Free will and determinism

[Bradskii]

Yet, your will is free to choose. It's you that is culpable for the extra kilo. You can say that "you" didn't gain it, but if you eat a bit too much, or go too large in volume on the carbs... it is you that earned that kilo. Likewise, you have the will to "Lose that kilo". That's up to you.

I put on weight because I enjoy my food. I can't decide to enjoy it. It's the way I'm built. I didn't choose to be me. And I didn't really care if I put on a few pounds. I can't choose to care. But then I realise that half my wardrobe is now unavailable and there are now other considerations. All of which determine my decisions.

Honestly, it sounds like you are a "divine" determinist and believe yourself to be... divine. Think about it. You speak as if your desires are cosmic matters... and your will to do what you do is decided by the UNIVERSE... which by reading your words... revolves around you.

Well, I am at the exact centre of the observable universe. That's kinda cool.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Well, I am at the exact centre of the observable universe. That's kinda cool.

Me too!

 

[Grip Docility]

I put on weight because I enjoy my food.

Emphasis You.

I can't decide to enjoy it

It's called personal Palate. Redefining a statement by exaggerated terms doesn't change the insinuation. You, a being that is free to choose, and is clearly not a Buddhist Monk ordering a Hot Dog by asking the vendor: "Make me One with Everything", has preferences.

It's the way I'm built. I didn't choose to be me.

This is called denial. It's not a river in Egypt. Again, you take the "Blown like a leaf in the wind" approach. Are you or are you not a unique individual, capable of making genuine decisions.

And I didn't really care if I put on a few pounds

So why make a big deal about delicious coffee or ale?

I can't choose to care.

This is false. We are changed by what we behold. If I want to play the guitar, I get one, study people that play like I desire to play, then study some more. I should only do this if I enjoy it. Why? It's kind of a waste to do things we don't enjoy.

But then I realize that half my wardrobe is now unavailable and there are now other considerations. All of which determine my decisions.

This is conflation of rational consequences with philosophical musings. Philosophy is valuable and necessary. Yet, simple point of fact... you have a size and it increases from many factors that are biological and the result of your choices. Not being able to "Will" things is not true.

Why keep touching God in discussion on a hidden level, that seems to blame Him, and simultaneously deny that you are capable of deciding your fate through obvious interaction with your surroundings through the application of desired intention and outcome?

Well, I am at the exact center of the observable universe. That's kinda cool.

At least you're honest about it! That's something.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Me too!

I'm not. But I didn't figure that out on my own.

 

[Bradskii]

If I want to play the guitar, I get one, study people that play like I desire to play, then study some more. I should only do this if I enjoy it.

Quite right. But you can't choose to decide to enjoy something. If you could then you could choose to enjoy learning Greek. Or choose to enjoy learning to play the harp. Or choose to enjoy learning to crochet.

Try it. Let me know how you get on.

 

[Fervent]

Whether you can overcome an addiction, or just a simple desire (go to the pub instead of the gym) requires a second order level of decision making. Now if you are the type of person who gives in easily to temptation then you'll have the sugar (or the heroin). You'll go to the pub and not the gym. The first order craving will win out. You can't decide to not be that person. It's who you are. And you had no control over that.

Except you can make decisions that move you towards not being that person, by changing your thought patterns. But that doesn't address the monkey in the room, which is your scenario is impossible if it's just a matter of prior determinations. You seem to be proposing an all-or-nothing sort of thinking, when in fact it seems to be somewhere in between. But our fundamental experience of having causal influence on our decisions is primal, even if exactly what goes into it is more complex than we believe it to be. And if we don't adopt metaphysical presuppositions that require us to pretend that our experience is an illusion, there's no reason to suspect that they might be.

So for some people it really is impossible to overcome addiction. So they need help. It's literally impossible for them to stop on their own.

Addiction is nearly impossible, but the fact that some people are able to overcome it through exerting effort shows that it is possible to do so. But its not something that they can just wish to happen, and it's not just a matter of forcing themselves to stop. Which is why certain therapies are effective, because they foster the person's ability to make the choice not to. If it weren't the case, it would take physical intervention everytime rather than just being one avenue of treatment.

 

[Fervent]

Quite right. But you can't choose to decide to enjoy something. If you could then you could choose to enjoy learning Greek. Or choose to enjoy learning to play the harp. Or choose to enjoy learning to crochet.

Except you can, it's just not as simple as one day deciding but about making choices to train yourself to enjoy those things.

Try it. Let me know how you get on.

I have, and successfully to boot.

 

[Grip Docility]

Quite right. But you can't choose to decide to enjoy something

You, a man that doesn't believe in God by claim... has less ability than me, a fool who believes. You don't understand what you have before you.

If you could then you could choose to enjoy learning Greek.

We can.

Or choose to enjoy learning to play the harp.

It's always an option.

Or choose to enjoy learning to crochet.

Nothing holding us back but our own lack thereof or presence of reasoning on the matter. We are the gate keepers of what we put our hands and mind to.

Try it. Let me know how you get on.

The Human will is capable. It's sad that you have so little faith in yourself on these matters. IMO

 

[Bradskii]

Except you can make decisions that move you towards not being that person, by changing your thought patterns.

What causes you to do that?

If it weren't the case, it would take physical intervention everytime rather than just being one avenue of treatment.

It depends on the person. I couldn't decide to be the type of person that could give up smoking. I either was or I wasn't. And I had no control over the conditions that prompted me to stop.

 

[Fervent]

What causes you to do that?

Desires present within the will, leading to choosing to act and think in particular ways that are contrary to basal impulses. So it occurs through an act of will.

It depends on the person.

It can, sure.

I couldn't decide to be the type of person that could give up smoking.

Neither could I, until I chose to become that kind of person. It took me 5 years to re-train myself well enough to do it, but I quit in a day and haven't looked back since.

I either was or I wasn't. And I had no control over the conditions that prompted me to stop.

If you truly believed you were just being carried along by winds totally outside of your control, there's no reason to care. You're just a victim of physics, none of your feelings or thoughts truly belong to you. They're just particles colliding with each other, chemical signals and electricity. Any semblance of rationality to them is purely accidental, unless there is some rational force behind those collisions.

 

[Bradskii]

We can.

So if there is something that you have absolutely no interest in doing whatsoever, you can decide to be interested in it? You can certainly decide to do it. But you cannot decide to want to do it. That's as crazy as saying that you hated a film, but now you're going to decide that you liked it. Or you hate Brussels sprouts but now you are going to decide that they're delicious.

 

[Grip Docility]

So if there is something that you have absolutely no interest in doing whatsoever, you can decide to be interested in it? You can certainly decide to do it. But you cannot decide to want to do it. That's as crazy as saying that you hated a film, but now you're going to decide that you liked it. Or you hate Brussels sprouts but now you are going to decide that they're delicious.

It's only crazy if one doesn't understand how amazing human beings genuinely are.

I will acknowledge that there are hard biological truths, yet these matters don't suggest that the will is fettered. It's more absurd to underestimate the amazing abilities of the human Will. If you tried to describe computers and cell phones to a person 5000 years ago, they would think you were either insane, a god or a sorcerer.

You severely depreciate the true capabilities of the human will.

"The Human Will" is not the issue here. "Your perception of the Human Will" is the issue.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I'm not. But I didn't figure that out on my own.

Someday, I'll explain cosmology to you, but not today.

 

[Grip Docility]

Someday, I'll explain cosmology to you, but not today.

Let's start at the event that precludes what is observable. And.... go.......

Perhaps, once we've concluded with honesty the thoughts which preclude the observable ... we can then discuss what genuinely precedes the observable…

 

[Bradskii]

Desires present within the will...

Yes, you do things because you desire them. They are your preferences. We've already gone through this. You always do what you prefer. But your preferences don't spring unbidden from nowhere. There is always a because. There is always a reason for them being there. There are antecedent conditions that led to them.

If you truly believed you were just being carried along by winds totally outside of your control, there's no reason to care.

Are you the type of person who cares about things? Whether you are or you aren't has nothing to do with free will. But whether you are or you are not will be one of the conditions that determine the choices that you make.

 

[Fervent]

Yes, you do things because you desire them. They are your preferences.

There's a difference between a desire, and a preference. And neither is determinitive, just indicative.

We've already gone through this. You always do what you prefer.

Except when I don't.

But your preferences don't spring unbidden from nowhere.

No, but preferences incline us towards a decision not determine the decision for us. And we can re-shape our preferences should we have some rational.

There is always a because.

Again, we're talking about different kinds of cause here. Preferences fit better with final causes, where they are explained in terms of their end purposes not priors. Desire is not an event, it's something inherent within the will itself.

There is always a reason for them being there.

Loose semantics, what do you mean by "reason"?

There are antecedent conditions that led to them.

Conditions, perhaps. But none of those conditions are the efficient cause of an act of will. They may incline our will to go in one direction or another, but it is still an act of will that determines the course in the end.

Are you the type of person who cares about things? Whether you are or you aren't has nothing to do with free will. But whether you are or you are not will be one of the conditions that determine the choices that you make.

The fact that you're arguing implies that you don't actually believe that you are incapable of choosing your own course to a certain degree. Because obviously you think there's something meaningful about the choices that have brought you to believe what you believe, such as the belief that free will is an illusion. If you actually believed free will is an illusion, there would be nothing meaningful about holding that belief such that you'd seek to demonstrate it to be true.

 

[Bradskii]

It's only crazy if one doesn't understand how amazing human beings genuinely are.

I will acknowledge that there are hard biological truths, yet these matters don't suggest that the will is fettered.

These matter determine how you will react. Will determine your mood. Your decisions. Your reactions to events. You are the sum of your biology. You aren't separate from it.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Let's start at the event that precludes what is observable. And.... go.......

What part of the second person singular pronoun and "not today" did you not understand?

 

[Bradskii]

Except when I don't.

Bear in mind the difference between a want and a preference. You might want sugar in your coffee, but you prefer not to because your long term preference of losing weight overrides your short term desire for something sweet. If you add sugar then your short term desire then determines your preference.

If you say that you can sometimes do what you prefer not to then give me an example.

 

[Grip Docility]

What part of the second person singular pronoun and "not today" did you not understand?

Aha, so you will be most wise on the matter, come "tomorrow". Which is a day that never comes, when in context. Thank you for your well written clarification.