Systemic racism in the USA: Are whites "guiltier" if they had slavery in their past?

[Diamond72]

Are you implying that white immigration is ok but now that minorities are immigrating is not?

Not at all. A good friend of ours sponsored a man from African for a finesse visa. His father was a pastor and he is a wonderful person. If anyone is a minority it is my wife. There are only 3% Asian in the area we live in. So if you want to accuse me of being racist then you are going to have to explain why I am in a biracial marriage.

 

[rturner76]

Not at all. A good friend of ours sponsored a man from African for a finesse visa. His father was a pastor and he is a wonderful person. If anyone is a minority it is my wife. There are only 3% Asian in the area we live in. So if you want to accuse me of being racist then you are going to have to explain why I am in a biracial marriage.

I never accused you of being a racist did I? Did I ever say anything like "you are a racist"? What I was trying to explain is that this country's laws and culture were founded on a class system just like it was in old Europe (and many many other countries). One of those class distinctions is economic and another one is race. I don't believe the average white man is overtly racist, what I believe is one or two (maybe three) generations ago racism was not only legal but favored, especially in the South. The stain of racism has not been washed out of our society and things like being worried that one;s race will not remain in the majority is one of those symptoms.

I also wanted to point out (bu my example of South Africa) that even if the majority is overwhelmed by minorities, the same class system will still be in place ensuring that majority black or Latino neighborhoods will always have a lower value in real estate than exclusively white neighborhoods. I would recommend googling terms like "white flight" and discrimination in real estate to familiarize yourself with the economics of the "American way" which favors the white race on all levels of economics, governance, and real estate. That will not chang with a population reduction of whites.

Another example is Africa....The tragic story of the Rwandan civil war. It was a sadistic genocide.

• Hutu: The majority ethnic group, making up about 85% of the population. The Hutu were historically the poorer and lower part of society, but social mobility between groups was possible. During the 1994 Rwandan genocide, the Hutu formed an extremist government that targeted the Tutsi for murder.
• Tutsi: A minority ethnic group, making up about 14% of the population. The Tutsi were historically the wealthy and powerful part of society. During the 1994 Rwandan genocide, nearly one million ethnic Tutsi were killed.

This was a situation where the minority controlled the economics of the region (if and when the whites became a minority, that would be the economic situation in the US).

I seriously doubt that there would ever be a genocide in the US but it illustrates how the minority (like in South Africa) can still rule the majority. So even when the percentage of the population changes, the money will remain with the ruling class. Systems based on class are the norm all over the world and though there is a fair amount of social mobility, the real power remains what the ruling "class."

One of my favorite songs is called C.R.E.A.M (Cash Rules Everything Around Me) The ones with the cash make the rules no matter how many or how few there are of that particular demographic. Most kids in public schools all around the world are required to learn English as a component of a basic education. The reduction in the white population could possibly make it so our children's children may be required to take Spanish.

BTW, I don't know what those pics are about on my post but I don't seem to ba able to get rid of them so just ignore them if possible. THe Rawandan information I posted was from Rwanda.

 

[Diamond72]

I never accused you of being a racist did I?

Yes but that is ok. I understand you did not mean it.

 

[rturner76]

Yes but that is ok. I understand you did not mean it.

Thanks, I do get passionate on political topics but I do my best to not call people names

 

[rjs330]

when there is a racial disparity show in every statistic across the board from the justice system, employment, housing conditions, education, and just about everything els plus considering this countrie's history you see no pattern? That is because you trust your opinion more that facts that you don't like

You have to look at each one of those things separately and ask yourself why is it? The easy button for the left is "racism". Maybe their are loads of racist judges. But the system isn't. So you'd have to find the judges rhat are being racist and do something about it.

Employment- The left easy button is "racism". But you'd have to look a lot deeper than that. And I don't wish to fit in depth right now.

What was it built on racial equality and the elimination of class? You did take American history in school I assume. How about geography? Do you know that inequality exists everywhere? It can be based on race, language, class, economics. The inequality in this country is based on race and class as I am sure you have noticed, poor whites don't have it much better than blacks. Their saving grace is that they are white so the will be given the benefit of the doubt more often.

Did I say there is no inequality?

I didn't say all judges are racist, what I said was most people have prejudices and many aren't even aware of them.

How can you tell the difference?

Can you explain why this is happening?

Because some people are racist?

Slavery and Jim Crow were built into not only the legal system but into the fabric of our nation. You don't change a law and simultaneously change the culture of an entire nation.

You see these are good examples of systemic racism. Jim Crow and slavery were racist activities built into systems and supported by law. But You know thats over right?

 

[rjs330]

White people are rapidly becoming a minority. There are 20 large cities that are more than 50% black.

List of U.S. cities with large Black populations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think thata a bit deceiving. I dont think you are being deceptive. I think thwre are those that tey and toss out that information to the rest of us. Its probably an agenda that want to tey and say, "hey watch out white people. You better quit being a bunch of racists to the other mi orities, because soon you will be one."

People like to bring that up. But whites are not becoming a minority. They still make up the majority race. In order to call them.a Minority you have to cobble together ALL the other races combined. But it's not really accurate. Whites still make up the majority of races in rhe US. They are about 68%. That means you have to add up ALL the othwr races together for the other 30%. I think blacks still at about 12-13%. We are quite a ways away from being a minority. We all know that all races are often quite racist to the others. The Blacka are racist to the Hispanics. The Hispanics are racist to the blacks. The Chinese are racist to the Japenese. And on it goes.

Blacks would need to gain at least 40-50% in population before they come close to making whites a minority.

 

[Diamond72]

which favors the white race on all levels of economics, governance, and real estate.

Actually my son is a minority and they taught him how to take advantage of that. He graduated from college debt free. Now people are complaining that minorities get special treatment that the majority does not get.

I understand though that you are talking about Africa which I do not know that much about.

 

[rturner76]

So you'd have to find the judges rhat are being racist and do something about it.

How when the whole system is built on racism?

Did I say there is no inequality?

No, you said it's not systemic when it is.

How can you tell the difference?

You can't, that's why it's hard to prosecute. Some judges are overtly racist nd some aren't even aware of their own prejudice but the outcome is the same.

Because some people are racist?

Because a whole justice system is racist.

You see these are good examples of systemic racism. Jim Crow and slavery were racist activities built into systems and supported by law. But You know thats over right?

The laws change but the people haven't. Just like I said in prostitution. we made laws against it but did they stop it from happening? Added to that are prostitutes prosecuted like 100 times more often than their John's? Yes. So why don't they prosecute Johns? Because the system favors males.

 

[rturner76]

Actually my son is a minority and they taught him how to take advantage of that. He graduated from college debt free. Now people are complaining that minorities get special treatment that the majority does not get.

Ok there's one. How often does that happen in families with undereducated parents white or black? Many poor whites have it just as hard but are more often given something called "the benefit of doubt." There is no doubt when it comes to sending someone black to prison (according to the statistics).

EDIT: It's not just that it happens in Africa, it happens all over the world with a multitude of ethnic groups that may not even be white or black but the people with the money and the property dominate those that don't have it regardless of color. It just so happens it was the blacks that ere stepped on for 400 years before some laws got changes but the changing laws didn't change the culture of the nation.

 

[Diamond72]

Thanks, I do get passionate on political topics but I do my best to not call people names

My understanding is in the north they had indentured servant. They would sell themselves for 7 years and then they would go free. Even in the south they should have released them in 50 years. Slavery was never meant to go from generation to generation like that. It does seem to be a part of their whole system though. The role of mammy in Gone with the Wind is interesting. If the women is a slave then the children are slaves no matter who the father is. There was a difference between house slaves and field slaves. There is a recent book that says 40% of the slaves were bought and sold by women. Black and white children were raised together by the mammy. Then there was sissy who most likely was her half sister and she was always trying to get her straightened out. In some cases they really were a part of the family. It is interesting to read the book that were actually written by people at the time. Because there is a lot of revisionism in history if you do not look at first hand accounts.

Science is starting to talk about how we can inherit memory. They use to call this instinct. I have women tell me they can feel it in their bones or in their blood the abuse their ancestors suffered. I am sure that there are a lot of stories to tell. It is a hot topic so they do not make movies like that very often.

 

[rjs330]

How when the whole system is built on racism?

I disagree.

No, you said it's not systemic when it is.

I disagree.

You can't, that's why it's hard to prosecute. Some judges are overtly racist nd some aren't even aware of their own prejudice but the outcome is the same.

Then you cant claim it's systemic.

The laws change but the people haven't. Just like I said in prostitution. we made laws against it but did they stop it from happening? Added to that are prostitutes prosecuted like 100 times more often than their John's? Yes. So why don't they prosecute Johns? Because the system favors males.

Oh for heavens sake. No it doesn't. Otherwise we would have a lot fewer males in jail.

No it's harder to go after the John's than it is rhe prostitutes. Generally the John's aren't the ones standing on the street corners. You practically have to.catch a John in the act. LE will most generally take the easiest route.

 

[Diamond72]

Just like I said in prostitution. we made laws against it but did they stop it from happening?

Not if you go on sugar daddy dot com. It is all legal there. Although that is suppose to be long term arrangements. I remember going to a garage sale in a million dollar brand new house. The women had five daughters and she was telling me her boyfriend was the chief of police. That got me thinking. If people have money how much would they be willing to pay to keep from going to jail? If they have enough they maybe willing to do a payola for a million dollars. I try to support the elected officials that are the least into payola.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I can and I have, multiple times but you disregard it so fast that you don't even remember reading them.

No you haven’t, where’s your quote that “blacks in the same situation as whites” receive stiffer sentences? You never posted anything to support that assumption. In order to present evidence for that they would have to include specific information about specific cases along with examples of people with similar criminal records. You haven’t provided any shred of evidence explaining why they receive stiffer sentences. If more people of a specific demographic are being convicted more than other demographics the OBVIOUSLY they’re going to have a longer criminal record resulting in stiffer sentences. It’s like saying the crips are being discriminated against because they wear blue because they receive stiffer sentences than the Boy Scouts when the ACTUAL reason why they receive stiffer sentences IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE A LONGER CRIMINAL RECORD. The cause isn’t because they wear blue, that’s just an assumption that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual cause. You’re doing the same exact thing in your argument, you’re applying a cause that is not supported by the information given in the article because that article DOESN’T GIVE INFORMATION ON SPECIFIC CASES. Therefore without specific information about specific cases it can’t provide any evidence of the cause of them receiving stiffer sentences.

 

[Diamond72]

where’s your quote that “blacks in the same situation as whites” receive stiffer sentences

Research has shown that Black and Hispanic individuals are more likely than White people with similar criminal histories and charges to be arrested and held in jail before trial and that they tend to have higher bails set and receive lengthier and more punitive sanctions, such as incarceration rather than probation.

You should learn how to use google and check this out for yourself.

Racial Disparities Persist in Many U.S. Jails

Although a wave of changes to sentencing and corrections policies over the past two decades has helped lessen disparities in federal and state prisons, Black adults still were imprisoned in 2020 at five times the rate for White adults.

www.pewtrusts.org

 

[Bradskii]

...along with examples of people with similar criminal records.

'Black male federal defendants receive longer sentences than whites arrested for the same offenses and with comparable criminal histories. https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/...achr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf

And from here: Same background. Same crime. Different race. Different sentence.

'Florida lawmakers have struggled for 30 years to create a more equitable system. Points are now used to calculate sentences based on the severity of the crime, the defendant’s prior record and a host of other factors. The idea is to punish criminals in Pensacola the same as those in Key West — no matter their race, gender or wealth. But the point system has not stopped discrimination.

In Manatee County, judges sentence whites convicted of felony drug possession to an average of five months behind bars. They give blacks with identical charges and records more than a year.

Judges in the Florida Panhandle county of Okaloosa sentence whites to nearly five months for battery. They lock up blacks for almost a year.

Along the state’s northeast shore, judges in Flagler County put blacks convicted of armed robbery away for nearly triple the time.'

And from here: Criminal justice system analysis shows racial disparity in Florida sentencings - Orlando Sentinel

'The Herald-Tribune reviewed tens of millions of records in two state databases. The first is compiled by the state’s court clerks, and it tracks criminal cases through every stage of the justice system. The second is maintained by the Florida Department of Corrections, and it notes points scored by felons at sentencing.

Points are used to calculate sentences based on the severity of the crime, the defendant’s prior record and a host of other factors.

The Herald-Tribune concluded that when a white and black defendant score the same points for the same offense, judges give the black defendant a longer prison stay in 60 percent of felony cases.

 

[Astrid]

'Black male federal defendants receive longer sentences than whites arrested for the same offenses and with comparable criminal histories. https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/...achr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf

And from here: Same background. Same crime. Different race. Different sentence.

'Florida lawmakers have struggled for 30 years to create a more equitable system. Points are now used to calculate sentences based on the severity of the crime, the defendant’s prior record and a host of other factors. The idea is to punish criminals in Pensacola the same as those in Key West — no matter their race, gender or wealth. But the point system has not stopped discrimination.

In Manatee County, judges sentence whites convicted of felony drug possession to an average of five months behind bars. They give blacks with identical charges and records more than a year.

Judges in the Florida Panhandle county of Okaloosa sentence whites to nearly five months for battery. They lock up blacks for almost a year.

Along the state’s northeast shore, judges in Flagler County put blacks convicted of armed robbery away for nearly triple the time.'

And from here: Criminal justice system analysis shows racial disparity in Florida sentencings - Orlando Sentinel

'The Herald-Tribune reviewed tens of millions of records in two state databases. The first is compiled by the state’s court clerks, and it tracks criminal cases through every stage of the justice system. The second is maintained by the Florida Department of Corrections, and it notes points scored by felons at sentencing.

Points are used to calculate sentences based on the severity of the crime, the defendant’s prior record and a host of other factors.

The Herald-Tribune concluded that when a white and black defendant score the same points for the same offense, judges give the black defendant a longer prison stay in 60 percent of felony cases.

That does not sound good.
Such injustices are shameful.

 

[Diamond72]

Such injustices are shameful.

They do not have money. If you have money you can hire a attorney to get you off or to bribe the judge. A lot of times family and loved ones bail people out when they are in trouble. Courts would rather charge fines and make money off of people.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Research has shown that Black and Hispanic individuals are more likely than White people with similar criminal histories and charges to be arrested and held in jail before trial and that they tend to have higher bails set and receive lengthier and more punitive sanctions, such as incarceration rather than probation.

You should learn how to use google and check this out for yourself.

Racial Disparities Persist in Many U.S. Jails

Although a wave of changes to sentencing and corrections policies over the past two decades has helped lessen disparities in federal and state prisons, Black adults still were imprisoned in 2020 at five times the rate for White adults.

www.pewtrusts.org

Right so because they can’t make bail they pay their debt with jail time instead of getting probation. Thats what the article says right after the portion you quoted. As far as minorities receiving higher bails with similar criminal histories I would have to see proof of that to believe it. The term “similar criminal history” is a loose term that is subject to interpretation. It could also be a matter of different precincts giving stiffer penalties for violations that are more common in their area in an effort to crack down on them. Without the specifics all we have is speculation.

If you can’t make bail you have to sit in jail until your court date. Then when you’re finally sentenced whatever time you spent in jail is counted as time served towards your sentence. So if they’ve already served their time waiting for a court date then they’re free to go and probation wouldn’t be necessary in many cases. This is going to affect the statistics as a result of financial problems instead of racial bigotry.

 

[Bradskii]

As far as minorities receiving higher bails with similar criminal histories I would have to see proof of that to believe it.

I gave it. A points system was in place in the examples I gave, weighting the conditions for sentence.

You are now ignoring the facts that are being presented.

 

[rturner76]

“blacks in the same situation as whites”

You talk all that stuff about blacks being more likely to have previous crimes which is causing higher sentences. This is what the United States Sentencing Commission had to say right at the top:

Key Findings​

Consistent with its previous reports, the Commission found that sentence length continues to be associated with some demographic factors. In particular, after controlling for a wide variety of sentencing factors, the Commission found:

1. Black male offenders continued to receive longer sentences than similarly situated White male offenders. Black male offenders received sentences on average 19.1 percent longer than similarly situated White male offenders during the Post-Report period (fiscal years 2012-2016), as they had for the prior four periods studied. The differences in sentence length remained relatively unchanged compared to the Post-Gall period.

2017 Demographic Differences in Federal Sentencing

(November 2017) A report updating the Commission's data analysis concerning demographic differences in federal sentencing practices set forth in the Commission's 2012 Report to the Congress: Continuing Impact of United States v. Booker on Federal Sentencing.

www.ussc.gov

It's a government report and not left-wing ranting.

2017 Demographic Differences in Federal Sentencing

(November 2017) A report updating the Commission's data analysis concerning demographic differences in federal sentencing practices set forth in the Commission's 2012 Report to the Congress: Continuing Impact of United States v. Booker on Federal Sentencing.

www.ussc.gov