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Dems want a ‘democracy’ where the majority lords it over everyone else.

Brihaha

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If a republican nominee ever won the popular vote but lost the presidency due to the electoral college, then America might see the need to eliminate the EC. Right now it seems a huge advantage to their party so they will fight to keep the electoral college in place. Can you imagine Donald Trump’s outrage if he actually won the popular vote but lost the electoral college? He would come undone. They'd be forced to lock him up!
 
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keith99

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I largely agree, just that I see the Electoral College as one more "road block." The fact remains, people tend to think that voting for a third party candidate is "wasting their vote," in large part because of the Electoral College (where if you don't vote for the winner in your state, your vote has no power), regardless of who wins the Presidency.
Which shows that many people are fools. If one is in a 'safe' state, safe for either side, then it makes sense to vote third party if you do not like either major party candidate. Your vote was already 'wasted'.

Without the electoral college every vote in every state is like the votes in a swing state. Your vote counts and voting for a third party is wasting it. At least if one sees a difference between the major party candidates.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Map with size proportional to population. This is "real Americans" not "real acreage".

1719158869885.png
 
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Hans Blaster

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But that's not any different from any other election. What you described applies just as much to the governor, Senator, or (if your state has elections for them) State Supreme Court Justice elections: "If you don't vote for the winner in your state, your vote has no power". Swap out "state" for "district" and you described the House of Representatives and all of the state legislatures. There's nothing different about the electoral college here.

Within a single electoral unit (and for simplicity only considering two candidates) all votes for the losing candidate are forcing the winner to have more votes than your candidate. When you side is down 40% to 60% you lose and the other side gets the position. That's just reality. It works the same for the EC, but the prize is only the EC votes from your state, not victory in the national election. Because the presidential election is national the votes in one state are not enough (not even the top 5 states together), but the same state-by-state rules apply as when electing a governor or senator.

To take the example of TN (home to a poster in this thread), sure it doesn't matter if the vote is 60-40 or 62-38 or 58-42 for Senate, they still get stuck with Marsha. But for president, the same variation only fails to change the TN EC votes (always for Trump), it has no impact at all on whether Trump or Biden is elected to office. Without the isolating effect EC, those TN Biden voters could be countering Trump votes in other states so more Biden voters in TN would be useful in electing Biden. The same holds for Trump voters in TN, adding 100000 to Trump's total in TN in November will have zero impact on the final result because of the EC, but could help elect him if there was a national direct election.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Funny anecdote. I'm a child of the 80's, and I grew up in a mixed Fundamentalist/Evangelical/Pentecostal environment, all quite conservative. From K through 6th grade I attended a Fundamentalist Baptist (KJV-only) private school. Homeschooled 7th grade through the Abeka (formerly A Beka) textbooks and video cassette classes through Pensicola Christian College. And then my 8th grade year was at a different private school. I attended with my family a non-denominational church until I was 8 years old, after our family was kicked out we ended up attending a Foursquare church.

My education, at school, at church, and in the home was very conservative. A pro-Reagan, then pro-Bush (Sr.) environment. When Clinton took office in the early 90's, it was a VERY big, and very bad, deal.

That's the context, here's the point: In all of this I was told, over and over again, that because America is a democracy, that it is the majority that should decide what happens. That is, the majority of the country was Christian and conservative, therefore Christian conservative values and policies should be what Congress passes--it was the will of the majority, the will of the people. And not doing that was catering to the minority of secular humanists and atheists who wanted to undermine America's Christian heritage and values.

In other words, the staple of my upbringing was that the majority SHOULD rule over the minority, because that is the will of the people.

What is obvious to me now is that this rhetoric was useful only when the majority is "people like me", if "people like me" are not the majority, then the majority is now bad.

The older I get, the more I realize that it's always been about power. It has never been about consistent principle, it's never been about values. It's always been about power. It's always about keeping the "right people" in power.

The "right people" being "people like me".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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rturner76

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There's the deal breaker - "while also respecting the rules of the Constitution" Those who want majority rule have no respect for the constitution, or you.

"Two wolves and a lamb deciding on dinner "
Hmm, doesn't the Constitution protect us from unconstitutional laws? Maybe not all of the time depending on one's perspective but at least there is some kind of litmus test to protect us from dictatorship.
 
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rturner76

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Conservatives still espouse the Rule-of-Law, only it’s turned out to mean they want to Rule and the rest of us have to follow the Law.
True, and follow their law whether in the majority or the minority because they claim to be the people who put into law God's will. It really should be the will of the People in the majority that sets the standards. I have a feeling you may agree but I would be interested in why someone would disagree even if it's a projection
Why does Dune pop to mind?
Hereditary rule I would think though I am only semi-Dune literate. It's such a long book.
 
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KCfromNC

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Can you imagine Donald Trump’s outrage if he actually won the popular vote but lost the electoral college?

Obama was declared the winner of the election on Tuesday
after multiple networks declared he won Ohio, thus weighting the electoral map
in his favor. Romney was still leading in the popular vote shortly after midnight.
Trump called the Electoral College “a disaster for a
democracy … a total sham and a travesty.”
 
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Adam56

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Obama was declared the winner of the election on Tuesday
after multiple networks declared he won Ohio, thus weighting the electoral map
in his favor. Romney was still leading in the popular vote shortly after midnight.
Trump called the Electoral College “a disaster for a
democracy … a total sham and a travesty.”
America isn’t a democracy anyway.
 
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Brihaha

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Obama was declared the winner of the election on Tuesday
after multiple networks declared he won Ohio, thus weighting the electoral map
in his favor. Romney was still leading in the popular vote shortly after midnight.
Trump called the Electoral College “a disaster for a
democracy … a total sham and a travesty.”

Wow, those were the days. Donald Trump rooting for Mitt Romney? Lol
Thanks for digging that out of the dustbin of history. I forgot all about some of that stuff. Funny how Donald's view of the same electoral college sham changed when it ushered in the travesty of a Trump presidency. We're lucky to have survived that disaster. :)
 
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Belk

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America isn’t a democracy anyway.
America is not a direct democracy. A constitutional republic is a form of representational democracy so America is a democracy.
 
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Desk trauma

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In this context, America is not a direct democracy addresses the point.
And the "we're a republic not a democracy!" is a distinction without a difference as democracy in common usage is referring to the US version of that form of government.
 
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Adam56

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And the "we're a republic not a democracy!" is a distinction without a difference as democracy in common usage is referring to the US version of that form of government.
Common usage wasn’t relevant in this context.

Try again.
 
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DaisyDay

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There's the deal breaker - "while also respecting the rules of the Constitution" Those who want majority rule have no respect for the constitution, or you.

"Two wolves and a lamb deciding on dinner "
Pfft. Your minority rule is two wolves and a flock of lambs deciding on dinner.
 
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