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Republicans Need to DITCH tTheir Conspiracy Theories

Richard T

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Are there people who really think there's going to be a war? I find that concern to be a bit over-reactive.
I'd give it 50/50 for the next year. It has been escalating on four fronts. Israel, Ukraine, are already hot, Philippines and Taiwan both getting closer. Ukraine neighbors too are tense. What is to stop the progression?
 
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Richard T

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I don't sweat Trump the man. He would be lame duck from the get go. I thank you for the advice. It is wise to plan ahead. I don't even have a passport lol. I kinda understand that poster to whom I was responding, and my answer was somewhat in jest.
I travel a lot and look at visas sometimes. The Bahamas, and other island nations are attractive. Brazil also is easy for a time, I think one year with an extension. The problem is getting income unless you can work online, are rich, or retired.

If Trump is elected, it seems OK to me unless he is the fall guy for all the decades of sin and excess here in the USA. I have been thinking though about Trump being a possible King Saul type, in terms of God giving many believers what they want. I hope it is not meant to be a lesson against materialism and arrogance. I just pray God pierces his heart and gives him more compassion and empathy.
 
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FireDragon76

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Sure. I get that, but I was specifically referring to the case of the peculiar but still plural sort of political tensions we have in the U.S.

Personally, I wouldn't compare tensions in the U.S. to those present in the onset of the wars in Ukraine or Israel. It's not like that and people shouldn't talk as if they're similar.

Aside from a minority of people that spend alot of time online, I think the tensions are greatly exaggerated. Especially among the younger generation who are about to become the dominant demographic in a few years.
 
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ozso

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Aside from a minority of people that spend alot of time online, I think the tensions are greatly exaggerated. Especially among the younger generation who are about to become the dominant demographic in a few years.
That's a scarier thought than civil war.
 
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FireDragon76

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I travel a lot and look at visas sometimes. The Bahamas, and other island nations are attractive. Brazil also is easy for a time, I think one year with an extension. The problem is getting income unless you can work online, are rich, or retired.

If Trump is elected, it seems OK to me unless he is the fall guy for all the decades of sin and excess here in the USA. I have been thinking though about Trump being a possible King Saul type, in terms of God giving many believers what they want. I hope it is not meant to be a lesson against materialism and arrogance. I just pray God pierces his heart and gives him more compassion and empathy.

Christian Nationalism has become a heresy that's taken over many churches in the US. This isn't the fault of just conservative evangelicals, it has its roots in the Cold War, where many churches allowed civic religion to replace the Gospel.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Christian Nationalism has become a heresy that's taken over many churches in the US. This isn't the fault of just conservative evangelicals, it has its roots in the Cold War, where many churches allowed civic religion to replace the Gospel.

True, but I think it goes back much further than that and is a modern outcropping of the old colonial myth about "... a city shining on a hill."
 
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FireDragon76

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True, but I think it goes back much further than that and is a modern outcropping of the old colonial myth about "... a city shining on a hill."

That particular myth actually started during the Second Great Awakening. Early Americans, who had suddenly become religious in great numbers, had to find a theological explanation for this new nation. Because mingling a tax revolt with some sketchy Enlightenment philosophy just isn't going to sell as well as the notion that the Almighty personally founded your country as a new "holy land".
 
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Stephen3141

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CLAIMING that there is a conspiracy going on in some event, does NOT
mean that there is one going on.

Apparently some people have claimed that there was a conspiracy against
Donald Trump, in his hush money trial. The Department of Justice has
denied that this is the case.


Those who claim that there are conspiracies going on, need to find the
evidence that there is a conspiracy. This is the work that journalists
do. But Trump's supporters are not doing this work.
 
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Ted-01

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The Republicans need to DITCH their conspiracy theories.
There is no evidence to support them.


This attraction to EXPLANATIONS that seem to explain an event, but do not
carefully examine the evidence, is something that Christians should label
as GOSSIP.

Note that this type of gossip is very common in America today. I'm not
sure why. But I speculate that gossip does not require any of the due process
of carefully hunting for evidence, in order to carefully describe an event.

Note that Alex Jones made hundreds of millions of dollars, by spreading lies
about the Sandy Hook school shooting. He described it as a "Deep State" hoax,
that really, never happened. But it did. Still, millions of people liked to listen
to Jones spin his lies, while he was damaging the lives of the survivors of the
Sandy Hook school shooting.

You will see a similar system of urban legends growing up around the school
shooting at Columbine, by the screwed up kids Dylon and Eric. Try reading the
detailed journalism of Dave Cullen in his book on this shooting.


The urban legend is that Dylon and Eric were rejects of the high school social
life (they were not), who were into Goth and trench coats (they were not), who
were persecuted by jocks (they were not), and who planned the school shooting
in order to target the jocks who persecuted them (this was not their intention).

But the news media covering the Columbine massacre offered up these explanations,
without proof, and the student body at Columbine began to belief these explanations,
as did much of America. But, this was all gossip. The facts, point to a very different
reality.

In modern America, we have gossip outrunning facts. And this makes America
terrifically vulnerable to those who feed "explanations" out to the public, in
social media.
---------- ----------

It may seem emotionally appealing for Americans to hear someone say "The Justice
Department unfairly tried and convicted me. And if they can do this to me, then they
can do this to anyone in America."

There is no basis in fact for the story that the Justice department is persecuting
Trump. That is a conspiracy theory. Just as it is a conspiracy theory that the 2020
election was stolen from Trump, through systematic fraud.

Trump has not produced evidence that his conspiracy theories are true.
And until he does, Christians should not be embracing them.
I'm not sure what "definition" of "conspiracy theory" is actually being discussed here. So, I was wondering if you could try to explain your view on what it is and is not?

In your Columbine example, it seems as if you're saying that the "media" perpetuated a myth... which would seem to me like that alone might be conspiratorial, wouldn't it? I mean, all of the media outlets carrying the same false narrative would take either some sort of collusion or at least an unintentional agreement to present inaccuracies as though they were commonly understood as facts.

If the government or any authoritative agency hides truth or misrepresents the "facts" that they do give, would that be considered a conspiracy in your book? When it's an authoritative agency's policy to hide, misrepresent, or obfuscate any matters that they put forth to it's "public", would that be conspiratorial? (e.g. the US intelligence agencies' classified programs)?
 
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Stephen3141

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Unfortunately, Americans currently use the phrase "conspiracy theory" rather loosely.

The working definition is a theory/explanation for some event or phenomenon,
the theory/explanation not being carefully demonstrated as true, but being
offered nevertheless, as an explanation of something.

From the standpoint of Christian morality-ethics, I would describe a conspiracy
theory as an explanation that has not been carefully demonstrated to be true, so
it has the status of gossip, or merely a personal opinion. (Believing something,
does not make it true.)

Typically there are multiple assertions/explanations that are involved. Some of
these "explanations" are invoked to (supposedly) demonstrate the truth of
others. (Many "Deep State" conspiracy theories are often invoked together, as
if one undemonstrated theory could confirm the truth of another unconfirmed
theory.)

Historically, there are classic claims of conspiracies, for which there is no rigorous
evidence. An example would be that there is a global conspiracy by Jews, to control
financial markets, for their own well being. This was a popular conspiracy theory with
Hitler and the Nazi Party, and also with many Muslim groups. Hitler appealed to this
conspiracy theory to try to justify his genocide of the Jews in WWII. Jihadist Muslim
groups appeal to this conspiracy theory to try to justify their common goal of killing
all Jews. Unfortunately, Donald Trump invokes the conspiracy theory that immigrants
into America are degrading America, degrading the bloodlines of Americans.
---------- ----------

I bring up the topic of conspiracy theory today, because we now have the technology
in the Internet and social media groups, for a few individuals to spread millions of
copies of an undemonstrated theory, over most of the countries in the world.

The popular "explanations" of who Eric and Dylan were (the killers at the
Columbine school killings) and what their motives were, are pretty much ALL
wrong. These explanations started with speculations by the news channels, then
were picked up and repeated by more and more online sites, and even by some
of the kids who were at the Columbine shootings. These false explanations
became a system of (false) conspiracy theories, that took on a life of their own.
And these (false) conspiracy theories could no longer be corrected by the careful
research of Dave Cullen and the FBI "profiler" who examined all of the evidence
about the Columbine massacre, even though they tried to correct the common
misunderstandings.

Worse, this (false) conspiracy theory was picked up by shooters in about 14
foreign countries, who claimed to be "inspired" by Eric and Dylan, and then
carried out school shootings themselves.
---------- -----------

For Christians, we should not accept conspiracy theories as true. We should treat
them as unsubstantiated gossip, until hard proof of their truth is presented. If this
is done, then a theory is no longer a theory, but a proven explanation/model.
SAYING that a conspiracy theory is true, is NOT the same as demonstrating that it
is true. Repeating a conspiracy theory thousands of times a day, does not make it
true.

The fair rule of law in America requires strict criteria on evidence that is introduced
in a court case. "Hearsay" or conspiracy theories, are not "evidence".
---------- ----------

I speak of Columbine, because it is an early example of a tragedy, around which
conspiracy theories grew, that were completely disproven by the evidence that the
FBI found. Yet, people continued to believe the conspiracy theories, rather than
the sound evidence.

The Sandy Hook shooting is an example of an internet/news personality (Alex
Jones), who picked up or created the conspiracy theory that the Sandy Hook
shooting was a "Deep State" deception, and that the shooting did not happen
at all. In denying reality, Jones traumatized the victims of the Sandy Hook
shooting, over and over again.

Some politicians have looked at how popular conspiracy theories can emotionally
manipulate many Americans, and so they are using them to get support. The
conspiracy theory that Trump won the 2020 election, but that Biden stole it
through massive fraud, has been promoted by Trump, along with all sorts of
other conspiracy theories meant to emotionally manipulate Americans citizens
that are going through some hard times (that may be real), or who imagine
themselves as the victims of discrimination. The big Lie, the Steal, is a
conspiracy theory, because there is no credible and relevant evidence of the
claimed election fraud. (Trump couldn't find any and present it, in the 24
lawsuits that he has filed, claiming massive fraud.)

That there is no such thing as climate change, due to the pollution of the air
from burning fossil fuels, is another conspiracy theory.

That illegal trespassers are taking the jobs that I want, is another conspiracy theory.
(Illegals take the lowest paying jobs around, that no American citizens want to work.)

That blacks are inferior to other "races" is another conspiracy theory.

That the presidency controls the other arms of the government, is another
conspiracy theory.

That the Supreme Court judges can decide that some phrase in the founding
documents of America can mean anything they want it to mean, is another
conspiracy theory.
---------- ---------

It is time that North American Christians thought carefully about how gossiping and lying
are incompatible with the Jewish and Christian command "You shall not lie".

And right now, systems of lying ("explaining") are running rampant, in some American
groups.
 
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Stephen3141

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Alex Jones, apparently, it trying to hide his current assets, so he will not have
to use them to pay damages to the families involved in the Sandy Hook
shooting, that he traumatized with his conspiracy theory lies.
 
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Stephen3141

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Note that the guy who planned a mass shooting at this concert, WANTED to start
a race war after the 2024 presidential election.

NOTE, with regard to conspiracy theories, many of those who plan mass shootings are
"inspired" by previous shooters, whom they respect. Or, they are inspired by popular
conspiracy theories, that are false.

It is a conspiracy theory that blacks are an inferior race.
It is a conspiracy theory that illegal immigrants will take jobs away from
Americans, who want those jobs.

Note that Arizona has a long history of people who are involved in white
supremacy ideologies, and who cover themselves with the language of
being "patriots" and being for "law and order". There is nothing about
law and order, that has to do with the intentions of this shooter.

Note that it is a common trait among psychopaths, to see themselves as
superior to all other human beings, and to be disgusted with the "stupidity"
of all other human beings. And this worldview, they use to try to justify
"killing people" or as Eric (one of the Columbine shooters) said "killing all
humans". These characteristics are discussed in the book "Columbine"
by Dave Cullen.

These motivations, are incompatible with Christian morality-ethics.
---------- -----------
 
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JustaPewFiller

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Sure, conspiracy theories have always been around to some degree. But, a good bit of the rise of conspiracy theories is due to social media, various "news" sites and shows and the algorithms that drive the content you are presented with.

In short, the algorithms guide you towards things you have already shown an interest in and they will continue to feed you that content. That is true regardless of what it is you have shown an interest in, ie a certain sport, a place, a hobby, a conspiracy theory, etc.

To leave politics out of it, lets say I like cake more than I like pie. I start reading articles on cake and I get more cake related things popping up. I start to read a few articles about how pie is bad. I get more articles on the evils of pie and the goodness of cake. I start seeing a more extreme articles about how the great cabal of pie eaters are plotting to outlaw cake!! I read a few of those articles. I start getting pointed to more and more articles about the evils of pie and pie eaters. Eventually, I start to wonder if some of it is true. Maybe I even become convinced it is true. After all, I keep reading and hearing that it is true.

Many "news" sites or tv shows are just as bad. After all, clicks or viewers = $$. The "news business" learned long ago that there is far more $$ to be made by stirring up your emotions about something than there is by just giving you the facts about something.

Discernment can be a rare thing these days, and people are buffeted with forces designed to make it all the more rare.
 
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Stephen3141

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I don't think that ANY clearly-thinking Christian would assert that it is
morally-ethically acceptable to embrace a conspiracy theory, that is built
on gossip, or appeals to other unproven conspiracy theories. BUT, I do
think that many Christians have not carefully thought through what toying
around with unproven conspiracy theories, could cause. (Nor have the
media companies clearly thought this through.)

I give an example in the area of school shootings. Take the carefully researched
book "Columbine", about the school massacre by Eric Harris and Dylan
Klebolt on April 20th, 1999. The author, Dave Cullen, quotes heavily from
Eric and Dylan's own "kill notebooks" as they discuss their plans and
motivations, and goals.

The author also heavily quotes the FBI psychologist who extensively studied the
remaining evidence, and described the character, motivations, and goals of Eric
and Dylan. This evidence came from 100 law enforcement officers, who were
working the case.

The problem with Columbine is that conspiracy theories grew about the shooting,
and that these conspiracy theories were almost all FALSE. It is a fascinating read
(I didn't read this book for the killing and perversion) to find how the "legend" of Columbine,
started and grew.

The first page of the Introduction is a diagram of all the school shooters, who
claimed to be "inspired" or following the influence of the Columbine shooters
[Columbine, xiii]. This includes over 50 shooters, who have killed over 300 people,
while claiming to be inspired or influenced by a legend that is false -- essentially,
a web of conspiracy theories.

As the leading FBI investigator himself says, he has tried to correct sites on
the Internet that glorify the legend of Eric and Dylan, but has been unsuccessful.
He has tried to correct their conspiracy theories, but found that Americans
like to believe legends about "persecuted outcasts", who are "bullied" by jocks,
and who eventually "snap" and exact revenge by targeting the people who
bullied them. Unfortunately, this popular conspiracy theory was not true in
the Columbine shooting, and Americans have preferred to believe the conspiracy
theories, rather than the findings of the FBI. (We see this same pattern appealed to,
by politicians who say "If they can do this to ME, then they can do it to YOU.")
---------- ----------

For Christians, who think that repeating conspiracy theories is a benign
preference, you should carefully consider that this sort of mythical legend
has lead to dozens of school shootings, in America and foreign countries,
by people who were "inspired" by the Columbine conspiracy theory.
---------- ----------

For those who are continually repeating conspiracy theories, and claiming to
be "persecuted" or "misunderstood" or the champions of the persecuted or
misunderstood, they are repeating a legend that is VERY attractive to people
who identify with being persecuted or misunderstood or wronged. It does not matter
if they are believing a false legend, or is they are imagining the "wrongs" done to
them, or if they actually have been wronged in some way.

Those who provide legends or templates in the form of conspiracy theories,
WILL FIND PEOPLE ON SOCIAL MEDIA THAT BELIEVE THESE CONSPIRACY
THEORIES. Alex Jones did. Tucker Carlson does.

A politician who approves of Nancy Pelosi and Mike Pence being hung by
a lynch mob, may have no intention of doing that himself. But in this
American society, where some people are out looking for legends or
templates that they can live out, SOME ONE WILL BELIEVE THESE
CONSPIRACY THEORIES. And like the Columbine legend, there are
dozens of people out there who are willing to live out lawless violence,
while quoting unsubstantiated conspiracy theories as a justification
for their mindless violence.
---------- ----------

Christians should have nothing to do with conspiracy theories.
The damage that conspiracy theories can cause, is MASSIVE.

 
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RileyG

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Amen. True Christians fear the Lord and live in His word. Not gossip or politics. I believe it's why the bible teaches us the gate is narrow and few will find it. We believers certainly won't find the gate with earthly gossip or by being busybodies. Great idea to create this thread brother. Thank you. Hopefully actual Christians might address this topic for our own growth.
Amen.
 
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Greater_is_He

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The Republicans need to DITCH their conspiracy theories.
There is no evidence to support them.

The Republicans need to DITCH their conspiracy theories.
There is no evidence to support them.


This attraction to EXPLANATIONS that seem to explain an event, but do not
carefully examine the evidence, is something that Christians should label
as GOSSIP.

Note that this type of gossip is very common in America today. I'm not
sure why. But I speculate that gossip does not require any of the due process
of carefully hunting for evidence, in order to carefully describe an event.

Note that Alex Jones made hundreds of millions of dollars, by spreading lies
about the Sandy Hook school shooting. He described it as a "Deep State" hoax,
that really, never happened. But it did. Still, millions of people liked to listen
to Jones spin his lies, while he was damaging the lives of the survivors of the
Sandy Hook school shooting.

You will see a similar system of urban legends growing up around the school
shooting at Columbine, by the screwed up kids Dylon and Eric. Try reading the
detailed journalism of Dave Cullen in his book on this shooting.


The urban legend is that Dylon and Eric were rejects of the high school social
life (they were not), who were into Goth and trench coats (they were not), who
were persecuted by jocks (they were not), and who planned the school shooting
in order to target the jocks who persecuted them (this was not their intention).

But the news media covering the Columbine massacre offered up these explanations,
without proof, and the student body at Columbine began to belief these explanations,
as did much of America. But, this was all gossip. The facts, point to a very different
reality.

In modern America, we have gossip outrunning facts. And this makes America
terrifically vulnerable to those who feed "explanations" out to the public, in
social media.
---------- ----------

It may seem emotionally appealing for Americans to hear someone say "The Justice
Department unfairly tried and convicted me. And if they can do this to me, then they
can do this to anyone in America."

There is no basis in fact for the story that the Justice department is persecuting
Trump. That is a conspiracy theory. Just as it is a conspiracy theory that the 2020
election was stolen from Trump, through systematic fraud.

Trump has not produced evidence that his conspiracy theories are true.
And until he does, Christians should not be embracing them.

It can be difficult to produce evidence when the powers that be are unwilling to release said evidence:

Here are the ‘two biggest takeaways’ from Merrick Garland’s testimony: Rep. Jim Jordan
 
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civilwarbuff

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The Republicans need to DITCH their conspiracy theories.
There is no evidence to support them.


This attraction to EXPLANATIONS that seem to explain an event, but do not
carefully examine the evidence, is something that Christians should label
as GOSSIP.

Note that this type of gossip is very common in America today. I'm not
sure why. But I speculate that gossip does not require any of the due process
of carefully hunting for evidence, in order to carefully describe an event.

Note that Alex Jones made hundreds of millions of dollars, by spreading lies
about the Sandy Hook school shooting. He described it as a "Deep State" hoax,
that really, never happened. But it did. Still, millions of people liked to listen
to Jones spin his lies, while he was damaging the lives of the survivors of the
Sandy Hook school shooting.

You will see a similar system of urban legends growing up around the school
shooting at Columbine, by the screwed up kids Dylon and Eric. Try reading the
detailed journalism of Dave Cullen in his book on this shooting.


The urban legend is that Dylon and Eric were rejects of the high school social
life (they were not), who were into Goth and trench coats (they were not), who
were persecuted by jocks (they were not), and who planned the school shooting
in order to target the jocks who persecuted them (this was not their intention).

But the news media covering the Columbine massacre offered up these explanations,
without proof, and the student body at Columbine began to belief these explanations,
as did much of America. But, this was all gossip. The facts, point to a very different
reality.

In modern America, we have gossip outrunning facts. And this makes America
terrifically vulnerable to those who feed "explanations" out to the public, in
social media.
---------- ----------

It may seem emotionally appealing for Americans to hear someone say "The Justice
Department unfairly tried and convicted me. And if they can do this to me, then they
can do this to anyone in America."

There is no basis in fact for the story that the Justice department is persecuting
Trump. That is a conspiracy theory. Just as it is a conspiracy theory that the 2020
election was stolen from Trump, through systematic fraud.

Trump has not produced evidence that his conspiracy theories are true.
And until he does, Christians should not be embracing them.
Democrats need to ditch their conspiracy theories that Republicans have conspiracy theories.
Its like being on a merry-go-round......
 
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Greater_is_He

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CLAIMING that there is a conspiracy going on in some event, does NOT
mean that there is one going on.

Apparently some people have claimed that there was a conspiracy against
Donald Trump, in his hush money trial. The Department of Justice has
denied that this is the case.



Those who claim that there are conspiracies going on, need to find the
evidence that there is a conspiracy. This is the work that journalists
do. But Trump's supporters are not doing this work.
Well if the Department of Justice has denied any wrong doing, that must be the case, then. After all, no one in our government ever lies to keep themselves out of trouble.
 
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Stephen3141

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The reason I started this thread, was the specific Christian and Jewish command
"You shall not lie." All Christians must be concerned about this command.

But, another reason I started this thread, was that many Americans (Christian and
non-Christian) have ditched any semblance of rigorous Epistemology (what is truth?,
how does one prove that an opinion/belief is true?), and formal deductive logic (which
is based on CAUSALITY).

When news organizations or religious groups keep promoting conspiracy theories, without
rigorously testing them for truth, then every societal structure that is based on truth, is
threatened. This includes the fair rule of law in America, the strict guidelines for testing
opinions/claims/evidence in a court of law before it can be entered "into evidence", the
method of Christian apologetics, and the responsible use of rhetoric.

The approach that asserts
"My opinion/belief is correct, but some super-powerful organization or plot has
destroyed all evidence that I could have possibly found to support my opinion/belief"
is an unverifiable assertion. In formal logic, such an assertion is called "unfalsifiable".

What is unfalsifiable, also cannot be proven to be true.
It is logically incoherent, to make such an unfalsifiable claim, in order to support
some conspiracy theory.
---------- ----------

Note that critics of Christianity make this sort of unfalsifiable claim, when they
assert arguments such as
"The text of the Bible is completely perverted. The Church has created a huge
coverup that has destroyed evidence that the Bible was written in the 3rd century,
the supposedly older manuscripts of biblical books are all frauds."

This sort of argument bypasses all the historical evidence of the biblical manuscripts.
And it denies the goodness of all the historical evidence.

It is the same when a billionaire, who has unlimited financial resources, cannot come
up with ANY credible evidence of fraud during the 2020 presidential election, YET claims
that there was MASSIVE fraud, and that some "secret entity" destroyed all the evidence
of the fraud. It is not responsible, to believe such a claim.

It is the same problem when someone uses the argument
"Everybody knows...."
when there are all sorts of people who would like first to see evidence of
whatever it is, that "everyone" is supposed to know.
---------- ----------

I also wished to point out TO CHRISTIANS that conspiracy theories have a
very predictable way of coming into existence (without sound evidence) and
being perpetuated by people who WANT to believe them. This is why I brought
up the phony legend about the Columbine school shooting. All the FBI evidence
goes AGAINST this legend, but on the Internet in social media sites, it is the
false legend that a large fan base continues to appeal to and believe and
perpetuate. Dozens of school shooters, have now appealed to this false
conspiracy theory ("conspiracy", because part of the legend is that there were
many shooters, and not just 2).

Conspiracy theories are a type of gossip, and Christians are forbidden from spreading
gossip, because it damages peoples' lives, and tears apart the People of God. And,
when the gossip is about non-Christians, it is still a type of lying, which is a sin for
Christians and Jews.

I am not speaking from the standpoint of a Democrat or Republican.
I am speaking from the standpoint of being a Christian.
 
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Niels

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Conspiracy theorists don't think they are embracing conspiracy theories. Rather, they are convinced that the conspiracy theories are true. Do you think telling conspiracy theorists to stop lying will be effective when they don't think they are spreading lies? In my experience, even suggesting that they've embraced a conspiracy theory is met with defensiveness. Not only do they believe that they possess the truth, but that everyone who does not agree with the conspiracy theory is gullible for believing the official story.
 
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