Satan's throne was at Pergamum?

[tonychanyt]

Rev 2:

12“And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: ‘The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword.
13 “‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is.

Was Satan's throne at Pergamum?

Pulpit Commentary:

"The throne of Satan" has perplexed commentators. It probably refers to the infamous idolatry practised at Pergamum, which had a cluster of temples to Zeus, Apollo, Athene, Dionysus, Aphrodite, and AEsculapius. These all lay together in a beautiful grove called the Nicephorium, the pride of Pergamum, as the temple of Artemis was the pride of Ephesus.

They killed Antipas there:

Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

Ellicott gave a balanced comment:

“Where the throne of Satan is.” But why should this pre-eminence in evil be assigned to Pergamos? The answer is difficult. Some leave it unsolved, saying that in the absence of any historical notice, it must remain one of the unsolved riddles of these epistles.

No one knew why for sure.

Prof. Plumptre suggests that the general character of the city, its worship and customs, in addition to the persecutions which the Christians had encountered, may well account for the description.

Was Satan's throne at Pergamum?

It might have been at one time. In any case, the Book of Revelation was highly symbolic; I'd interpret it symbolically.

 

[Grip Docility]

Rev 2:


Was Satan's throne at Pergamum?

Pulpit Commentary:


They killed Antipas there:


Ellicott gave a balanced comment:


No one knew why for sure.

Modern day Location: Bergama, İzmir Province, Turkey

Actual Picture of the throne.

 

[AlexB23]

Modern day Location: Bergama, İzmir Province, Turkey

Actual Picture of the throne.

View attachment 349512

Am surprised why no one has demolished this throne yet.

 

[Grip Docility]

Am surprised why no one has demolished this throne yet.

It still serves a prophetic purpose.

 

[AlexB23]

It still serves a prophetic purpose.

Will this throne in the museum be part of the End Times?

 

[Grip Docility]

Will this throne in the museum be part of the End Times?

Only God really knows…. but I will just say that One of the 7 empires that is of the beast… IE reigned over physical Israel was led by a Global ruler for many years, in the name of a foreign religion… that has grown to hate Israel… and only fell around the 1920’s or so…. It also is the same empire that conquered Constantinople.

The final Beast Empire will arrive as a new form of the 7 empires… per Revelation.

Opinion

The bloodline of the ruler of that nation is still in existence

Oh… and they are waiting for a fake Jesus that didn’t die for peoples sins… and a New Mahdi… (Messiah) of their faith.

Oh… and their “Messiah” will reign from Jerusalem per their eschatology…

It could all just be a big coincidence.

 

[AlexB23]

Only God really knows…. but I will just say that One of the 7 empires that is of the beast… IE reigned over physical Israel was led by a Global ruler for many years, in the name of a foreign religion… that has grown to hate Israel… and only fell around the 1920’s or so…. It also is the same empire that conquered Constantinople.

The final Beast Empire will arrive as a new form of the 7 empires… per Revelation.

Opinion

The bloodline of the ruler of that nation is still in existence

Oh… and they are waiting for a fake Jesus that didn’t die for peoples sins… and a New Mahdi… (Messiah) of their faith.

Oh… and their “Messiah” will reign from Jerusalem per their eschatology…

It could all just be a big coincidence.

We will have to see, if we are still alive in the end times.

 

[Grip Docility]

We will have to see, if we are still alive in the end times.

Only the Almighty knows, for sure! Amen.

 

[AlexB23]

Only the Almighty knows, for sure! Amen.

Agreed 100%. This is why I stay away from eschatology, though it does seem like stuff is happening.

 

[3 Resurrections]

It still serves a prophetic purpose.

A PAST prophetic purpose. This throne of Satan was given to the Sea Beast, as Revelation 13:2 tells us. According to the ancient Roman Senate records, all the way back in 133 BC, the dying king Attalus III had no heir to whom he could pass his kingdom, so in his will, he bequeathed his entire Pergamum kingdom to his ally, the Roman Republic, including Satan's throne in Pergamos (which was pictured above in reply #2).

This historical information from 133 BC clears up several things. If Satan's throne in Pergamos (Rev. 2:13) was given to the Roman Republic, and the throne of Satan in Pergamos was given to the Sea Beast (Rev. 13:2), then that identifies the ancient Roman Republic as being the final phase of that Sea Beast's existence. This means the Sea Beast of Revelation 13 had a long history from ancient times.

This also clears up how the Beast from the Land in Revelation 13 was requiring homage given to the Sea Beast with the use of the "mark". That means the Beast from the Land was requiring homage to be given to the Roman Republic. In Rev. 13:2, that Sea Beast / Roman Republic had been given power and great authority by Satan (which turned it into the Roman Empire).

That throne in the Pergamos Museum in Berlin already WAS part of the end times for the nation of Israel before God destroyed it along with its temple. The nation of Israel, along with anyone else from any other nation coming to worship at the temple, was required by the high priesthood and the religious leadership (the Land Beast of Rev. 13) to use the Tyrian shekel which gave homage to Rome's gods and to the idolatrous city of Tyre with its profane images and inscriptions. This was totally against God's OT requirements against idolatrous images. But the high priesthood disregarded those OT laws since it was making such vast profits from the fees charged by the money-changers for exchanging any foreign currencies for the required Tyrian shekel. No one could buy or sell sacrificial items for the temple without using this particular abominable Tyrian shekel coin.

The required use of that Tyrian shekel coin giving homage to Rome and its gods was abandoned back in AD 66 when the Zealot rebellion against Rome was launched by the Zealots and they began minting their own coinage. No more "mark of the Beast" was required from then onward.

 

[Grip Docility]

A PAST prophetic purpose. This throne of Satan was given to the Sea Beast, as Revelation 13:2 tells us. According to the ancient Roman Senate records, all the way back in 133 BC, the dying king Attalus III had no heir to whom he could pass his kingdom, so in his will, he bequeathed his entire Pergamum kingdom to his ally, the Roman Republic, including Satan's throne in Pergamos (which was pictured above in reply #2).

This historical information from 133 BC clears up several things. If Satan's throne in Pergamos (Rev. 2:13) was given to the Roman Republic, and the throne of Satan in Pergamos was given to the Sea Beast (Rev. 13:2), then that identifies the ancient Roman Republic as being the final phase of that Sea Beast's existence. This means the Sea Beast of Revelation 13 had a long history from ancient times.

This also clears up how the Beast from the Land in Revelation 13 was requiring homage given to the Sea Beast with the use of the "mark". That means the Beast from the Land was requiring homage to be given to the Roman Republic. In Rev. 13:2, that Sea Beast / Roman Republic had been given power and great authority by Satan (which turned it into the Roman Empire).

That throne in the Pergamos Museum in Berlin already WAS part of the end times for the nation of Israel before God destroyed it along with its temple. The nation of Israel, along with anyone else from any other nation coming to worship at the temple, was required by the high priesthood and the religious leadership (the Land Beast of Rev. 13) to use the Tyrian shekel which gave homage to Rome's gods and to the idolatrous city of Tyre with its profane images and inscriptions. This was totally against God's OT requirements against idolatrous images. But the high priesthood disregarded those OT laws since it was making such vast profits from the fees charged by the money-changers for exchanging any foreign currencies for the required Tyrian shekel. No one could buy or sell sacrificial items for the temple without using this particular abominable Tyrian shekel coin.

The required use of that Tyrian shekel coin giving homage to Rome and its gods was abandoned back in AD 66 when the Zealot rebellion against Rome was launched by the Zealots and they began minting their own coinage. No more "mark of the Beast" was required from then onward.

The Roman Empire never fell. It increased in it's power all the way up to having a Warring Pope and a Spiritual Pope. Rome didn't fall and then re-rise as the "Holy Roman Empire". The Holy Empire of Rome was the very Brick and Mortar Mother Church, from which all Charity, Teachings and such forth sprang.

Who were the Knights of the Crusades dispatched to fight?

"The Crusades were a series of military expeditions that took place between 1095 and 1291, primarily fought between Catholic Christians and Sunni Muslims. The Crusades were launched from Christian Europe against the peoples of the Near East, with the goal of reconquering Jerusalem and its surrounding area from Muslim rule. The Crusades were motivated by a desire to rid the Holy Lands of "infidels," primarily Muslims, and were initiated, supported, and sometimes directed by the Christian Latin Church."​

Who overthrew Rome?

Fall of Constantinople, (May 29, 1453), conquest of Constantinople by Sultan Mehmed II of the Ottoman Empire. The dwindling Byzantine Empire came to an end when the Ottomans breached Constantinople's ancient land wall after besieging the city for 55 days.​

The remaining Roman Catholic Empire in Italy is no longer any fashion or form of "Rome" as an empire. It is merely the remnants of the "Mother Church", from which all Established Brick and Mortar Bodies, admission or not, have been born from.

Who has ruled over Israel?

1- Egypt
2- Assyria
3- Babylon
4- Persia
5- Greece
6- Roman Empire
7- Ottoman Empire

The Holy Universal Ekklesia is no more or less guilty of typical collection of believers sins than the Body of Rebellion against it that rebelled for some just reasons and some unjust reasons that has now become the origin of over 47,000 fractures in the Body of Jesus Christ.

The TRUE INVISIBLE Universal Ekklesia has always sprung forth and been defined by the following of Jesus Christ. As John reveals, the Anti-Christ Spirit can be defined as such:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,​

​

The Vicar (a minister in charge of a church who serves under the authority of another minister.) of Jesus Christ on earth is neither guilty of this, nor it's body of believers, within.

Per Daniel 11:37

"he shall not regard the gods of his fathers or Him [to Whom] women desire [to give birth—the Messiah] or any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.​

​

The Man of Lawlessness cannot be a follower of Judaism or Christianity, because both serve YHWH.

Per 2 Thessalonians 2:

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.​

​

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.​

​

The Man of Lawlessness is of a LARGE BODY of Believers that DENY that JESUS is the Son, from HIS FATHER... and are not Jewish or Christian.

This is biblical fact.

Judaism, Catholicism and Protestantism are all impossible matches to this "Religion" that the Man of Lawlessness represents and comes from.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.​

​

The Mark is defined in scripture itself. It is worn on head and hand.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Roman Empire never fell. It increased in it's power all the way up to having a Warring Pope and a Spiritual Pope. Rome didn't fall and then re-rise as the "Holy Roman Empire". The Holy Empire of Rome was the very Brick and Mortar Mother Church, from which all Charity, Teachings and such forth sprang.

You are not remembering the fate of Daniel's image of pagan empires and the clay (of the nation of Israel) which was mingled with the iron of the Roman Empire in the feet and toes. That ENTIRE statue was given a single blow by the stone kingdom (which was Christ the "chief cornerstone"). After that single blow to the feet, the ENTIRE statue fell and was broken into pieces all at one time, and like chaff, all of it blew away on the winds.

After the total SIMULTANEOUS destruction of the entire statue, the "stone" kingdom continued to grow steadily in size, and was predicted to one day fill the whole earth with its effects.

You and I are presently living in that time of the growing "stone" kingdom of Christ, which will never end. The statue is presented as all those empires being SIMULTANEOUSLY destroyed with a single blow because it wasn't really a picture of the actual political, governmental aspect of those empires that was destroyed. It was something which all those pagan empires had shared in common over the centuries - namely, the Satanic realm operating behind the scenes of government during those various pagan empires as "the Prince of this world". Satan had been continuously scheming to disrupt God's plans of redemption for all the nations of the world by attempting to corrupt the leaders of those various pagan empires as they arose to power one after the other.

But in one single blow in AD 70, God slew that Dragon and his minions, thereby ridding this world's governments of Satan and the devils' presence that had been operating behind the kingdoms of this world. What evil grew up in the world after that point has been solely the fault of fallen mankind itself and the wicked impulses of the human heart.

The Man of Lawlessness is of a LARGE BODY of Believers that DENY that JESUS is the Son, from HIS FATHER... and are not Jewish or Christian.

This is biblical fact.

You are mixing up the members of the cast of evil characters in scripture. And your facts are mixed up. The single Man of Lawlessness was then living in Paul's days, and was then being restrained from coming into power temporarily. Paul had told the Thessalonian church members in person who both of these individuals were. But both the Antichrist and his restrainer were ordinary men with ordinary lifetimes. Both men died in AD 66.

The Man of Lawlessness was a first-century Zealot leader named Menahem, and the man restraining Menahem from rising to power as the Messiah "king" over the people in Jerusalem was the former high priest Ananias ben Nebedeus before whom Paul went on trial in Acts 23. Once Menahem murdered Ananias, this restraint was removed and Menahem "exalted himself" over every other Zealot leader in Jerusalem contending for the role of Messiah over Israel. In retribution, Ananias's son then had the murderer of his father caught on the Temple grounds, tortured, and murdered in turn - ending Menahem's brief rise to power when he had presented himself in the temple as the "King of the Jews" in Jerusalem.

Per Daniel 11:37

"he shall not regard the gods of his fathers or Him [to Whom] women desire [to give birth—the Messiah] or any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.

Here you have mixed up this ancient character with the Antichrist. They are totally different men. This "king" in Daniel 11:36-40 was the Hasmonean king Alexander Jannaeus. This man presumptuously claimed the title of both high priest and king over Judea. His entire 27-year reign was consumed with battles, even against the Pharisees of his own nation, who reproved him for falsely holding both the high priest and kingship roles against the OT law. Alexander Jannaeus pandered to Rome, giving Pompey the Great a fabulous gift called "The Delight" which Pompey carried in one of his triumph processions in Rome, in fulfillment of Daniel 11:38.

 

[Grip Docility]

You are not remembering the fate of Daniel's image of pagan empires and the clay (of the nation of Israel) which was mingled with the iron of the Roman Empire in the feet and toes. That ENTIRE statue was given a single blow by the stone kingdom (which was Christ the "chief cornerstone"). After that single blow to the feet, the ENTIRE statue fell and was broken into pieces all at one time, and like chaff, all of it blew away on the winds.

After the total SIMULTANEOUS destruction of the entire statue, the "stone" kingdom continued to grow steadily in size, and was predicted to one day fill the whole earth with its effects.

You and I are presently living in that time of the growing "stone" kingdom of Christ, which will never end. The statue is presented as all those empires being SIMULTANEOUSLY destroyed with a single blow because it wasn't really a picture of the actual political, governmental aspect of those empires that was destroyed. It was something which all those pagan empires had shared in common over the centuries - namely, the Satanic realm operating behind the scenes of government during those various pagan empires as "the Prince of this world". Satan had been continuously scheming to disrupt God's plans of redemption for all the nations of the world by attempting to corrupt the leaders of those various pagan empires as they arose to power one after the other.

But in one single blow in AD 70, God slew that Dragon and his minions, thereby ridding this world's governments of Satan and the devils' presence that had been operating behind the kingdoms of this world. What evil grew up in the world after that point has been solely the fault of fallen mankind itself and the wicked impulses of the human heart.

He didn't commission Michael to KILL the devil, but cast Satan and His Angels to Earth... where the Holy Spirit of Christ, through Christ's BODY now Chains the Devil until the appointed time at which the remaining BODY that hasn't died and gone to heaven, will be SNATCHED. This will unbind Satan and his angles.

You are mixing up the members of the cast of evil characters in scripture. And your facts are mixed up. The single Man of Lawlessness was then living in Paul's days, and was then being restrained from coming into power temporarily. Paul had told the Thessalonian church members in person who both of these individuals were. But both the Antichrist and his restrainer were ordinary men with ordinary lifetimes. Both men died in AD 66.

So, by your assertion, Jesus Christ is PHYSICALLY walking on the earth which should be VOID of wickedness at this time. Where is Jesus 3 Resurrections? Is He in the Desert? Should I go there?

The Man of Lawlessness was a first-century Zealot leader named Menahem, and the man restraining Menahem from rising to power as the Messiah "king" over the people in Jerusalem was the former high priest Ananias ben Nebedeus before whom Paul went on trial in Acts 23. Once Menahem murdered Ananias, this restraint was removed and Menahem "exalted himself" over every other Zealot leader in Jerusalem contending for the role of Messiah over Israel. In retribution, Ananias's son then had the murderer of his father caught on the Temple grounds, tortured, and murdered in turn - ending Menahem's brief rise to power when he had presented himself in the temple as the "King of the Jews" in Jerusalem.

Please give me the bible verses that Proof this, void of commentary.

Here you have mixed up this ancient character with the Antichrist. They are totally different men. This "king" in Daniel 11:36-40 was the Hasmonean king Alexander Jannaeus. This man presumptuously claimed the title of both high priest and king over Judea. His entire 27-year reign was consumed with battles, even against the Pharisees of his own nation, who reproved him for falsely holding both the high priest and kingship roles against the OT law. Alexander Jannaeus pandered to Rome, giving Pompey the Great a fabulous gift called "The Delight" which Pompey carried in one of his triumph processions in Rome, in fulfillment of Daniel 11:38.

Again... Bible verses, please.... void of commentary

If you are curious to what the mark of the beast is, please look into scripture for what is worn upon the Hand and Head. Does scripture interpret scripture?

Post #11 stands unchallenged imo

 

[3 Resurrections]

He didn't commission Michael to KILL the devil, but cast Satan and His Angels to Earth... where the Holy Spirit of Christ, through Christ's BODY now Chains the Devil until the appointed time at which the remaining BODY that hasn't died and gone to heaven, will be SNATCHED. This will unbind Satan and his angles.

That war in heaven between Michael and his angels versus the Devil and his angels took place in AD 33 while Christ's body was in the grave. The ascending Christ on that morning after His resurrection was the deciding factor in casting "the accuser of the brethren" out of heaven's "courtroom". Legally, Satan could no longer accuse the brethren once the ascended Christ was inaugurated by God as our Great High Priest in heaven that morning, and His blood sacrifice was accepted by God.

After losing that battle, Satan and his devils were cast out of heaven down to earth for a "short time" only. That "short time" of Satan and his devil's existence ended with AD 70 and the death of the entire Satanic realm - which was Christ the stone's single blow to the feet of Daniel's statue that got rid of the Prince of the kingdoms of this world for all time to come.

So, by your assertion, Jesus Christ is PHYSICALLY walking on the earth which should be VOID of wickedness at this time. Where is Jesus 3 Resurrections? Is He in the Desert? Should I go there?

No, that is not what I have asserted. The Man of Lawlessness was one of the "false christs" which Jesus predicted would come in that first-century generation (Matt. 24:5 & 24). They were all pretending to be the fulfillment of Daniel's prophesied "Messiah the Prince" who should come at the beginning of Daniel's 69th week of that 70-week prophecy (in the AD 30 year).

In fulfillment of Christ's prediction, even as early as the book of Acts, there was the mention of an Egyptian who had gone out into the desert in an attempt to lead an insurrection against Rome, gathering many murderers unto himself (Acts 21:38). All these antichrist contenders for the "Messiah the Prince" role were eventually destroyed. Josephus mentions many more such individuals like this Egyptian who led many astray by their false promises of delivering the people from their Roman overlords. Most were from the Zealot cause which had been steadily rising in their influence in Israel during that first century.

Some of those "false christs" would be reputed to be in the "secret chambers". These were two specific rooms in the second temple called "the chamber of secrets". Anonymous donations for the poor were collected and deposited there, and dispensed anonymously at intervals. Once the temple was torn down, those "secret chambers" were destroyed also. Which means that Christ's prophecy concerning any "false christs" coming on the scene would be doing this before that temple and its "secret chambers" were torn down in AD 70.

Please give me the bible verses that Proof this, void of commentary.

Zealots were called "the Lawless" in scripture. Christ was prophesied to be "numbered with the lawless" in His death in Isaiah 53:12. In direct fulfillment of this, Christ was crucified between two Zealot thieves who had done insurrection against Rome along with Barabbas who had done murder in that insurrection (Mark 15:7 & 27-28 compared with Isaiah 53:12 - "And with him they crucify two robbers, one at the right hand and one at the left of him. And was fulfilled the scripture which says, And with the lawless he was reckoned.").

2 Thess. 2:7 and its "mystery of lawlessness" Paul said "is already working". The Zealot cause was already in full swing in those days. It was the Zealot "rebellion" (the apostasia) which broke out in AD 66 with the single Man of Lawlessness (Menahem) who was the first to get into that standing temple, presenting himself as the "King of the Jews" (a title truly belonging only to Christ Jesus).

Again... Bible verses, please.... void of commentary

You want me to quote the entire chapter of Daniel 11 which is a continual chronological record of ancient history from Darius and the other Persian kings up until Pompey the Great's death?

If you are curious to what the mark of the beast is, please look into scripture for what is worn upon the Hand and Head. Does scripture interpret scripture?

It does, and John wrote quite plainly that all the revealed prophecies of the future in the book of Revelation were then "at hand" for his own first-century generation. Ezekiel 12:21-28 interprets for us when an "at hand" prophecy is fulfilled, and it is fulfilled "in YOUR days" for those who are first receiving that prophecy. Anyone who had received the "mark" in those days by requirement of the Israelite religious leadership of the "Beast from the Land" had been forced to give homage to the Roman Sea Beast - and had paid a fee to the priesthood for participating in that requirement. This is what angered Christ so much when he whipped the money-changers from the temple grounds and overthrew their tables, accusing them of making His Father's house "a den of thieves".

 

[Grip Docility]

That war in heaven between Michael and his angels versus the Devil and his angels took place in AD 33 while Christ's body was in the grave. The ascending Christ on that morning after His resurrection was the deciding factor in casting "the accuser of the brethren" out of heaven's "courtroom". Legally, Satan could no longer accuse the brethren once the ascended Christ was inaugurated by God as our Great High Priest in heaven that morning, and His blood sacrifice was accepted by God.

I disagree. I believe it occurred after his ascension in Acts 1. The Holy Ghost of Jesus Christ had business in SHEOL that is recorded in 1 Peter 3.

After losing that battle, Satan and his devils were cast out of heaven down to earth for a "short time" only. That "short time" of Satan and his devil's existence ended with AD 70 and the death of the entire Satanic realm - which was Christ the stone's single blow to the feet of Daniel's statue that got rid of the Prince of the kingdoms of this world for all time to come.

If you believe that Satan isn't still at work within mankind... not only do you ignore that he is seeking to and fro to whom he may devour, but you are empowering him, by suggesting the EXACT same doctrine as the LITERAL church of Satan, that he doesn't even exist. If the feet of iron and clay... isn't a picture of The Clay (Humanity that are void of the Holy Spirit) and the IRON (Those indwelled by the Holy Spirit) that literally make up our very nations of the earth now... I don't know what else is. You conflate the Literal SECOND coming of the PHYSICAL coming of JESUS CHRIST with a NON SPIRITUAL event that took place in Preterist Arcadia... which happened, but is not the ACTUAL SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST. In-fact, this goes directly against Jesus' very teachings in LUKE!

No, that is not what I have asserted. The Man of Lawlessness was one of the "false christs" which Jesus predicted would come in that first-century generation (Matt. 24:5 & 24). They were all pretending to be the fulfillment of Daniel's prophesied "Messiah the Prince" who should come at the beginning of Daniel's 69th week of that 70-week prophecy (in the AD 30 year).

UMMMMMM.... The FALSE CHRIST will be the LITERAL Physical embodiment of Satan! I assure you, that hasn't happened yet. Those MIRICLES are not recorded in history.

In fulfillment of Christ's prediction, even as early as the book of Acts, there was the mention of an Egyptian who had gone out into the desert in an attempt to lead an insurrection against Rome, gathering many murderers unto himself (Acts 21:38). All these antichrist contenders for the "Messiah the Prince" role were eventually destroyed. Josephus mentions many more such individuals like this Egyptian who led many astray by their false promises of delivering the people from their Roman overlords. Most were from the Zealot cause which had been steadily rising in their influence in Israel during that first century.

Super Hard Disagree. The Wicked one hasn't physically walked the earth yet... let alone the ONE TRUE Benevolent one PHYSICALLY RETURNING.

Some of those "false christs" would be reputed to be in the "secret chambers". These were two specific rooms in the second temple called "the chamber of secrets". Anonymous donations for the poor were collected and deposited there, and dispensed anonymously at intervals. Once the temple was torn down, those "secret chambers" were destroyed also. Which means that Christ's prophecy concerning any "false christs" coming on the scene would be doing this before that temple and its "secret chambers" were torn down in AD 70.

UM... If the Time of the Gentiles is over... you do realize that you are saying that salvation isn't ? Has Jesus Second Coming style Superman Landed, Physically on EARTH in HIS FLESH, at the MOUNT OF OLIVES to set up HIS Physical KINGDOM in Literal Israel that He will PHYSICALLY RULE from? Zechariah 14:4

Zealots were called "the Lawless" in scripture. Christ was prophesied to be "numbered with the lawless" in His death in Isaiah 53:12. In direct fulfillment of this, Christ was crucified between two Zealot thieves who had done insurrection against Rome along with Barabbas who had done murder in that insurrection (Mark 15:7 & 27-28 compared with Isaiah 53:12 - "And with him they crucify two robbers, one at the right hand and one at the left of him. And was fulfilled the scripture which says, And with the lawless he was reckoned.").

I see lot's of commentary and no real scriptural MEAT. IMO

2 Thess. 2:7 and its "mystery of lawlessness" Paul said "is already working". The Zealot cause was already in full swing in those days. It was the Zealot "rebellion" (the apostasia) which broke out in AD 66 with the single Man of Lawlessness (Menahem) who was the first to get into that standing temple, presenting himself as the "King of the Jews" (a title truly belonging only to Christ Jesus).

Nope. HE ISN"T working MIRICLES yet. He isn't physically embodied. HARD disagree.

You want me to quote the entire chapter of Daniel 11 which is a continual chronological record of ancient history from Darius and the other Persian kings up until Pompey the Great's death?

What does it matter if you have interpreted it wrong?

It does, and John wrote quite plainly that all the revealed prophecies of the future in the book of Revelation were then "at hand" for his own first-century generation. Ezekiel 12:21-28 interprets for us when an "at hand" prophecy is fulfilled, and it is fulfilled "in YOUR days" for those who are first receiving that prophecy. Anyone who had received the "mark" in those days by requirement of the Israelite religious leadership of the "Beast from the Land" had been forced to give homage to the Roman Sea Beast - and had paid a fee to the priesthood for participating in that requirement. This is what angered Christ so much when he whipped the money-changers from the temple grounds and overthrew their tables, accusing them of making His Father's house "a den of thieves".

No. This literally denies Jesus Christ's SECOND Coming.... IN HIS LITERAL FLESH... and that isn't a positive thing.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You conflate the Literal SECOND coming of the PHYSICAL coming of JESUS CHRIST with a NON SPIRITUAL event that took place in Preterist Arcadia... which happened, but is not the ACTUAL SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST. In-fact, this goes directly against Jesus' very teachings in LUKE!

You are mistaking my beliefs on this topic. I believe Christ's words exactly in Luke 21:8-36 which described conditions in Israel up until Christ's physical, bodily return in a cloud with power and great glory, when the powers of the heaven (the "spiritual wickedness in high places") would be shaken (shaken and then removed from existence, as taught in Heb. 12:26-27).

Luke 21:36 tells us when all those described events that Christ listed from verse 8 through verse 35 were going to happen. "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

UMMMMMM.... The FALSE CHRIST will be the LITERAL Physical embodiment of Satan! I assure you, that hasn't happened yet. Those MIRICLES are not recorded in history.

Satan never denied that Jesus had come in the flesh with His incarnation. That is John's definition of an antichrist (1 John 4:3 and 2 John 7). The devils also believed Jesus had come in the flesh, and trembled with that knowledge. The single Antichrist individual man was called "the son of destruction". This "MAN of Lawlessness" was just that - a MAN - not a fallen angel. You are mixing up different species of created beings. Mankind has a terrestrial body. Angels have celestial bodies, according to Paul in 1 Cor. 15:40.

I see lot's of commentary and no real scriptural MEAT. IMO

The verses I gave to you describe how scripture speaks about the title of the "Man of Lawlessness". Apparently you didn't read them and compare them with each other. Mark 15:7, 27-28, which says the two Zealot insurrectionist thieves crucified beside Christ were a fulfillment of "the lawless" in Isaiah 53:12, and Paul's comments in 2 Thess. 2:7 about the "mystery of lawlessness" which was already working at that time.

Nope. HE ISN"T working MIRICLES yet. He isn't physically embodied. HARD disagree.

The coming of this Man of Lawlessness was predicted to be LIKE the working of Satan (it would be greatly deceptive for the public, but it wasn't Satan himself - just similarly deceptive). The Man of Lawlessness would have power, and perform signs and lying wonders. Nothing like miracles is mentioned here. And by your disagreement, you are completely denying Paul's statement that both this Man of Lawlessness and his restrainer were already present in the world, and that Paul had told the Thessalonian believers in person who both of these men were (2 Thess. 2:5-6 - "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now YE KNOW what withholdeth..."

What does it matter if you have interpreted it wrong?

My views on Daniel 11 being a point-by-point description of ancient history beginning with the Persian kings is shared by many, many commentaries. These have likewise noticed just how precise Daniel was in predicting the rise and fall of all the Seleucid "king of the north" rulers, and the Ptolemaic "king of the south" rulers and their activities and battles, marital alliances, treaties, and the manner of their deaths. It's astounding how much matching detail Daniel gave in advance of those historical events that we can read out in historians' accounts.

No. This literally denies Jesus Christ's SECOND Coming.... IN HIS LITERAL FLESH... and that isn't a positive thing.

I have never denied Christ returning to earth in a literal, physical, glorified and resurrected human body. The ascended Christ retained His glorified, resurrected body in heaven, so any return to this earth of necessity MUST be done while in that same glorified, immortal, resurrected human body form which can be seen and handled, just as the disciples did after His resurrection.

As for the belief that Satan and his devils are still in existence on earth today, scripture tells us otherwise. You just haven't noticed these texts which are sitting there in the scripture for anybody to read that tell us when Satan and his devils were all utterly destroyed by God.

 

[Grip Docility]

You are mistaking my beliefs on this topic. I believe Christ's words exactly in Luke 21:8-36 which described conditions in Israel up until Christ's physical, bodily return in a cloud with power and great glory, when the powers of the heaven (the "spiritual wickedness in high places") would be shaken (shaken and then removed from existence, as taught in Heb. 12:26-27).

Okay, if I misunderstood, I apologize.

Luke 21:36 tells us when all those described events that Christ listed from verse 8 through verse 35 were going to happen. "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

That hasn't happened yet. Are we on different pages here?

Satan never denied that Jesus had come in the flesh with His incarnation. That is John's definition of an antichrist (1 John 4:3 and 2 John 7). The devils also believed Jesus had come in the flesh, and trembled with that knowledge. The single Antichrist individual man was called "the son of destruction". This "MAN of Lawlessness" was just that - a MAN - not a fallen angel. You are mixing up different species of created beings. Mankind has a terrestrial body. Angels have celestial bodies, according to Paul in 1 Cor. 15:40.

Didn't he? He was the very executioner behind the condemnation of the Law. (Hebrews 2:14) He knew He was the Messiah and he knew that He was "God's Son". The accusation of the Law that condemned Christ was that Jesus claimed to be God. That was exactly what nailed Satan. He handed Jesus over through Judas under the idea that he was righteous by the Law, in that Jesus could not possibly be the very Face of God. Think about it. Only those who were revealed the matter by the Father, could know at the time. Jesus drives this point home, over and over. Satan underestimated God, as usual. Think of the verse... They would not have crucified the Lord of Glory had they known. 1 Cor. 2:8

The verses I gave to you describe how scripture speaks about the title of the "Man of Lawlessness". Apparently you didn't read them and compare them with each other. Mark 15:7, 27-28, which says the two Zealot insurrectionist thieves crucified beside Christ were a fulfillment of "the lawless" in Isaiah 53:12, and Paul's comments in 2 Thess. 2:7 about the "mystery of lawlessness" which was already working at that time.

They weren't. They may be a "type", but the things you say "have happened" are things that I don't agree have happened.

The coming of this Man of Lawlessness was predicted to be LIKE the working of Satan (it would be greatly deceptive for the public, but it wasn't Satan himself - just similarly deceptive). The Man of Lawlessness would have power, and perform signs and lying wonders. Nothing like miracles is mentioned here. And by your disagreement, you are completely denying Paul's statement that both this Man of Lawlessness and his restrainer were already present in the world, and that Paul had told the Thessalonian believers in person who both of these men were (2 Thess. 2:5-6 - "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now YE KNOW what withholdeth..."

It will be Satan himself. I assure you. If it happened, Christ would have Physically returned. There are many anti-Christ's. There is yet to be the final capital A version.

My views on Daniel 11 being a point-by-point description of ancient history beginning with the Persian kings is shared by many, many commentaries. These have likewise noticed just how precise Daniel was in predicting the rise and fall of all the Seleucid "king of the north" rulers, and the Ptolemaic "king of the south" rulers and their activities and battles, marital alliances, treaties, and the manner of their deaths. It's astounding how much matching detail Daniel gave in advance of those historical events that we can read out in historians' accounts.

I do know that the detail is very incredible. Alexander the great is a fine example. Yet, there's more to come, for certain.

I have never denied Christ returning to earth in a literal, physical, glorified and resurrected human body. The ascended Christ retained His glorified, resurrected body in heaven, so any return to this earth of necessity MUST be done while in that same glorified, immortal, resurrected human body form which can be seen and handled, just as the disciples did after His resurrection.

Okay... sorry for misunderstanding.

 

[Grip Docility]

You are mistaking my beliefs on this topic. I believe Christ's words exactly in Luke 21:8-36 which described conditions in Israel up until Christ's physical, bodily return in a cloud with power and great glory, when the powers of the heaven (the "spiritual wickedness in high places") would be shaken (shaken and then removed from existence, as taught in Heb. 12:26-27).

Luke 21:36 tells us when all those described events that Christ listed from verse 8 through verse 35 were going to happen. "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."


Satan never denied that Jesus had come in the flesh with His incarnation. That is John's definition of an antichrist (1 John 4:3 and 2 John 7). The devils also believed Jesus had come in the flesh, and trembled with that knowledge. The single Antichrist individual man was called "the son of destruction". This "MAN of Lawlessness" was just that - a MAN - not a fallen angel. You are mixing up different species of created beings. Mankind has a terrestrial body. Angels have celestial bodies, according to Paul in 1 Cor. 15:40.


The verses I gave to you describe how scripture speaks about the title of the "Man of Lawlessness". Apparently you didn't read them and compare them with each other. Mark 15:7, 27-28, which says the two Zealot insurrectionist thieves crucified beside Christ were a fulfillment of "the lawless" in Isaiah 53:12, and Paul's comments in 2 Thess. 2:7 about the "mystery of lawlessness" which was already working at that time.


The coming of this Man of Lawlessness was predicted to be LIKE the working of Satan (it would be greatly deceptive for the public, but it wasn't Satan himself - just similarly deceptive). The Man of Lawlessness would have power, and perform signs and lying wonders. Nothing like miracles is mentioned here. And by your disagreement, you are completely denying Paul's statement that both this Man of Lawlessness and his restrainer were already present in the world, and that Paul had told the Thessalonian believers in person who both of these men were (2 Thess. 2:5-6 - "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now YE KNOW what withholdeth..."

My views on Daniel 11 being a point-by-point description of ancient history beginning with the Persian kings is shared by many, many commentaries. These have likewise noticed just how precise Daniel was in predicting the rise and fall of all the Seleucid "king of the north" rulers, and the Ptolemaic "king of the south" rulers and their activities and battles, marital alliances, treaties, and the manner of their deaths. It's astounding how much matching detail Daniel gave in advance of those historical events that we can read out in historians' accounts.

I have never denied Christ returning to earth in a literal, physical, glorified and resurrected human body. The ascended Christ retained His glorified, resurrected body in heaven, so any return to this earth of necessity MUST be done while in that same glorified, immortal, resurrected human body form which can be seen and handled, just as the disciples did after His resurrection.

As for the belief that Satan and his devils are still in existence on earth today, scripture tells us otherwise. You just haven't noticed these texts which are sitting there in the scripture for anybody to read that tell us when Satan and his devils were all utterly destroyed by God.

By the way, I will tell you that I in no way claim to know the exact, correct answers to all of this. You could be correct and I could be dead wrong. I got caught up in discussion. We serve the same Jesus and are siblings. Sorry for not stating this sooner.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you!

 

[3 Resurrections]

That hasn't happened yet. Are we on different pages here?

If Christ said in Luke 21:36 that ALL those things He had just listed in verses 8-35 (including His own return in the clouds) were "about to come to pass", then I believe Him. Absolutely.

Think about it. Only those who were revealed the matter by the Father, could know at the time. Jesus drives this point home, over and over. Satan underestimated God, as usual. Think of the verse... The would not have crucified the Lord of Glory had they known. 1 Cor. 2:8

That was not Satan, but the "rulers of the age" who ignorantly crucified the Lord of Glory - namely the rulers of the Sanhedrin whom Peter accused of ignorantly killing the Prince of Life (Acts 3:17 - "And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.")

Satan knew very well that Jesus was Messiah the Prince, the incarnate Son of God who had come in the flesh. The devils also admitted this, saying, "Let us alone; what have we to do with you, Jesus of Nazareth? Did you come to destroy us? I know who you are - the Holy One of God!" (Mark 1:24). Do you really think that the devils knew that Jesus was the promised Messiah come in the flesh, but Satan their leader did not? This means Satan was not possibly going to be the "Man of Lawlessness" or The Antichrist individual. He doesn't fit the antichrist criteria of 2 John 7 and 1 John 4:3 of denying that Jesus was the Messiah who had come in the flesh.

They weren't. They may be a "type", but the things you say "have happened" are things that I don't agree have happened.

Those two thieves which Isaiah 53:12 called "the lawless" were not just a "type". Mark 15:27-28 announced that those two Zealot thieves who had participated in the insurrection against Rome WERE the fulfillment of "the lawless" prophesied in Isaiah 53:12. The Zealots were well known for their extreme hatred of Rome and any who were Roman sympathizers. They were willing to kill or steal from anyone who did not share their plans to overthrow the Romans. The laws of the land meant nothing to them when it came to getting rid of the Roman control of their nation. Josephus pronounced the Zealots as a plague upon their own people worse even than the Romans themselves.

It will be Satan himself. I assure you. If it happened, Christ would have Physically returned. There are many anti-Christ's. There is yet to be the final capital A version.

As mentioned above, Satan did not fit the criteria of an antichrist as found in 1 John 4:3 and 2 John 7. John wrote that, at the time he was then writing, "even now are there many antichrists, whereby we KNOW that it is the last hour" (1 John 2:18). The one main Antichrist was one of those "many antichrists" who had gone out from among those John was addressing in 1 John 2:18-19. Each one of those "false christs" tried to present themselves as being Daniel's "Messiah the Prince" as close to the prophesied year of His first coming (which was in AD 30 at the beginning of His public miraculous ministry). The farther from that AD 30 year that those Zealot leaders tried to present their claim as being Daniel 9:25's prophesied Messiah, the less the people would have been inclined to believe their deception.

I do know that the detail is very incredible. Alexander the great is a fine example. Yet, there's more to come, for certain.

Everything in the book of Daniel is ancient history by now. ALL of it. Daniel 12:7 states that by the time the power of the holy people was shattered, that ALL those predictions would have been finished. And that shattering of the power of the holy people was finished by AD 70. Meaning every bit of Daniel was finished by then. Including the resurrection in Daniel 12:2.

We serve the same Jesus and are siblings. Sorry for not stating this sooner.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you!

We certainly are that for sure. Even if we differ on these things. I regard discussions like this as if they were at a family dinner table with lively exchanges all around from the various family members.

 

[Qubit]

Modern day Location: Bergama, İzmir Province, Turkey

Actual Picture of the throne.

View attachment 349512

That is not the Throne of Satan.