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Supreme Court Immunity Decision

Fantine

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I am wondering whether Mr. Trump's conviction will give the less ideological members of the Court to take limits on presidential immunity more seriously.
I recognize two are unreachable, but last week the Court was evaluating the case based on their faith in the relative integrity of our 46 presidents.
They can no longer assume that to be true. We now have a convicted felon among the 46, who through aggressive defense delay tactics, still has three more serious cases pending.
I wonder if those judges who want to preserve our union will realize that integrity, now or in the future, can't be assumed, and that significant limits need to be placed on immunity.
 

eleos1954

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I am wondering whether Mr. Trump's conviction will give the less ideological members of the Court to take limits on presidential immunity more seriously.
I recognize two are unreachable, but last week the Court was evaluating the case based on their faith in the relative integrity of our 46 presidents.
They can no longer assume that to be true. We now have a convicted felon among the 46, who through aggressive defense delay tactics, still has three more serious cases pending.
I wonder if those judges who want to preserve our union will realize that integrity, now or in the future, can't be assumed, and that significant limits need to be placed on immunity.
There are appeals yet to go through and likely those won't happen until after the election ... we will see how it plays out ... who knows ... a lot of things can happen ... whatever it is ... we will have to "ride it out"
 
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Fantine

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As I understand it, the Supreme Court is supposed to outline limited immunity, which possibly could nullify some--but not all--of the legal accountability Mr. Trump bears.
It could result in modified charges in D.C. and West Palm Beach.
Georgia should not be affected.
 
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loveofourlord

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I am wondering whether Mr. Trump's conviction will give the less ideological members of the Court to take limits on presidential immunity more seriously.
I recognize two are unreachable, but last week the Court was evaluating the case based on their faith in the relative integrity of our 46 presidents.
They can no longer assume that to be true. We now have a convicted felon among the 46, who through aggressive defense delay tactics, still has three more serious cases pending.
I wonder if those judges who want to preserve our union will realize that integrity, now or in the future, can't be assumed, and that significant limits need to be placed on immunity.

not sure the fact that immunity has no part in that trial on any side might make them not push hard.
 
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Fantine

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not sure the fact that immunity has no part in that trial on any side might make them not push hard.
The 1/6 Federal trial in DC has everything to do with immunity. Does immunity allow presidents to incite insurrection? Ex-presidents who are now convicted felons?

And the classified documents trial...should a convicted felon be anywhere near state secrets that could be traded to rogue nations for hotel permits and more?
 
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Pommer

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not sure the fact that immunity has no part in that trial on any side might make them not push hard.
To which of Trump’s four (one realized and three “pending”), trials were you referring to?
Thanks.
 
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loveofourlord

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Yeah, okay, yeah the immunity thing wouldn’t affect that trial. You are correct.
maybe I missread, but it sounded like OP was suggesting that THIS trial was going to make the immunity question really important more so now, and was just pointing out that it shouldn'a mttter NOW, in time yes, but no more urgent then before.
 
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Pommer

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maybe I missread, but it sounded like OP was suggesting that THIS trial was going to make the immunity question really important more so now, and was just pointing out that it shouldn'a mttter NOW, in time yes, but no more urgent then before.
Yes, the OP is pure speculation and not of a type I would rather opine on, at the present time.
The forged ledger to conceal another crime trial, that ended last week, isn’t affected by the Presidential Immunity case because he wasn’t President when he committed these crimes & he violated New York STATE law.
 
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rambot

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It is categorically INSANE to me that this measure is ANYWHERE near getting play given all the work the founding fathers did toward trying to decrease the likelihood of tyranny.

It seems to me that those Constitutional Purists on the right would be up in arms about this.....(and if Biden had proposed it, they'd have every right to be). But Biden isn't a criminal that needs that protection; nor does he regularly do criminal activities.
 
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JSRG

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It is categorically INSANE to me that this measure is ANYWHERE near getting play given all the work the founding fathers did toward trying to decrease the likelihood of tyranny.

It seems to me that those Constitutional Purists on the right would be up in arms about this.....(and if Biden had proposed it, they'd have every right to be). But Biden isn't a criminal that needs that protection; nor does he regularly do criminal activities.
Charles C. Cooke of National Review seems to count as a Constitutional purist to me, and he thought the idea that the President gets any kind of constitutional immunity--even to lawsuits--was completely incorrect:
 
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Oompa Loompa

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It is categorically INSANE to me that this measure is ANYWHERE near getting play given all the work the founding fathers did toward trying to decrease the likelihood of tyranny.

It seems to me that those Constitutional Purists on the right would be up in arms about this.....(and if Biden had proposed it, they'd have every right to be). But Biden isn't a criminal that needs that protection; nor does he regularly do criminal activities.
I don't think it is fair to say that Biden isn't a criminal when it is a know fact that the only reason for not being prosecuted was because they believed biden to be to cognitively unfit to stand trial.
 
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A2SG

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I don't think it is fair to say that Biden isn't a criminal when it is a know fact that the only reason for not being prosecuted was because they believed biden to be to cognitively unfit to stand trial.
That wasn't the reason.

From Special Counsel Hur's report:
However, for the reasons summarized below, we conclude that the evidence does not establish Mr. Biden's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

The reasons, in detail:
Nevertheless, we do not believe this evidence is sufficient, as jurors would
likely find reasonable doubt for one or more of several reasons. Both when he served
as vice president and when the Afghanistan documents were found in Mr. Biden's
Delaware garage in 2022, his possession of them in his Delaware home was not a
basis for prosecution because as vice president and president, he had authority to
keep classified documents in his home. The best case for charges would rely on Mr.
Biden's possession of the Afghanistan documents in his Virginia home in February
2017. when he was a private citizen and when he told his ghostwriter he had just
found classified materiaL
Several defenses are likely to create reasonable doubt as to such charges. For
example, Mr. Biden could have found the classified Afghanistan documents at his
Virginia home in 2017 and then forgotten about them soon after. This could convince
some reasonable jurors that he did not retain them willfully. When Mr. Biden told
his ghostwriter about finding ''all the classified stuff downstairs," his tone was
matter-of-fact. For a person who had viewed classified documents nearly every day
for eight years as vice president, including regularly in his home, finding classified
documents at home less than a month after leaving office could have been an
unremarkable and forgettable event. Notably, the classified Afghanistan documents
did not come up again in Mr. Biden's dozens of hours of recorded conversations with
the ghostwriter, or in his book. And the place where the Afghanistan documents were
eventually found in Mr. Biden's Delaware garage-in a badly damaged box
surrounded by household detritus-suggests the documents might have been
forgotten.
In addition. Mr. Biden's memory was significantly limited, both during his
recorded interviews with the ghostwriter in 2017, and in his interview with our office
in 2023. And his cooperation with our investigation, including by reporting to the
government that the Afghanistan documents were in his Delaware garage, will likely
convince some jurors that he made an innocent mistake, rather than acting
willfully-that is, with intent to break the law-as the statute requires.
Another viable defense is that Mr. Biden might not have retained the classified
Afghanistan documents in his Virginia home at all. They could have been stored, by
mistake and without his knowledge, at his Delaware home since the time he was vice
president, as were other classified documents recovered during our investigation.
This would rebut charges that he willfully retained the documents in Virginia.
Given Mr. Biden's limited precision and recall during his interviews with his
ghostwriter and with our office, jurors may hesitate to place too much evidentiary
weight on a single eight-word utterance to his ghostwriter about finding classified
documents in Virginia, in the absence of other, more direct evidence. We searched for
such additional evidence and found it wanting. In particular, no witness, photo, email,
text message, or any other evidence conclusively places the Afghanistan
documents at the Virginia home in 2017.
In addition to this shortage of evidence, there are other innocent explanations
for the documents that we cannot refute. When Mr. Biden told his ghostwriter he
"just found all the classified stuff downstairs," he could have been referring to
something other than the Afghanistan documents, and our report discusses these
possibilities in detail.

This is the part you seem to be misremembering:
We have also considered that, at trial, Mr. Biden would likely present himself
to a jury, as he did during our interview of him, as a sympathetic, well-meaning,
elderly man with a poor memory. Based on our direct interactions with and
observations of him, he is someone for whom many jurors will want to identify
reasonable doubt. It would be difficult to convince a jury that they should convict
him-by then a former president well into his eighties-of a serious felony that
requires a mental state of willfulness.
We conclude the evidence is not sufficient to convict, and we decline to
recommend prosecution of Mr. Biden for his retention of the classified Afghanistan
documents.

So, no. Special Counsel Hur did not think President Biden was "cognitively unfit to stand trial." He stated, clearly, that there wasn't evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, and he did not believe a jury would convict him.

-- A2SG, just so we're clear on the facts.....
 
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essentialsaltes

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Supreme Court rules Trump is entitled to some immunity in Jan. 6 case


Trump’s immunity must first be sorted out by lower courts, Supreme Court says​

Chief Justice John Roberts’ majority opinion said that the trial court will have to assess what of Donald Trump’s alleged conduct is immunized under the new test handed down by the high court.

“We conclude that under our constitutional structure of separated powers, the nature of presidential power requires that a former president have some immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts during his tenure in office,” Roberts wrote. “At least with respect to the president’s exercise of his core constitutional powers, this immunity must be absolute.

But, the chief added, not everything is official.

“The President enjoys no immunity for his unofficial acts, and not everything the President does is official. The President is not above the law,” Roberts wrote.

<I mean I guess this does mean if he orders the military to take out his political opponent, that's part of his authority as C-in-C. But to what extent does this affect the Jan 6 trial? I don't see holding political rallies or promoting fake elector schemes as official duties outlined in the Constitution.>
 
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iluvatar5150

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Supreme Court rules Trump is entitled to some immunity in Jan. 6 case


Trump’s immunity must first be sorted out by lower courts, Supreme Court says​

Chief Justice John Roberts’ majority opinion said that the trial court will have to assess what of Donald Trump’s alleged conduct is immunized under the new test handed down by the high court.

“We conclude that under our constitutional structure of separated powers, the nature of presidential power requires that a former president have some immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts during his tenure in office,” Roberts wrote. “At least with respect to the president’s exercise of his core constitutional powers, this immunity must be absolute.

But, the chief added, not everything is official.

“The President enjoys no immunity for his unofficial acts, and not everything the President does is official. The President is not above the law,” Roberts wrote.

I'm kind of okay with this, depending on how expansive "official acts" are determined to be.

<I mean I guess this does mean if he orders the military to take out his political opponent, that's part of his authority as C-in-C. But to what extent does this affect the Jan 6 trial? I don't see holding political rallies or promoting fake elector schemes as official duties outlined in the Constitution.>
I don't even see taking out a political opponent as part of his official duties, even if he appropriates the power of his office in order to accomplish it.
 
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probinson

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So, no. Special Counsel Hur did not think President Biden was "cognitively unfit to stand trial." He stated, clearly, that there wasn't evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, and he did not believe a jury would convict him.

And why didn't he believe a jury would convict him? Because he would be viewed as a "well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory" and to be convicted of a serious felony "requires a mental state of willfulness".

We have also considered that, at trial, Mr. Biden would likely present himself
to a jury, as he did during our interview of him, as a sympathetic, well-meaning,
elderly man with a poor memory. Based on our direct interactions with and
observations of him, he is someone for whom many jurors will want to identify
reasonable doubt. It would be difficult to convince a jury that they should convict
him-by then a former president well into his eighties-of a serious felony that
requires a mental state of willfulness.
We conclude the evidence is not sufficient to convict, and we decline to
recommend prosecution of Mr. Biden for his retention of the classified Afghanistan
documents.

It is abundantly clear that Biden's cognitive state was a considerable factor in the decision to not prosecute him, just to be clear on the facts.
 
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Pommer

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Supreme Court rules Trump is entitled to some immunity in Jan. 6 case


Trump’s immunity must first be sorted out by lower courts, Supreme Court says​

Chief Justice John Roberts’ majority opinion said that the trial court will have to assess what of Donald Trump’s alleged conduct is immunized under the new test handed down by the high court.

“We conclude that under our constitutional structure of separated powers, the nature of presidential power requires that a former president have some immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts during his tenure in office,” Roberts wrote. “At least with respect to the president’s exercise of his core constitutional powers, this immunity must be absolute.

But, the chief added, not everything is official.

“The President enjoys no immunity for his unofficial acts, and not everything the President does is official. The President is not above the law,” Roberts wrote.

<I mean I guess this does mean if he orders the military to take out his political opponent, that's part of his authority as C-in-C. But to what extent does this affect the Jan 6 trial? I don't see holding political rallies or promoting fake elector schemes as official duties outlined in the Constitution.>
This is a decent ruling, Mister Trump didn’t get enough “due process”; all the district court has to do is determine if inviting some of “we the people” to protest an Official Proceeding of Congress is within the scope of a President’s purview…or not.
And then another trip up through the courts with a final decision sometime in the 2030s by SCOTUS (with Trump losing in a 11-4 ruling).
 
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wing2000

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I have not read the ruling yet, but be honest, does anyone think a President should be immune from carrying out acts that are crimes under criminal law?

<excerpt from the dissent opinions>

“Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune,” Sotomayor wrote.
“Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune.
Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune.”

Sotomayor added: “The relationship between the President and the people he serves has shifted irrevocably. In every use of official power, the President is now a king above the law.”

Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson was more measured, warning only that a president could now be immune from such charges.
“Thus, even a hypothetical President who admits to having ordered the assassinations of his political rivals or critics … or one who indisputably instigates an unsuccessful coup … has a fair shot at getting immunity under the majority’s new Presidential accountability model,” Jackson wrote.

 
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wing2000

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This is a decent ruling, Mister Trump didn’t get enough “due process”; all the district court has to do is determine if inviting some of “we the people” to protest an Official Proceeding of Congress is within the scope of a President’s purview…or not.
And then another trip up through the courts with a final decision sometime in the 2030s by SCOTUS (with Trump losing in a 11-4 ruling).

Trump will probably die naturally before this case is adjudicated (assuming he doesn't become President and pardons himself). The court has opened the door for years of appeals.
 
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