Why don't protestants make the sign of the Cross?

[Jamdoc]

What about the psalms? They were the same words prayed over and over? Most Jewish people pray with set prayers all throughout the day.

Is that “repetitive prayer?”

Psalms are songs. They are literally sung. We don't really sing them as much in English because well, they're songs in Hebrew, they sound like a song in Hebrew. When translated to English, sometimes they stop resembling a song. Sometimes you can translate them in such a way that they can be sung so sure, some Psalms do get sung as songs.
But originally, they were intended as songs, just like hymns.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Psalms are songs. They are literally sung. We don't really sing them as much in English because well, they're songs in Hebrew, they sound like a song in Hebrew. When translated to English, sometimes they stop resembling a song. Sometimes you can translate them in such a way that they can be sung so sure, some Psalms do get sung as songs.
But originally, they were intended as songs, just like hymns.

If you pay attention to the Psalms, they are all prayers. Some are prayers of thanksgiving, some prayers of sorrow and repentance, some ask for things like sustenance, good crops, protection from or defeat of enemies, for understanding. Many of us sing the Psalms at every service. Here is an example; Psalm 94 a setting from the order of Matins in Lutheran Service Book:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=230306144785223

We also sing the Introit at every divine service which is Psalm or a portion of a Psalm. It follows the Confessional rite.

 

[Cis.jd]

with no attempt to backpedal on what you accused me of. awesome.

I'm just trying to catch you up to speed with what i've been talking about

 

[Cis.jd]

But, He did. He said "After this manner" That is, "Pray in a manner like this" He didn't say "repeat this prayer" He said "after this manner" and then gave an example.

But the example he gave was a prayer not a formula for one like you suggested. All other translations also make it clear he is instructing them on what to specifically say.

That's what the Lord's Prayer is, an example.

No it's not ego. Jesus taught not to pray with a bunch of vain repetitions, and gave an example how to pray, and note it didn't have a bunch of repeats in it. It was simple, and short, and to the point.

Point flew over your head. The point was Jesus taught a short, simple and to the point prayer, without a bunch of repetitions in the prayer. I added repetitions to that prayer to give an example of what NOT to do.

The Rosary includes 53 repetitions of


It's said like a mantra, repetition to aid in concentrating on the 5 mysteries.
Mantras are a Hindu and Buddhist concept for meditation.
and well.. that's what the Hail Mary is, that's how it's used.

and it doesn't get much more "as the heathen do" than using a mantra and prayer counting beads to meditate.

I'm saying that if you are willing to insert words in jesus mouth, suggesting "vain repetitions" to be all "repetitions", just because you want all the catholic prayers to have some form of scriptural proof against it, that is out of ego now because you are forcing a false suggestion. The post you made prior had you reinterpreting Matt 6, you are suggesting things that are not implying anything to support your case.

This "mantra" talk you are making would still logically imply reciting lyrics from a worship song during your service, or even specific phrases, to even praying more than once for a specific request.

 

[The Liturgist]

It's said like a mantra, repetition to aid in concentrating on the 5 mysteries.
Mantras are a Hindu and Buddhist concept for meditation.
and well.. that's what the Hail Mary is, that's how it's used.

No its not. Mantras are completely different. They are typically devoid of meaning, and literally consist of babbling. Now, in Orthodoxy, we do not pray the Rosary because we believe using the visual imagination in prayer can be dangerous, but we do pray both the Hail Mary and also the Jesus Prayer, and indeed the continual prayer of the Jesus Prayer is the basis of Hesychasm. And this differs substantially from a Mantra, because a focus is made on the meaning of the words, whereas in Hindu and Buddhist use of Mantras, even in those rare cases where a mantra contains a sacred word, one is not supposed to focus on its meaning, rather, the emphasis is on repeating the sound as a means of falling into a trance, similiar to the use of drums in various pagan and animist religions, and in wicca.

In Orthodox Christianity, we are opposed to people entering trance-like states, and also are concerned that many Pentecostal and Charismatic practices appear to do this, because someine in a trance loses Nepsis, that is to say, spiritual wakefulness, and becomes vulnerable to demonic attack. We also object to the consumption of marijuana for the same reason; it should be noted that in Hinduism, nearly all Shaivaist saddhus smoke hashish to aid in their “meditation”, much like the Rastafarian use of marijuana. Indeed, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church not only prohibits the use of marijuana and khat, a drug popular among Muslims in the Horn of Africa which is a stimulant, but also strongly discourages the consumption of alcohol; strictly speaking, an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian should only consume alcohol in the form of the one can of church beer offered at the community meal served at the vigils on major church feasts, which last up to 24 hours.

 

[Valletta]

But, He did. He said "After this manner" That is, "Pray in a manner like this" He didn't say "repeat this prayer"

". . . day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!” Rev 4:8

 

[Jamdoc]

If you pay attention to the Psalms, they are all prayers. Some are prayers of thanksgiving, some prayers of sorrow and repentance, some ask for things like sustenance, good crops, protection from or defeat of enemies, for understanding. Many of us sing the Psalms at every service. Here is an example; Psalm 94 a setting from the order of Matins in Lutheran Service Book:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=230306144785223

We also sing the Introit at every divine service which is Psalm or a portion of a Psalm. It follows the Confessional rite.

Okay so you agree, Psalms are songs, and thus, they have repetitions in them as part of their structure, and that with the accompanying music, is a memory aid so that helps us to remember them and their content.
Memorization of prose is harder than memorizing songs.

 

[Jamdoc]

". . . day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!” Rev 4:8

Those aren't human.

 

[Jamdoc]

No its not. Mantras are completely different. They are typically devoid of meaning, and literally consist of babbling. Now, in Orthodoxy, we do not pray the Rosary because we believe using the visual imagination in prayer can be dangerous, but we do pray both the Hail Mary and also the Jesus Prayer, and indeed the continual prayer of the Jesus Prayer is the basis of Hesychasm. And this differs substantially from a Mantra, because a focus is made on the meaning of the words, whereas in Hindu and Buddhist use of Mantras, even in those rare cases where a mantra contains a sacred word, one is not supposed to focus on its meaning, rather, the emphasis is on repeating the sound as a means of falling into a trance, similiar to the use of drums in various pagan and animist religions, and in wicca.

In Orthodox Christianity, we are opposed to people entering trance-like states, and also are concerned that many Pentecostal and Charismatic practices appear to do this, because someine in a trance loses Nepsis, that is to say, spiritual wakefulness, and becomes vulnerable to demonic attack. We also object to the consumption of marijuana for the same reason; it should be noted that in Hinduism, nearly all Shaivaist saddhus smoke hashish to aid in their “meditation”, much like the Rastafarian use of marijuana. Indeed, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church not only prohibits the use of marijuana and khat, a drug popular among Muslims in the Horn of Africa which is a stimulant, but also strongly discourages the consumption of alcohol; strictly speaking, an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian should only consume alcohol in the form of the one can of church beer offered at the community meal served at the vigils on major church feasts, which last up to 24 hours.

Note that I'm a baptist and 100% agree that the gibberish "speaking in tongues" is very much a pagan mysticism like practice.

The hail Mary by itself is not a mantra.
In the format of the Rosary it is USED as a mantra. Something repeated to aid in meditation. It's the back to back repetitions that are the issue.

 

[Jamdoc]

But the example he gave was a prayer not a formula for one like you suggested. All other translations also make it clear he is instructing them on what to specifically say.

"After this manner"

I'm saying that if you are willing to insert words in jesus mouth, suggesting "vain repetitions" to be all "repetitions", just because you want all the catholic prayers to have some form of scriptural proof against it, that is out of ego now because you are forcing a false suggestion. The post you made prior had you reinterpreting Matt 6, you are suggesting things that are not implying anything to support your case.

This "mantra" talk you are making would still logically imply reciting lyrics from a worship song during your service, or even specific phrases, to even praying more than once for a specific request.

I guess it's a language barrier then.
I already said songs are different structure, songs are structured that way to help us remember them and remember their content.
and separate prayers praying for the same thing is not the same as 10 repetitions of the same passage in a row in the same prayer.

 

[Valletta]

Those aren't human.

It sure doesn't seem like something God forbids, to the contrary. Your interpretation, adding all of those qualification to explain away Jesus repeating the same prayer, is a manmade interpretation, and the qualifications you impose are extra-Biblical. I again urge you to take the time to examine the Koine Greek God-breathed Biblical text. What could it hurt? The Catholic way is to establish a personal relationship with Jesus through prayer. Mother Teresa was once asked how she accomplished so much. Here answer-- "I pray." Yes Catholics pray a lot, but prayer, and that incluldes praying the Bible, is pleasing to God.

 

[Cis.jd]

"After this manner"

"After this manner" is not followed by any formula but a word for word prayer still.

You were told the key word is "vain" but you are ignoring it, If Jesus was against repetition prayer then why is it that he he pray in repetition in Matt 26:24?

Matthew 26:44: So he left them and went away once more prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

Why is it in, Psalm 136: the phrase "His love endures forever" is repeated over and over again?

I guess it's a language barrier then.
I already said songs are different structure, songs are structured that way to help us remember them and remember their content.
and separate prayers praying for the same thing is not the same as 10 repetitions of the same passage in a row in the same prayer.

But you said in the beginning, in post 165, that it was wrong for the Jews to recite the Psalms in repetition, and that Jesus scolded them for doing so. Then after being given the example of Psalms, and how many Christian churches including the Baptist recite it or have songs with lyrics from it, now "this is different".

Not that in music form matters, but not all the Psalms are recited in the form of music. Psalms 136, Psalm 145, are all recited in the form of meditation. The famous Psalms 23 "The Lord is my Shepherd", is another example of a prayer that people repeatedly say when they feel they are about to die.

The reason why the Rosary is repetitive is because it is about meditating on significant events in the life of Jesus. It is not done for Christians to "get heard" but to internalize Jesus' life as told in the gospels.

 

[Jamdoc]

It sure doesn't seem like something God forbids, to the contrary. Your interpretation, adding all of those qualification to explain away Jesus repeating the same prayer, is a manmade interpretation, and the qualifications you impose are extra-Biblical. I again urge you to take the time to examine the Koine Greek God-breathed Biblical text. What could it hurt? The Catholic way is to establish a personal relationship with Jesus through prayer. Mother Teresa was once asked how she accomplished so much. Here answer-- "I pray." Yes Catholics pray a lot, but prayer, and that incluldes praying the Bible, is pleasing to God.

Praying a lot isn't the issue.
it's that the repetitions turn prayer from a conversation with God, into just repeating things you memorized.

as to the angels, they're not in the image of God, birds have repetitive calls as well, and God designed them to do that, but they are not the image of God.

 

[Jamdoc]

"After this manner" is not followed by any formula but a word for word prayer still.

He gave an example.

If I were instructing someone in a classroom about how to use language, and I said "say something like this" or "after this manner" I would give an example of a sentence or paragraph, not designed for you to just memorize and repeat that example, but to teach a concept of how a sentence or paragraph is structured so that you could create your own.
What is prayer to you? Is it communication with God, or a religious ritual? I suppose that may be the fundamental difference.

You were told the key word is "vain" but you are ignoring it, If Jesus was against repetition prayer then why is it that he he pray in repetition in Matt 26:24?

I've told you multiple times if you can't distinguish the difference between repeating something 10x in a row in a single prayer vs requesting the same thing on multiple separate occasions then we must have a language barrier or something.

Okay, so vain. Vain means it serves no purpose, it is "for show" explain to me the purpose of repeating the Hail Mary passage 10 times back to back that could not be accomplished simply by saying it once?

Matthew 26:44: So he left them and went away once more prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

I've already clarified that's not what Jesus meant by repetitions, He did not pray the same prayer multiple times in a row in 1 sitting. He prayed, got up, went out and woke up His disciples, still had an unresolved need in His heart, so He prayed again. Paul prayed for relief from an affliction he had 3 times as well, until the Lord answered him. After this he didn't pray for it again, it'd been answered. In each case that Jesus prayed, He left time between for the Father to answer. That is a difference. In having a conversation with someone, you might repeat something after you've given pause and there was no answer. But you don't repeat the same thing over and over again before you've had a chance for the first statement to be received and acknowledged (unless you're doing military radio calls which are repeated once after the initial message because Radio does often lose transmission so the other side misses it).

That all being said, Mary is not your intercessor and that is the other thing that bothers about the Hail Mary, it is a request for Mary to intercede for you.. 1 Timothy 2:5.

Why is it in, Psalm 136: the phrase "His love endures forever" is repeated over and over again?

That's a song, we've been over this.

But you said in the beginning, in post 165, that it was wrong for the Jews to recite the Psalms in repetition, and that Jesus scolded them for doing so. Then after being given the example of Psalms, and how many Christian churches including the Baptist recite it or have songs with lyrics from it, now "this is different".

Songs are different, the repetitions is for aid in memorization, so that you can remember, and think about the content of the song. That's why there's accompanying music often or it has a melody as well, it makes it easier to remember.

But what I was talking about was Jews were doing repetitive prayers, kind of like the rocking back and forth they do in modern days, that's not biblical that's something they picked up later.

Not that in music form matters, but not all the Psalms are recited in the form of music. Psalms 136, Psalm 145, are all recited in the form of meditation. The famous Psalms 23 "The Lord is my Shepherd", is another example of a prayer that people repeatedly say when they feel they are about to die.

I think all of them are meant to be songs sung in Hebrew.

The reason why the Rosary is repetitive is because it is about meditating on significant events in the life of Jesus. It is not done for Christians to "get heard" but to internalize Jesus' life as told in the gospels.

You literally just admitted to using the Hail Mary as a Mantra, as something you say to aid in meditation.

"as the heathen do"

 

[Jamdoc]

anyway I'll leave the thread, I've said my piece on why protestants don't do a tradition that's not in the bible and stated my position on Catholics practicing things that are not only not in the bible but advised against by Jesus... with a little hint towards something advised against by Paul too (1 Timothy 2:5), and at this point it's just talking to walls.

 

[Cis.jd]

He gave an example.

If I were instructing someone in a classroom about how to use language, and I said "say something like this" or "after this manner" I would give an example of a sentence or paragraph, not designed for you to just memorize and repeat that example, but to teach a concept of how a sentence or paragraph is structured so that you could create your own.
What is prayer to you? Is it communication with God, or a religious ritual? I suppose that may be the fundamental difference.

First, lets get this "in this manner" out the way. You are sticking to one verse in one translation, while ignoring all the others that have it as "when you pray, you say". Even Luke 11:2 on the same NKJV has it as "When you pray, say". You are picking and choosing a verse and ignoring everything else which is pushing a narrative and not the actual message.

If he was teaching just a format, that Matt 6 would be written in the same way you suggested in post #172.

I've told you multiple times if you can't distinguish the difference between repeating something 10x in a row in a single prayer vs requesting the same thing on multiple separate occasions then we must have a language barrier or something.

There isn't anything in the bible that has a limit for repetitions, because of that repetitions is anything repeated more than once. There is no language barrier but you moving the goal post.

Okay, so vain. Vain means it serves no purpose, it is "for show" explain to me the purpose of repeating the Hail Mary passage 10 times back to back that could not be accomplished simply by saying it once?

To internally reflect on Jesus' life.

That all being said, Mary is not your intercessor and that is the other thing that bothers about the Hail Mary, it is a request for Mary to intercede for you.. 1 Timothy 2:5.

Every single christian is an intercessor. And here we go with the typical beginner protestant reference of 1 Timothy 2:5, thinking that mediators are the same as intercessors.

That's a song, we've been over this.

Songs are different, the repetitions is for aid in memorization, so that you can remember, and think about the content of the song. That's why there's accompanying music often or it has a melody as well, it makes it easier to remember.

But what I was talking about was Jews were doing repetitive prayers, kind of like the rocking back and forth they do in modern days, that's not biblical that's something they picked up later.

I think all of them are meant to be songs sung in Hebrew.

You literally just admitted to using the Hail Mary as a Mantra, as something you say to aid in meditation.

"as the heathen do"

Songs are different because you saw the irony in it. You ended up changing your argument on this.

 

[Cis.jd]

anyway I'll leave the thread, I've said my piece on why protestants don't do a tradition that's not in the bible and stated my position on Catholics practicing things that are not only not in the bible but advised against by Jesus... with a little hint towards something advised against by Paul too (1 Timothy 2:5), and at this point it's just talking to walls.

Your contributions were great. Not only did you give an answer as to why Protestants don't do tradition, but you became an excellent example for some of the people I talked to here about this protestant mentality of "It's Catholic, not in the Bible" being the roots of cults.

This is what I am talking about on how certain Protestants don't realize their rejection of tradition (under the false claim that it is only catholic) has made denominations that eventually became more distant from Christianity.

Lets look at what just happened here

First, there is picking and choosing of translations and verses, while ignoring other gospels and numerous other translations. This is what the INC, JW's, Mormons, Unitarian Churches do. The INC uses the Lamsa translation with Acts 20:28, which they claim is a prophecy of their church because in the Lamsa it says "church of Christ (which is the name of the church translated to english)", never mind that every other translation has it as "church of God". Same thing was just done here in regards to Matt 6.

Next, the whole "everyone before us is wrong and we are the ones who got it right". Apparently, all christians during the early centuries are wrong for "not following scripture" because of doing repetitive prayers such as the Rosary.

So now, I would like you all to carefully look at how the similarities of these protestant objections to tradition are with these unitarian cults, it is through the protestants you can see how these cults eventually got their train of thought.

This is same "it's catholic. not in the bible" is the same argument that the Unitarian cults make in regards to Jesus' divinity.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

"In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"

I wonder why Protestants do not do this? I know that it's not made a rule in scripture, but I feel it's a part of christian history that should never be broken.

Regarding the first sentence, because it's not a Christian thing. It's a Catholic thing. Just like potlucks are a Baptist thing.

Regarding the second sentence, it's not part of Christian history. It's part of Catholic history. This guy sums up the whole concept really well in a short. This just came by my feed today. Perfect timing.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

And yes, my favorite breakfast cereal is "YOPIOS".

 

[RileyG]

Psalms are songs. They are literally sung. We don't really sing them as much in English because well, they're songs in Hebrew, they sound like a song in Hebrew. When translated to English, sometimes they stop resembling a song. Sometimes you can translate them in such a way that they can be sung so sure, some Psalms do get sung as songs.
But originally, they were intended as songs, just like hymns.

That’s correct. Some Churches still sing the Psalms, but in English.