve a control dynamic; so I have asked you to put that forward. And you have not answered that question.
But there are also times when authority is exercised and does call you to what you may not want to do, but should, because God commands it.
It's one thing to call someone to something; it's another thing to enforce it. It's the enforcement that becomes a problem.
You have said you were not sure if Paul spiritually abused his audience. Of course he did not.
I think there are times where it's a fair question. Paul did not always express himself in an exemplary manner.
Overseers are to not Lord it over the flock, but the congregation is still called to yield.
In a sense, and to a degree. But leaders in the church have absolutely no right to try to control the church members. None. And when we do, grave harm results.
You have stated that to say to someone that they have to obey, because the Scriptures indicate such, is spiritual abuse.
To attempt to coerce someone into a course of action, by using Scripture to do so, is absolutely spiritual abuse. We can point out a Scripture; we can invite someone to reflect on it; we can encourage them to consider a particular perspective on what it means. But at the end of the day, their response to that Scripture is not ours to dictate.
There is no conflict between love and authority.
But authority is not control. And there is a conflict between love and control (beyond what is necessary for those who are not competent to manage themselves).
He didn't need to tell the Christians not to kill their wives and expose their infants!
But he did need to tell them to love their wives, to submit to them (within a dynamic of mutual submission), to serve them. Because that was not the cultural norm.
That is your saying, but not that of the text.
It's simple logic. Husbands are not the only ones to love as Christ loved the Church; that is for all of us to do. It is not a characteristic peculiar to headship.
Of course it is, because the one who loved them was their Head.
My point is, it's not a command only for those who have headship. It's not something that makes what a husband does different from what a wife does. It's for all of us.
Their power is not to be set aside,
I was thinking of Philippians 2:7; the self-emptying of Christ, the setting aside of his divine power in order to take on a human existence. It's that self-emptying, that self-lowering, as it were, that husbands are being exhorted to.
If I can say that God never calls those with authority to actually exercise it according to HIs will? Why would I say that?
Authority is not control. As a priest I have authority; I also have a profound responsibility not to use that authority to control others, but to encourage, to equip, to enable, to serve them.
I have posted many Scriptures, discussed how it played out in my situation. etc.
It's all been very vague. In particular, I have not seen you spell out what control a husband can rightly have, or not have, in your view. At times you seem to be saying he needs no control, at other times you seem to be saying there is nothing he can't control. You react defensively to any suggestion that the control might be abusive, but you don't set limits on his control.

I actually have no clear idea of exactly what you're advocating for, in practical, day-to-day life, terms.
But if you cannot see how Jesus was both Head and lived out sacrificial love, while still exercising all authority, then how will you see that the husband is called to headship that is self-sacrificing, still having authority, but using it on behalf of his wife and family?
I do not see authority and control as the same thing. At all.

In the end, God allows us (even within the contingency of being created beings, completely dependent on God for our very existence) a degree of freedom. God allows us to make choices, even poor ones, and takes on Godself the price for setting right what we mess up. God does not act like a cosmic puppeteer with us, but gives us scope to have agency, dignity, and free will, and still seeks out relationship with us, even when we're not very good at that relationship.

God doesn't force us to comply, so why on earth would we think a husband has a right to?
 
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