Did Jesus create good wine that the wedding guests got drunk on?

[tonychanyt]

John 2:

10 and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.”

Did Jesus create good wine that the wedding guests got drunk on?

No. Barnes explained:

We should not be deceived by the phrase "good wine." We often use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength and its power to intoxicate; but no such sense is to be attached to the word here. Pliny, Plutarch, and Horace describe wine as "good," or mention that as "the best wine," which was harmless or "innocent" - poculo vini "innocentis."

Pliny lived in the 1st century A.D.

Pliny expressly says that a good wine was one that was destitute of spirit (lib. iv. c. 13). It should not be assumed, therefore, that the "good wine" was "stronger" than the other: it is rather to be presumed that it was milder.

The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine, nor drugged wine, nor wine compounded of various substances, such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape.

According to Barnes, what the wedding banquet MC called "good wine" was what we call "grape juice" today. So according to Barnes, everyone serves the grape juice first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the grape juice until now.

That does not make very good sense. Particularly, the Greek word for "drunk" is G3184.

Strong's Greek: 3184. μεθύω (methuó) — 6 Occurrences

BDAG μεθύω:

to drink to a point of intoxication, be drunk.

G3184 appeared in Matt 24:

48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards [G3184].

Berean Literal Bible:

and said, “Everyone serves the fine wine first, and then the cheap wine after the guests are drunk. But you have saved the fine wine until now!”

You can't get drunk on grape juice.

Were some guests drunk before Jesus produced the fine wine?

I don't know. There might be.

Did Jesus create a wine that the wedding guests got drunk on?

I doubt it. I doubt that more guests got drunk on Jesus' fine wine.

 

[awstar]

Barnes, Pliny, Plutarch, Horace et al says:

The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine, nor drugged wine, nor wine compounded of various substances, such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape.

I’m pretty sure you don’t have to be a student of how people lived in first century Palestine to understand what “good” wine means relative to worse “wine”. I suspect that Herod the tetrarch probably had some pretty “good” wine and some pretty “worse” wine at his birthday party where John the Baptist was the guest of (dis)honor. To think that weddings at that time and place were somehow different than birthday parties would be rather naive, in my opinion. And the last place I expect to find naive thoughts is in the Bible

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

 

[tonychanyt]

To think that weddings at that time and place were somehow different than birthday parties would be rather naive, in my opinion.

Who thinks that?

 

[Richard T]

Did Jesus change the water into wine or grape juice? | GotQuestions.org I think it was fermented which to me seems to be the most widely held view. Logically, one has to conclude that wine with alcohol has a greater variation in quality. I doubt unfermented wine has much variation at all. Regardless, it was a miracle with meaning far beyond whether it was fermented or unfermented.

 

[awstar]

Who thinks that?

who ever said: "The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine"

 

[tonychanyt]

who ever said: "The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine"

Are you familiar with First-Order Logic?

 

[awstar]

Are you familiar with First-Order Logic?

no I'm not familiar with the term, but I may be with the principle or concept since I've programmed computers for all my adult life. What is First-Order Logic?

 

[tonychanyt]

no I'm not familiar with the term, but I may be with the principle or concept since I've programmed computers for all my adult life.

What was your major in university?

What is First-Order Logic?

See First-Order Logic and follow up there.

 

[awstar]

What was your major in university?

I have an electrical engineering degree but only one programming course (FORTRAN). All subsequent learning on programming was seat of the pants. I had one logic course in college that could be useful in designing circuit boards and the like, but I never used its principles formally, only intuitively.

I watched the youTube videos you pointed to but my eyes glazed over just like in college over fifty years ago. I did think of a proof by contradiction however than would support the point I was trying to make. Where was I logically off base in my response?

 

[tonychanyt]

Where was I logically off base in my response?

State your premises and conclusion in terms of propositions. This is the process of formal logic.

 

[awstar]

State your premises and conclusion in terms of propositions. This is the process of formal logic.

OK, here's a rough line of statements and a conclusion. This takes a lot of mental effort. I'd rather just blurt out what I think.

-- wine makes a man feel glad

-- Jesus made wine that was good

-- Jesus wine was better than the other wine

-- Jesus wine could make men glad better than the other wine.

-- grape juice is not drunk to make a man feel glad

-- grape juice is drunk to quench a thirst and provide energy

-- grape juice is drunk commonly, maybe at every meal

-- celebrations are not common like every meal

-- John’s story is one of seven miracles of Jesus

-- The objective of John’s writing was to help the reader believe in Jesus

-- A story of Jesus turning water into grape juice wouldn’t mean to much a reader

-- A story of Jesus turning water into the best wine that made everyone glad adds more weight to believing in Jesus


Conclusion:

Therefore, Jesus created good wine (not grape juice) that the wedding guests enjoyed drinking.

Some may have even gotten drunk, if they had excess. But that’s their choice.


Opinion alert:

Barnes saying that Jesus turned water into grape juice is just naive — but that’s just my illogical thinking talking

 

[Ted-01]

I'm finding this thread a bit confusing... so forgive me if I'm a little off track.

I think that it's untenable to hold a belief that wine (in general) was anything but a fermented beverage that contained alcohol. Though, I'm sure that the alcohol content varied.

As to the wine that Jesus created, I just don't really know where it fell in regard to alcohol content but suspect that it did. While I'm not an expert on the practices of ancient Israeli wedding feasts, I always took it for granted that the typical celebration included typical wine, where some folks would overindulge... that being the case, Jesus' wine probably would have created true wine, completely fermented.

 

[Ted-01]

@tonychanyt - Tony, I tried to translate the Latin source that you cited, (lib. iv. c. 13), and got this:

it follows the frequently changing names of haemonia, the same pelasgicon and pelasgicon argos, hellas, the same thessaly and dryopus, always surnamed after kings. there he was born a king named greek, from whom greece; there hellen, from whom hellenes. homer called these three names myrmidon, hellenes, and achaeus. from these phthiotes are named dorida accolentes. their towns were urchins, in the jaws of the thermopylae of the sperchium river, on which an argument [iii] from there was called heraclea trechin. mount callidrome; towns celebrated hellas, halos, vampires, phthia, arne.

Perhaps a typo?

 

[tonychanyt]

OK, here's a rough line of statements and a conclusion. This takes a lot of mental effort. I'd rather just blurt out what I think.

-- wine makes a man feel glad

-- Jesus made wine that was good

-- Jesus wine was better than the other wine

-- Jesus wine could make men glad better than the other wine.

-- grape juice is not drunk to make a man feel glad

-- grape juice is drunk to quench a thirst and provide energy

-- grape juice is drunk commonly, maybe at every meal

-- celebrations are not common like every meal

-- John’s story is one of seven miracles of Jesus

-- The objective of John’s writing was to help the reader believe in Jesus

-- A story of Jesus turning water into grape juice wouldn’t mean to much a reader

-- A story of Jesus turning water into the best wine that made everyone glad adds more weight to believing in Jesus

Now you need to use the above to deduce your conclusion, i.e., you need to show the deductive steps.

Conclusion:

Therefore, Jesus created good wine (not grape juice) that the wedding guests enjoyed drinking.

Opinion alert:

Barnes saying that Jesus turned water into grape juice is just naive — but that’s just my illogical thinking talking

Right. At least you know that

 

[tonychanyt]

wine (in general) was anything but a fermented beverage that contained alcohol

Who disagreed with that?

 

[rturner76]

I bet the wine was "heavenly." Actually I know that because they had the best wine they could get and the guests said something to the effect of "Normally they bring out the good wine first but you have saved the best wine for the end." Delicious I bet, but don't drink too much......otherwise that's drunkenness and a sin. Take a sip or two with your mean but don't down a a whole skinfull to the face!

 

[tonychanyt]

otherwise that's drunkenness

verse?

 

[rturner76]

verse?

Ephesians 5:18: "Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery.

Galatians 5:19–21: "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: ... drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

 

[Ted-01]

Who disagreed with that?

Apparently, Mr. Barnes did! lol

According to Barnes, what the wedding banquet MC called "good wine" was what we call "grape juice" today.

Grape juice isn't wine, IMHO.

 

[tonychanyt]

Apparently, Mr. Barnes did! lol

Can you quote his words to prove your point?