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The common thread in Trump's defenders

Zaha Torte

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Yes, he did, so did stormy. That was what Costello testified to. That is why Trump was not Charged years ago. The FBI, said Cohen was unreliable as a witness. Costello, testified that Cohen told him, he paid that all on his own, to keep Milania and the family from finding out...
This is the same Cohen that admitted to stealing from Trump and to wanting to testify to get revenge on him, right?
 
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Zaha Torte

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Nobody’s giving you the runaround. If you truly want to know, go looking for it on your own instead of expecting everybody to just hand it to you. If you’re finding the responses here lacking, ask better, more specific, clearer questions.
I am even more convinced that you do not know.

How did Cohen deciding to pay Daniels end up with Trump being a criminal?
 
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Zaha Torte

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You could google “Individual 1”, or just visit this linkie.
Even if Trump is this "Individual 1" and he directed Cohen to make these payments - of which both Cohen and Daniels have claimed Trump did not know about - how is that a crime exactly?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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What actually happent is nothing that you were told that happened in the echo chamber you find comfort in.
That is a very poor response. If you hope to be persuasive tell us what actually happened with evidence to support your claim..
 
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DaisyDay

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An Non disclosure agreement was made a campaign contirbution.....That is what this is about......
Sort of. There were more than one NDA plus the payments to "catch and kill". Cohen upon direction of Trump set up an LLC to handle and obscure the payments. He took out a home equity loan to fund the payments. These payments were for the benefit of Trump's campaign and totaled far more than the allowable campaign contributions (election law violation) and came entirely from Cohen's own assets. This was discussed and decided upon by Cohen. TO CFO Weisselberg and Trump and documented by hand-written notes.

You know that there were 34 counts that Trump was indicted, tried and found guilty for, right? This goes to the repayment to Cohen and how they were categorized falsely and illegally as payments for Cohen being on retainer even though he was not on retainer and did no legal work for the checks.

The first two payments were done from the revocable trust (of which Trump was the sole beneficiary for the purpose of shielding Trump from day to day knowledge of his Trump Organization). Two trustees, Weisselberg and Don Junior, signed those checks and filed them with the TO as legal expenses. These entries were filed in the Detail General Ledger for the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, bearing voucher numbers
and kept and maintained by the Trump Organization in February 2017. Trump was charged with causing false business records to be filed with the state of New York.

All the subsequent payments to Cohen were signed by Trump himself. The troika decided that Cohen would submit invoices monthly for the rest of 2017 for retainer payments even though there was no retainer. The invoices were recorded on the general ledger of Donald J Trump and kept and maintained by the TO.

So the case was not so much as the NDAs being issued as it was who made the payments, for what purpose, who made the payments and how it was reimbursed and recorded. The payments were illegal campaign contributions and the reimbursements were tax fraud for being written off as business expenses when they were campaign expenses.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Listen hard. Not one says he didn't do the acts for which he was convicted.
Instead, they say:
He shouldn't have been charged.
The crimes were committed too long ago (2016).
He has not been convicted of federal election fraud. Not yet!
They quibble about NY state law.
They say the trial should have been in Staten Island.

But not one says, "He never did those things."

And let's face it, those things were 110% immoral and unethical.

There's a statue of limitations which has run out prior to ever charging Trump. That's a fact of the law. You can't go back in time to charge people with minor crimes.

No one knows what crime Trump was even convicted of, even the jury options were multiple choice.

From all I could gather, Trump was on trial for saying on tax official records that the payment to the attorney who handled the Stormy Daniels non-disclosure agreement was marked as a legal expense.

Since NDA's are in fact legal expenses - literally a legally binding agreement between two parties there's no issue with that and is, in no universe, a crime.

Tying the above to a Federal crime is illegal for any state actors to do without charges and prosecution by the Feds, who already declined to prosecute this tax entry because no Federal Election crime was committed.

The State cannot charge and convict anyone for Federal crimes. The State cannot defame an individual by making wild and baseless claims about federal crimes the feds claim never occurred.

So, Trump is innocent, but no one even knows what crimes he's alleged to have committed in the state of New York.

All we can say is, "Supreme Court" because this was the most ridiculous display in all of United States history.
 
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Zaha Torte

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That is a very poor response. If you hope to be persuasive tell us what actually happened with evidence to support your claim..
Both Cohen and Daniels claimed that Trump did not know about the payments.
 
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DaisyDay

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Yes, he did, so did stormy. That was what Costello testified to. That is why Trump was not Charged years ago.
No, Donald was not charged years ago because it was against DOJ policy to charge a sitting president for crimes he may have committed (in this case, did commit).
The FBI, said Cohen was unreliable as a witness. Costello, testified that Cohen told him, he paid that all on his own, to keep Milania and the family from finding out...
Yes, Cohen was an unreliable witness which is why a mountain of corroborating evidence was presented. Keeping Melania from "finding out" - why would Cohen care about that, was only a putative issue from the time the Access Hollywood tape being made public until the end of the election.
By the end of the election, Cohen had already paid out of his own pocket with the agreement that he was to be reimbursed for his expenses and for additional income tax owed as the repayments were disguised as income rather than as reimbursements for the campaign contribution and related expenses (setting up an LLC for the purpose of transferring money). He made voice recordings of their conspiring and there were handwritten notes on the invoices. Plus a lot of witness testimony,

Costello was a disaster.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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I am sincerely curious as to how the left feels about Democrats like Bill Maher, Tulsi Gabbard, Mesha Mainor, and even John Fetterman, who are now preaching about how "I didn't leave the progressives, the progressives left me."
Those people old, out of touch or trying to appeal to a certain type of audience. No idea who Mainor is.
 
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Zaha Torte

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No, Donald was not charged years ago because it was against DOJ policy to charge a sitting president for crimes he may have committed (in this case, did commit).
The crime being adultery?
Yes, Cohen was an unreliable witness which is why a mountain of corroborating evidence was presented. Keeping Melania from "finding out" - why would Cohen care about that, was only a putative issue from the time the Access Hollywood tape being made public until the end of the election.
By the end of the election, Cohen had already paid out of his own pocket with the agreement that he was to be reimbursed for his expenses and for additional income tax owed as the repayments were disguised as income rather than as reimbursements for the campaign contribution and related expenses (setting up an LLC for the purpose of transferring money). He made voice recordings of their conspiring and there were handwritten notes on the invoices. Plus a lot of witness testimony,

Costello was a disaster.
And this proves that Trump was involved?
 
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iluvatar5150

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I am even more convinced that you do not know.

How did Cohen deciding to pay Daniels end up with Trump being a criminal?

@DaisyDay beat me to providing the answer in post 286

There's a statue of limitations which has run out prior to ever charging Trump. That's a fact of the law. You can't go back in time to charge people with minor crimes.

No one knows what crime Trump was even convicted of, even the jury options were multiple choice.

From all I could gather, Trump was on trial for saying on tax official records that the payment to the attorney who handled the Stormy Daniels non-disclosure agreement was marked as a legal expense.

Since NDA's are in fact legal expenses - literally a legally binding agreement between two parties there's no issue with that and is, in no universe, a crime.

Tying the above to a Federal crime is illegal for any state actors to do without charges and prosecution by the Feds, who already declined to prosecute this tax entry because no Federal Election crime was committed.

The State cannot charge and convict anyone for Federal crimes. The State cannot defame an individual by making wild and baseless claims about federal crimes the feds claim never occurred.

So, Trump is innocent, but no one even knows what crimes he's alleged to have committed in the state of New York.

All we can say is, "Supreme Court" because this was the most ridiculous display in all of United States history.

If my math is right, there are at least six of you repeating the exact same false claims over and over again despite being correctly repeatedly. Do none of you read the rest of the thread? Have your accounts all been taken over by the same bot army?
 
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Oompa Loompa

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That is a very poor response. If you hope to be persuasive tell us what actually happened with evidence to support your claim..
The problem is that to justify extending the statute of limitations, the prosecution had to prove that the documents were internally falsified with the intent of concealing a crime. Some claim that the other "crime" was election interference. However, no evidence was even discussed or presented pointing to election fraud. Even if there was, this would have been a federal crime to be tried in a federal court. Furthermore, the star witness of the prosecution, Michael Cohen, admitted (under oath) that he internally falsified the documents without Trump's knowledge to steal from Trump because he did not get the bonus he felt he deserved! That in itself should have been enough to close the case. But this is Trump we are talking about and the left could not afford to loose this opportunity to destroy him. So the left just covered their ears and pretended Cohen's confession never happened. Again, no such evidence was presented, nor was there any argument that election interference ever happened. So instead, the judge immediately barred any Trump supporter from being in the jury (so much for having a jury of his peers) and instructed them that as long as they "believed" Trump was covering up a crime, it was enough to find him guilty. So not only was this a trial looking for a crime, it was a trial where the court could literally imagine a crime without evidence. So to answer your question, my evidence is a lack of evidence. When asked what crime Trump committed, all I hear is just regurgitation from left wing sources who tell their followers what to think or believe.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. Trump will defeat Biden on election day, he will pardon himself, he will spend his first day of office purging the leftist corruption, and there will be riots and violent meltdowns never seen before. Days after the election, the violence from the left will make the 2020 BLM and Jan 6th look like a love fest.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Those people old, out of touch or trying to appeal to a certain type of audience. No idea who Mainor is.
Oh, they are part of the "old progressives" because they refused to continue down the slippery slope. Thank you for explaining. Yes, the slippery slope was the vehicle used by the left to slip away. The democratic party did not leave them, the party slipped away from them.
 
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Zaha Torte

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@DaisyDay beat me to providing the answer in post 286
Ok - things are becoming more clear.

I still don't understand how these payments were considered campaign contributions and how Trump was personally involved considering that Coehn and Daniels claimed that he did not know about the payments.
 
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DaisyDay

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There's a statue of limitations which has run out prior to ever charging Trump. That's a fact of the law. You can't go back in time to charge people with minor crimes.
It's actually pretty common for "minor crimes" to be charged as felonies when committed while participating in a felony.

Tangent: One guy got sentenced to life in prison when his larceny got upgraded to felony murder after his partner in burglarizing parked cars, fled the scene in his own car in a high speed chase, that car got hit by another and crashed into a couple of unfortunate cyclists who died. Even though the guy was under arrest before the car accident, he was charged and convicted of felony murder.

No one knows what crime Trump was even convicted of, even the jury options were multiple choice.
He was convicted on 34 counts of falsifying business records in the State of New York in the furtherance of hiding tax fraud, illegal campaign contributions, and/or illegal election interference.

Jurors are very often given multiple choice. The only oddity is that while they had to be unanimous on any conviction of the 34 counts, they did not have to be unanimous in the underlying crime as long as they each agreed that there was at least one.
From all I could gather, Trump was on trial for saying on tax official records that the payment to the attorney who handled the Stormy Daniels non-disclosure agreement was marked as a legal expense.
Not just tax records though, but for filing false business records with the State to cover up tax fraud, election interference and reimbursement for illegal campaign contributions.
Since NDA's are in fact legal expenses - literally a legally binding agreement between two parties there's no issue with that and is, in no universe, a crime.
No, being a legal document does not mean it is an expense for legal services. Most contracts are legally binding but that does not mean that associated payments under the contract are "legal expenses". In one sense, if an expense is legal, i.e. not illegal, then it is a legal expense, but in business accounting lingo, a legal expense is specifically for a service by a lawyer or law firm and perhaps associated fees.

For instance, if you and I had an employment contract, the wage you pay me would not qualify as a legal expense even though the expense is legal.

Fun fact: Trump tried to get his White House staff to sign NDAs, but illegally.

Tying the above to a Federal crime is illegal for any state actors to do without charges and prosecution by the Feds, who already declined to prosecute this tax entry because no Federal Election crime was committed.
No, it isn't. Donald was not convicted by the Feds, but sufficient evidence was presented during the trial to show that the crimes were, in fact, committed even if uncharged.
The State cannot charge and convict anyone for Federal crimes. The State cannot defame an individual by making wild and baseless claims about federal crimes the feds claim never occurred.
The Feds did not claim no crimes occurred; they simply declined to prosecute without exonerating him. NY did not charge and convict Donald for Federal crimes but for covering up the commission of those crimes which is a legit, so far, state charge.
So, Trump is innocent, but no one even knows what crimes he's alleged to have committed in the state of New York.
No, Trump was judged guilty by a jury on 34 listed charges. Did you even read the verdict or the indictment?
All we can say is, "Supreme Court" because this was the most ridiculous display in all of United States history.
This Supreme Court is a wild card with Maga Alito and Clarence Thomas who as taken literally millions of "gifts" from his dear friend Harlan Crow and whose wife was a major participant in the insurrection.
 
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iluvatar5150

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I still don't understand how these payments were considered campaign contributions
They were considered campaign contributions because they were made to prevent damage to his status as a candidate. Think of it like an advertising expense: you buy ads to make your guy look good and you buy ads to make the other guy look bad. Your opponent does the same thing in reverse. Advertising/messaging is a big part of a campaign's expenditures and I don't think it's unreasonable to consider as campaign expenses those costs incurred during a campaign to protect a candidate's image . John Edwards was prosecuted for more-or-less the same thing in 2011 for hiding his affair during the 2008 campaign.
 
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DaisyDay

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The crime being adultery?
No. Read the verdict, the transcripts and/or the indictment.
And this proves that Trump was involved?
:doh: Yes, the jury was unanimously convinced by the documents, the recordings and all the witness testimony. The recordings have him discussing the structure of the payments with Weisselberg and Cohen, and he personally signed most the checks to Cohen.
 
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DaisyDay

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The problem is that to justify extending the statute of limitations, the prosecution had to prove that the documents were internally falsified with the intent of concealing a crime. Some claim that the other "crime" was election interference. However, no evidence was even discussed or presented pointing to election fraud.
That is contrary to fact. Evidence was presented and explained by the prosecution while the defense tried to deny it. Most the trial was given over to that as the signed checks and business records were indisputable.
Even if there was, this would have been a federal crime to be tried in a federal court.
It could have been but wasn't for whatever reason - none to my knowledge was given. It is not uncommon for state and federal charges to overlap. When both are trying a case, the feds are given priority, but if the feds decline, the state can still pursue charges for which it has laws and jurisdiction.
Furthermore, the star witness of the prosecution, Michael Cohen, admitted (under oath) that he internally falsified the documents without Trump's knowledge to steal from Trump because he did not get the bonus he felt he deserved! That in itself should have been enough to close the case.
Why? No honor among thieves is a well known adage. Trump stole from Cohen so Cohen stole back. It was insightful on Cohen's part to record their conversations and maintain contemporaneous notes as his word alone would have been grossly insufficient.
But this is Trump we are talking about and the left could not afford to loose this opportunity to destroy him. So the left just covered their ears and pretended Cohen's confession never happened.
It was discussed at length during the trial by both the prosecution and the defense. You didn't happen to peruse the transcripts, eh?
Again, no such evidence was presented, nor was there any argument that election interference ever happened.
Of course the evidence was presented - what do you think all the days and weeks of witness testimony was about? The signed checks and false business filings were hard evidence that took up almost no time to present.
So instead, the judge immediately barred any Trump supporter from being in the jury (so much for having a jury of his peers) and instructed them that as long as they "believed" Trump was covering up a crime, it was enough to find him guilty. So not only was this a trial looking for a crime, it was a trial where the court could literally imagine a crime without evidence. So to answer your question, my evidence is a lack of evidence. When asked what crime Trump committed, all I hear is just regurgitation from left wing sources who tell their followers what to think or believe.
No, the jury was not instructed that they could "imagine" any crime; they were instructed that they were to determine if the evidence presented demonstrated that Donald committed the crime(s) and if the evidence showed that the business records were falsified in furtherance of the crime(s).

Horse/water: Jury instructions.
In the end, it doesn't really matter. Trump will defeat Biden on election day, he will pardon himself, he will spend his first day of office purging the leftist corruption, and there will be riots and violent meltdowns never seen before. Days after the election, the violence from the left will make the 2020 BLM and Jan 6th look like a love fest.
Don't you even know by now how our court systems work? The president can only pardon federal convictions - he or she has no authority over state convictions.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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That is contrary to fact. Evidence was presented and explained by the prosecution while the defense tried to deny it. Most the trial was given over to that as the signed checks and business records were indisputable.
You mean the ones that Michael Cohen admitted under oath that he falsified without Trump's knowledge?
 
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Hans Blaster

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There's a statue of limitations which has run out prior to ever charging Trump. That's a fact of the law. You can't go back in time to charge people with minor crimes.

That statute of limitation for felonies (and these are felonies) is 5 years.

The crimes charged (and convicted) occurred in 2017.

The statute of limitation pauses (or tolls in jargon) when the suspect leaves the jurisdiction. During his presidency, Donald Trump became a resident of Florida and did not reside in New York. This was well before the 5 years expired.
 
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