Systemic racism in the USA: Are whites "guiltier" if they had slavery in their past?

[BCP1928]

Those on the systemic side use a lot of correlations as if there was causation. As if a disparity is caused by systemic racism. The disparity itself is enough. But they have no evidence that the disparity is caused by systemic racism. That's the problem.

That's what CRT* is for--to look into that kind of statistical disparity and examine the causes in order to find out if it is systemic racism or not.

*Real CRT, that is, not the right's Woke Monster CRT.

 

[rjs330]

That's what CRT* is for--to look into that kind of statistical disparity and examine the causes in order to find out if it is systemic racism or not.

*Real CRT, that is, not the right's Woke Monster CRT.

No it's not. Crt is to assign racism, to blame racism where there isn't any.

 

[BCP1928]

No it's not. Crt is to assign racism, to blame racism where there isn't any.

That's OK, it's just an academic discipline, they can just change the name of it to something else and let conservatives keep CRT. Just like the people who originally coined the term "woke" don't use it any more.

 

[BCP1928]

That's not proof of systemic racism. Where is the evidence that all of what you posted is strictly due to systemic racism? Thats what is always missing from any of these arguments.

You sincerely believe that the justice system is so filled with racist people and attitudes. But you haven't proven it. All the sentences given for everyone are based solely at the judges discretion. Very few are strict sentences that apply to everyone no matter what. So you have to show that rhe system is rigged against blacks. To cause them to have higher sentences strictly due to their skin color. Or else you are accusing judges of being individually racist.

Yes, you are quite correct. Those figures have to be carefully analyzed in order to know if racism is involved. It's complicated, but there is actually an academic discipline devoted to it. I can't name it, because its original name is used for something else now.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Did you even try to read the information in the links I posted? I wonder.

Here are specific numbers since it seems you had not the time to open one of the links I provided. You should be able to understand these. They use pictures. If you still can't understand there is a disparity you are either incapable of learning new information or you are just being wilfully ignorant. This is just one source and there are dozens more with even more detail even on government websites.

Black people were overrepresented in most jails with relevant data​

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More detail about these specific charts here:

Systemic racism in the USA: Are whites "guiltier" if they had slavery in their past?

You have to show: your driver's licence, or Australian passport number, or Medicare card number, or Australian citizenship number, or have someone who is enrolled confirm your identity. Any why not use these cards as identification during voting? Is it that hard to bring out your driver's...

www.christianforums.com

Other resources:

Racial and Ethnic Disparities in the Criminal Justice System

Examine the data, innovative justice responses and state policies addressing racial and ethnic disparities in the criminal justice system.

www.ncsl.org

One in Five: Racial Disparity in Imprisonment — Causes and Remedies – The Sentencing Project

Learn three main causes of racial disparity in imprisonment and promising reforms from across the country that can mitigate their impact.

www.sentencingproject.org

Report to the United Nations on Racial Disparities in the U.S. Criminal Justice System – The Sentencing Project

Report to the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia, and Related Intolerance

www.sentencingproject.org

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/104687/racial-and-ethnic-disparities-throughout-the-criminal-legal-system.pdf

Race & Justice

naacp.org

You can no ;longer hids behind "no proof."

How does this prove that racism IS THE CAUSE of them going to jail? Why doesn’t this just indicate that they’re more likely to break the law? You’re just taking them percentage of black in jail and applying a cause to it that doesn’t have anything to support it, it just came out of thin air.

 

[Bradskii]

How does this prove that racism IS THE CAUSE of them going to jail? Why doesn’t this just indicate that they’re more likely to break the law? You’re just taking them percentage of black in jail and applying a cause to it that doesn’t have anything to support it, it just came out of thin air.

Are you suggesting that a group of people determined only by skin colour are more criminally minded than others? Are you actually using racism to deny racism..?

 

[com7fy8]

Are whites "guiltier" if they had slavery in their past?

No. Who you are now with God is what matters. And how we are now is what decides who we are with God.

God wants us to be all-loving, gentle and humble, kind and personal with people as their example so they can find out how to love.

Even if you have had slaves - - if you have repented of this and now are doing what is right with all other people, you are forgiven by Jesus so that you are no longer guilty of that slavery.

My husband and I are both white. He and his family are currently, and generally, less religious and more progressive than mine, but his (historically) is MUCH more Southern and slave-owning than mine.

Being progressive can mean being ok with killing unborn people. Also, it can be ok with surgically maiming children so they can think they have changed their gender.

So . . . it is not enough to have some one correct moral thing while you are promoting a number of evil things.

In recent years, I've noticed a change from individualistic and historical focus of racism, toward more 'systemic' focus. The idea is, it doesn't really matter that my husband's family was historically slave-owning, whereas mine were in regions where slavery never occurred. The focus now is, both nonetheless benefited from 'white privilege,' so it doesn't matter if one's white families had slaves or not.

And there is beauty discrimination of loving and favoring women who are more beautiful, and loving others less. This is systemic, to some extent, in the United States. And there are black men who have a major problem of beauty discrimination, and this degrades them from being able to love any and all people the way Jesus wants.

So, both blacks and whites are degraded in their beauty discrimination, but you don't get told much or anything about this major problem. Ones can use slavery and racism as decoys to keep our attention elsewhere, so people are self-righteously moralizing right while they themselves keep on being deeply degraded from real loving. And in their weakness of false loves they do not have strength of God's love; and so they can keep on suffering deeply emotionally and not enjoy Jesus Christ's "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30).

And arguing and complaining can keep on wrecking people and their marriages and politics, so they can not function in God's way of loving. What good is it, then, to make some one moral change, if ones making the changes still do not know how to love??

What matters now is, if they are allies, or at least voting Democrat in greater numbers. In that case, my husband's family is generally more progressive now, even if they have purely Southern and slave-owning roots.

As I have offered . . . some one past item is not what matters. Ones have made their big gesture of no longer owning slaves. But have they found out how to love?

Do you agree with that perspective: is it better to have a family that "currently" is overall more progressive and voting Democrat, even if that family is purely slave-owning and Southern in its past, than it is to come from a family with no slavery, even if that family is currently slightly more third-party or Republican in its voting?

People in both parties need to discover how to love. Putting labels on ourselves does not prove how our character is in the sight of God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Those on the systemic side use a lot of correlations as if there was causation. As if a disparity is caused by systemic racism. The disparity itself is enough. But they have no evidence that the disparity is caused by systemic racism. That's the problem.

Yeah that’s exactly what I see every time.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Those on the systemic side use a lot of correlations as if there was causation. As if a disparity is caused by systemic racism. The disparity itself is enough. But they have no evidence that the disparity is caused by systemic racism. That's the problem.

Life is hard on everybody. It doesn’t care what color your skin is. I’ve worked hard all my life. I started doing concrete demolition at 19 years old and continued doing that for 29 years until I mastered everything there is to know about concrete demolition and still struggled living paycheck to paycheck. I did that until my body just couldn’t take it anymore. I developed arthritis in my back and knees because of all the heavy lifting associated with the job and I was determined to out perform all of my coworkers because I wanted to be the best. And I was the best at every company I worked for but it didn’t land me a supervisor position. Instead I was working for supervisors who were literally wearing diapers when I started cutting concrete. I was constantly pointing out their mistakes and showing them better ways to do the job. Didn’t matter, my employers wanted me right where I was at because I was too profitable working in the field to move to a supervisor position so I became a victim of my own success. So I had to get out of the concrete demo business and now I’m a CDL truck driver still struggling paycheck to paycheck. Still can’t buy a house at the age of 50. I’m white, life doesn’t care what color you are it’s hard on everyone.

 

[rturner76]

That's not proof of systemic racism. Where is the evidence that all of what you posted is strictly due to systemic racism? Thats what is always missing from any of these arguments.

You sincerely believe that the justice system is so filled with racist people and attitudes. But you haven't proven it. All the sentences given for everyone are based solely at the judges discretion. Very few are strict sentences that apply to everyone no matter what. So you have to show that rhe system is rigged against blacks. To cause them to have higher sentences strictly due to their skin color. Or else you are accusing judges of being individually racist.

You CAN read correct? I don't know how it could be explained any more clearly. You saw the statistics, you saw the overview from government Universities and activist sources. There really is no way to be more clear.

This is what I'm talking about when I say you ask for proof, you are shown proof, and you disregard the proof you are shown. If you are not willing to believe what is in front of your eyes, supplying more proof is fruitless. I won't waste any more time doing it except for a couple more. To say I have not provided proof is blatantly dishonest and I am looking for an honest exchange, not just a conversation who doesn't regard proof as proof.

This is from a report entitled :

Systemic And Structural Racism: Definitions, Examples, Health Damages, And Approaches To Dismantling​

"Although civil rights legislation in the 1960s made it illegal to discriminate, enforcement of these antidiscrimination laws has been inadequate.12 Racial inequities, and their ensuing socioeconomic and health consequences, persist because of deeply rooted, unfair systems that sustain the legacy of former overtly discriminatory practices, policies, laws, and beliefs. At times, these systems and structures, which are rooted in beliefs in White supremacy, operate unconsciously or unintentionally, but nevertheless effectively, to produce and sustain racial discrimination."

Is the title of the report in plain enough English to understand? Here is the website that also contains a database of journals, reports, and podcasts concerning a multitude of information about healthcare. It's not a racial activist site, it is a non-profit that concerns itself with all things related to healthcare.

Here is one from the National Library of Medicine. Again, it's not a race-related website. It's a site focused on health healthcare information run by the government. No agenda besides health information and I quote from the abstract:
": Systemic racism is a scientifically tractable phenomenon, urgent for cognitive scientists to address. This tutorial reviews the built-in systems that undermine life opportunities and outcomes by racial category, with a focus on challenges to Black Americans. From American colonial history, explicit practices and policies reinforced disadvantage across all domains of life, beginning with slavery, and continuing with vastly subordinated status. Racially segregated housing creates racial isolation, with disproportionate costs to Black Americans’ opportunities, networks, education, wealth, health, and legal treatment. These institutional and societal systems build in individual bias and racialized interactions, resulting in systemic racism."

I have a feeling you most often don't bother to open the links I post so I left quotes from two websites that specialize in collecting medical data. There is absolutely no possible way between these and other links and quotes that I have not shown proof. Try looking at the proof fr what it is and not what your worldview wants it to be or not be.

 

[rturner76]

How does this prove that racism IS THE CAUSE of them going to jail? Why doesn’t this just indicate that they’re more likely to break the law? You’re just taking them percentage of black in jail and applying a cause to it that doesn’t have anything to support it, it just came out of thin air.

Did you read everything? It also says that blacks in the same legal situation as whites are convicted more often, and are sentenced to more jail time, and less probation. That is called systemic racism. When an entire system is racist it's systemic. It all begins with blacks being more likely to be pulled over in similar situations to whites. Oh, and I forgot, there is also a disparity between bail amounts and the possibility of getting bail rather than being remanded.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Did you read everything? It also says that blacks in the same legal situation as whites are convicted more often, and are sentenced to more jail time, and less probation. That is called systemic racism. When an entire system is racist it's systemic. It all begins with blacks being more likely to be pulled over in similar situations to whites. Oh, and I forgot, there is also a disparity between bail amounts and the possibility of getting bail rather than being remanded.

People are only convicted if there’s sufficient evidence for a conviction. Your article also points out that drug charges and gang members get stiffer sentences and for some stupid reason they think this is also evidence of systemic racism because these specific demographics are more common among minorities. When the truth is it’s not systemic racism it’s the government cracking down on drug trafficking and criminal organizations. So because you have more minorities in gangs and more minorities selling drugs and because they have more convictions that means they have more repeat offenders which is going to result in stiffer sentences. That’s why you can’t use statistics when dealing with sentencing because it is based on the persons criminal record. When the court has sufficient evidence for a conviction they NEVER dismiss the charges. What do you think that they have enough evidence to convict someone and they release them because they’re white? You don’t have evidence of anything. All you have is speculation because you have to know the specific detail of each case in order to determine whether or not people are being judged unfairly.

 

[BCP1928]

People are only convicted if there’s sufficient evidence for a conviction. Your article also points out that drug charges and gang members get stiffer sentences and for some stupid reason they think this is also evidence of systemic racism because these specific demographics are more common among minorities. When the truth is it’s not systemic racism it’s the government cracking down on drug trafficking and criminal organizations. So because you have more minorities in gangs and more minorities selling drugs and because they have more convictions that means they have more repeat offenders which is going to result in stiffer sentences. That’s why you can’t use statistics when dealing with sentencing because it is based on the persons criminal record. When the court has sufficient evidence for a conviction they NEVER dismiss the charges. What do you think that they have enough evidence to convict someone and they release them because they’re white? You don’t have evidence of anything. All you have is speculation because you have to know the specific detail of each case in order to determine whether or not people are being judged unfairly.

Yes, the matter requires serious analysis before racism can be charged, just as you suggest. There is actually an academic discipline for this called Critical Race Theory*

*Real Critical Race Theory,, not the conservative's straw man version.

 

[rturner76]

When the court has sufficient evidence for a conviction they NEVER dismiss the charges.

Yes, and blacks in the same situation as whites for example a first offender will get more jail time, less opportunity for probation and elevated charges.

What do you think that they have enough evidence to convict someone and they release them because they’re white?

I never said they let white felons go. I said they are given less time for the same crimes and more often get a suspended sentence with probation than time in jail.

You don’t have evidence of anything. All you have is speculation because you have to know the specific detail of each case in order to determine whether or not people are being judged unfairly

The evidence is clear but your worldview won't allow you to accept it. Have you seen many black street gang members fly in metric tons of cocaine? Doubt it. Why spend the money locking up nickel and dime dealers who have one gram of cocaine when they could focus more effort on stopping it from coming into this country? It's easier to chase people who can't protect themselves with connections, bribes, and the CIA working in your favor. Are members of organized crime also gangsters? The war on drugs was created in the Vietnam era to ensure the government's ability to surveil "hippies" and "black nationalists." It also allowed them easy access to search people's homes with less burden of proof for the warrant.

Dismissing evidence does not negate the evidence. Researching statistics is a valid way to spot trends. If blacks and Latinos have a harder time getting bail, are locked up for longer sentences, are given less of a chance for probation, etc. there is a trend. Racial disparity has been a factor in the United States since it was a group of colonies. Things have gotten better, much better since the new millennium. The facts of disparity are still there. Ignoring or justifying this disparity does nothing but ensure its continuation. I know it's an uncomfortable fact and no one is blaming you personally other than you're ignoring the truth. It helps perpetuate racist disparity when people don't even acknowledge it exists.

Civil rights laws have been put in place but like the article says, it is difficult to enforce. It is ingrained in our society. Take the example of prostitution. How many laws do we have against it? Have any of them actually reduced the number of prostitutes out there? Same with anti-drug laws, another victimless crime that is impossible to enforce. Civil rights or bias in the judiciary system is a victim of a crime but just as difficult to eradicate. You are still reading statistical evidence and adding your own theory as to why it is happening and you do not trust neither government statistical analysis nor PhD analysis. You seem to have more insight than people who study this for a living. How's that? It's pretty typical of our nation's culture of "white is right."

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, the matter requires serious analysis before racism can be charged, just as you suggest. There is actually an academic discipline for this called Critical Race Theory*

*Real Critical Race Theory,, not the conservative's straw man version.

Yeah CRT is much like the Primordial Soup theory, they both lack evidence to support them.

 

[BCP1928]

Yeah CRT is much like the Primordial Soup theory, they both lack evidence to support them.

How would you know?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, and blacks in the same situation as whites for example a first offender will get more jail time, less opportunity for probation and elevated charges.

Where’s that quote from the article? I’m white, I was never given the option of probation for first time offenses. In fact the first time I was ever arrested for possession of marijuana, which I had about $15 worth on me when I got arrested. When the judge arraigned me to set my bail the first words out of his mouth were “it’s a good thing your parents are dead”. I was confused because my parents weren’t dead so I didn’t say anything. Then he said “your parents are dead right?” I said no sir. Then he said “I bet it would kill them to know what you’re doing now”. I said yes sir. Then he gave me the maximum bail and said to me “I hope you catch aids and die”. Now this wasn’t in a courtroom, this was in a holding cell with two guards present. I was confused I didn’t know what this guy’s problem was so I didn’t say anything because I didn’t want to give him any reason to make my stay any worse. I had been arrested one time previously for trespassing on school property when I was 17 years old. This was about 4 years before this incident. When I got the trespassing charge I was literally 10 feet from the street getting into a friend’s car so he could give me a ride to work. Like I wasn’t roaming around the campus I was 10 feet from the street, I had just got into my friend’s car like 10 seconds before the police rolled up behind us, pulled me out of the car and arrested me for trespassing. So this type of thing doesn’t only happen to blacks.

 

[BNR32FAN]

How would you know?

Because this isn’t the first time I’ve discussed either one of these alleged theories.

 

[BNR32FAN]

How would you know?

If you have proof to support either one of these theories then wouldn’t it have just been easier to present it and prove me wrong?

 

[rjs330]

You CAN read correct? I don't know how it could be explained any more clearly. You saw the statistics, you saw the overview from government Universities and activist sources. There really is no way to be more clear.

This is what I'm talking about when I say you ask for proof, you are shown proof, and you disregard the proof you are shown. If you are not willing to believe what is in front of your eyes, supplying more proof is fruitless. I won't waste any more time doing it except for a couple more. To say I have not provided proof is blatantly dishonest and I am looking for an honest exchange, not just a conversation who doesn't regard proof as proof.

This is from a report entitled :

Systemic And Structural Racism: Definitions, Examples, Health Damages, And Approaches To Dismantling​

"Although civil rights legislation in the 1960s made it illegal to discriminate, enforcement of these antidiscrimination laws has been inadequate.12 Racial inequities, and their ensuing socioeconomic and health consequences, persist because of deeply rooted, unfair systems that sustain the legacy of former overtly discriminatory practices, policies, laws, and beliefs. At times, these systems and structures, which are rooted in beliefs in White supremacy, operate unconsciously or unintentionally, but nevertheless effectively, to produce and sustain racial discrimination."

Is the title of the report in plain enough English to understand? Here is the website that also contains a database of journals, reports, and podcasts concerning a multitude of information about healthcare. It's not a racial activist site, it is a non-profit that concerns itself with all things related to healthcare.

Here is one from the National Library of Medicine. Again, it's not a race-related website. It's a site focused on health healthcare information run by the government. No agenda besides health information and I quote from the abstract:
": Systemic racism is a scientifically tractable phenomenon, urgent for cognitive scientists to address. This tutorial reviews the built-in systems that undermine life opportunities and outcomes by racial category, with a focus on challenges to Black Americans. From American colonial history, explicit practices and policies reinforced disadvantage across all domains of life, beginning with slavery, and continuing with vastly subordinated status. Racially segregated housing creates racial isolation, with disproportionate costs to Black Americans’ opportunities, networks, education, wealth, health, and legal treatment. These institutional and societal systems build in individual bias and racialized interactions, resulting in systemic racism."

I have a feeling you most often don't bother to open the links I post so I left quotes from two websites that specialize in collecting medical data. There is absolutely no possible way between these and other links and quotes that I have not shown proof. Try looking at the proof fr what it is and not what your worldview wants it to be or not be.

I'm actually one that does read links. I like to see exactly what is being said. In reading these things it's very obvious that the bias is ingrained in those who write these things. You first article is so biased it sickening. It's obvious that they are absolutely sold on the fact systemic racism is rampant. Here's an overt statement.

At times, these systems and structures, which are rooted in beliefs in White supremacy, operate unconsciously or unintentionally, but nevertheless effectively, to produce and sustain racial discrimination."

That is such bunk. And they produce no evidence for thier statement.

The national medicine article dies the sane thing. Brings in things from the past that are non existent today. Then they go on to point out racially segregated housing. As if blacks are forced into this.

1. Blacks are just as free to live anywhere they want to.
2. They are free to shop anywhere they want to.
3. They are free to pursue any job they want to.
4. They are free to pursue a college education just like anyone else. In fact they have thier own black college if they want to attend it.

Give me a job blacks are not allowed to do. Give me a medical treatment blacks are not allowed to receive.

I tore down your lefal statistics because they are most often used to try and prove the point. And I showed you why they don't.

1. Sentencing for crimes is individually based and contains many factors. There are almost no crimes that set a specific sentence that applies to everyone. A seat belt fine may be one of them. $50 for not wearing your seat belt. Period. Most other crimes have a range like fines up to $1000. Sentences from 6 months to a year in jail. All these are on a scale. None of these say "unless your black" So it can't be systemic.
2. Each individual judge takes many things into account before sentencing and each individual judge has the freedom to sentence within the parameters of the law. One judge might sentence a person to $100 fine and 5 days in jail and another judge may fine the person $500 and 1 month for tge EXACT SAME CRIME. That's how it works.
3. The system cannot be racist, but an individual judge might be. And you'd gave to prove that. Look at his sentences. Is that judge always handing out fines and jail time to blacks at a higher level than whites under tge EXACT SAME CIRCUMSTANCES? If so then accuse him of being racist. But it's not the system because the law had no inbred racism. It can't. It's neutral.

I guess the statistics you show must mean the judges are a bunch of racists. Is that what you are saying?